Re: [cm] Re: pitch adjustment, integer detectors, etc.

Bob!

BVAL@... wrote:

> yes, a kindergartener would say "the overtone series". Then you pick
> up
> a guitar and play a C13 chord, and compare it to 4-5-6-7-9-11-13 and
> say, "well geee, thats not really it at all". I was dissappointed to
> see the book 'Lies my music teacher taught me' making these sorts of
> claims.

There is a big differance here. it all fell apart at the seventh cause
the tuning could not "handle" the 7th so the progession fell apartand
those higher harmonics are much easier explained as chains od simplier
ratios. You can't get close to an 11 in 12 equal, the tritone will be
heard as a 5 of the 9 as one possibility, not the only

>
> I started my quest with exactly this belief, and my first experiments
> got me off of that track. I'm not exactly sure WHAT Western 'rich'
> chordal practices are based on, but I THINK it has a lot more with
> triad stacks (based originally on a JI trad) which are then warped
> till
> they settle to some minimum energy level (which still can have a nice
> buzz to it). (I guess I'm a kook that think that whatever JdLs program
>
> does, te basic intent is correct, IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT HAPPENS WITH
> SUSTAINED CHORDS. Melodic cinsiderations and what happens when you mix
>
> them are another thing).
>
> I'm not saying that overtones aren't where all this stuff starts out,
> and in McLarens post (where he was needlessly rude to you for three
> paragraphs, but I skipped that part) after making the great claims
> about inharmonic timbres being the majority of natural sounds he
> points out that harmonic timbres seem to be the majority of musical
> sounds. Works for me, I think.
>
> Bob Valentine
>
> >
> > -- Kraig Grady
> >
>
>
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In crazy_music@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> Bob!
>
> BVAL@I... wrote:
>
> > yes, a kindergartener would say "the overtone series". Then you pick
> > up
> > a guitar and play a C13 chord, and compare it to 4-5-6-7-9-11-13 and
> > say, "well geee, thats not really it at all". I was dissappointed to
> > see the book 'Lies my music teacher taught me' making these sorts of
> > claims.
>
> There is a big differance here. it all fell apart at the seventh cause
> the tuning could not "handle" the 7th so the progession fell apartand
> those higher harmonics are much easier explained as chains od simplier
> ratios. You can't get close to an 11 in 12 equal, the tritone will be
> heard as a 5 of the 9 as one possibility, not the only
>

My point was, I believe the buzz is coming from b7-9 being a major third
and the 9-#11-13 being a major triad. To say that a jazzers
1-3-5-b7-9-#11-13 stack is an approximation of the 4-5-6-7-9-11-13
ratios from the overtone series ignores musical expectations of that
sound. One can come up with RI approximations that (MAY) pull this off,
(untested, not even sure if the math is right, let alone the sound)
20:25:30:36:45:54.

Even with the RI interpretation, it doesn't seem that it matches the
idea of sequentially going up the overtone series. Brian also made a
nice "pocket history" of harmonic deveopment that was non-linear.

You said in another post (and Brian seems to agree with this viewpoint
in his comments regarding Jackies higher prime experiments) something to
the effect that the ear/brain/mind is much more capable of distinguishing
the uniqueness of higher primes than we give it credit for.

I'm still trying to reconcile this with "the fifth is 700+-20c, maybe
more". I agree with this view since it matches my
limited experience. My ear/brain/mind will fudge things from
"way off" to be in a low-integer pocket. Case in point, playing
with "7/6" via 31tet subsets (a good approximation). A few days
later I played with quartertones, and my ears could more easily
assign "7/6"-ness to 250c rather than "wide second" or some other
interpretation.

Bob Valentine

>
> -- Kraig Grady

Bob!
I am saying the same thing, once the seventh is added things starrt to
come unglued. I don't think the 12 ET can represent the 4-5-6-7-9-11-13
dispite any newspeak title Jazzboe what to call it.

BVAL@... wrote:

>
> My point was, I believe the buzz is coming from b7-9 being a major
> third
> and the 9-#11-13 being a major triad. To say that a jazzers
> 1-3-5-b7-9-#11-13 stack is an approximation of the 4-5-6-7-9-11-13
> ratios from the overtone series ignores musical expectations of that
> sound. One can come up with RI approximations that (MAY) pull this
> off,
> (untested, not even sure if the math is right, let alone the sound)
> 20:25:30:36:45:54.
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In crazy_music@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> Bob!
> I am saying the same thing, once the seventh is added things starrt to
> come unglued. I don't think the 12 ET can represent the 4-5-6-7-9-11-13
> dispite any newspeak title Jazzboe what to call it.
>

Excellent, so we are in violent agreement here. However, this started
with your assertion that the addition of sevenths, ninths etc was
Western Music climbing up the overtone series. If we look at when
these trends occurred, they occurred during an era when some sort
of temperment was well established, and any prime identities higher
5 were basically not present. However, the referential ideas I
mentioned were certainly present, since the notes were being moved
around to foster perfect transposition (even though they were losing
other colors, as they'd already lost the 7-limit intervals that was
present in some of the meantones).

Okay, we don't have to beat a dead horse to death.

Bob

Paul!
Hope you don't mind an aside on this point.
I tend to lean toward the idea of integer ratios as a sonic gestalt
analogous to the triangle, square and other primary geometric shapes
with our vision. It would explain actual deviations fron the ideal as
having that quality. Example. if we see a parallelogram with 89% angles
we will first see it as a square or as having squareness. It seems that
there is a band around the 3/2 that we will here as having "Fifthness"
or 3/2 ness. or better yet the octave having range where we hear it as
having octiveness. Partch mentioned such range of influence of different
intervals.
Brian ghas correctly shown that such things can be overrun by other
factors when he states the 5/9 will sound like a fifthe will sound like
a "fifth" but the 10/18 won't even though they are the same size. Lost
his actual example on this, but take him to be sincere in this
observation. i myself have heard scales that were the "opposite" of a
diatonic sequence of LLSLLLS being SSLSSSL and starting on the first L,
i think it was, sounding like a diatonic!

Paul Erlich wrote:

> Wouldn't it be better to say "harmonic series extractor" rather
> than "integer detector"? The mechanism itself may or may not have
> anything to do with the "integer" aspect of the harmonic series. .

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm