Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Mordecai Sandberg

I have seen/heard this:

http://www.afmm.org/p51page.htm

and it was brilliant!!!

Not much I knew about Sandberg but that was a great beginning!

I checked the internet and not much about his tuning used
which seems to be quartertones. Right?

J-STORE has an article about him which doesn't talk about the
tuning or instruments

I checked the RILM and I got this only one article:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Brotbeck, Roman. 2001. Flucht in die Praxis--Flucht aus der Praxis:
Die amerikanischen Pioniere der Mikrotonalität Julián Carrillo,
Harry Partch und Mordecai Sandberg. 2001. Munich, Germany:
Musikedition Nymphenburg. pp. 43-78 1993. Collection:
“Mikrotöne IV: Bericht über das 4. Internationale Symposion
Mikrotonforschung--Musik mit Mikrotönen--Ekmelische Musik”,
2.-5. May 1991 in Salzburg.

Abstract:
Following biographical sketches, the three quite different
and equally unorthodox attitudes toward the practice of composition
exhibited by Carrillo, Partch, and Sandberg are discussed.
These attitudes made them outsiders, but must be taken into
account in assessing the quality and individuality of their
respective music, as these composers are otherwise not
linked with any definable stylistic trend of the 20th c. (author)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

I can understand why Partch and Carrillo were outsiders but
I do not get Sanberg's comparison with them! So I guess
there must be some information about his instruments and
tuning theories (which he used to teach apparently!).

Does anyone know???

Tony Salians

🔗J.A.Martin Salinas <tony@tonysalinas.com>

The Grove 2007 says:

Sandberg, Mordecai...

... he began to compose and perform music in a tuning system
approximating just intonation.
He gave courses in aural training to sensitize the public to
microtonal intervals, constructed
microtonal instruments to use in demonstrations, and obtained aquarter-tone harmonium.
He designed and had built a twelfth-sixteenth-tone harmonium from
Straube of Berlin (1929).
...
Only a small fraction of his approximately 20,000 pages of music
manuscript has been published.

------------------------------------------

Hi Johnny!

Mordecai Sandberg's work seems fascinating! Great job!

Nothing said on the TUning List's archives apart the AFMM performance of
Psalm #51" for soprano orchestra (polymicrotonal).

1) What are the tunings used on this piece?

2) Does anyone on the list know about the tunings used in any of his
works (list provided)

3) Does anyone have any of his bibliography or scores (list
provided), or are they available
somewhere?

WORKS
(selective list)
Vocal: Koheleth I (Bible: Ecclesiastes), 1v, pf, 1925, pubd; The
Vision of Isaiah, Bar, org, 1934, pubd; Ezkerah
[I Remember] (orat), SATB, orch, 1938–52, pubd; Sim shalom, S, T,
Bar, org, 1938, pubd; Shelosh Esrei Midot
[The Thirteen Attributes], Bar, org, 1940, pubd; Tel-Aviv, 1v, pf,
1941, pubd; A Little Palestinian New Year’s Festival
(Bible, Ps xv, Ps cxxviii, trad.), various, 1946, pubd; Sym. Pss,
SATB, orch, 1951–5, pubd: vol. 1 (Pss i–v), vol. 2 (Pss vi–x),
vol. 14 (Pss cxx–cxxxv); many other psalm settings, settings of other
Biblical and liturgical texts
Orch: Demosthenes, ov., 1925; Sym. no.1, 1925; Sym. no.2, 1928; Sym.
no.5, 1939–53;
The Five Points, 1942; Conc., cl, str, 1943; Sym. no.4, 1944–59;
Orah, 1947; Sym. no.3, 1948–53
Chbr and solo inst: Elohai neshama, 3 fl, a fl, eng hn, b cl, 1926;
Elisha, fantasy, vn, pf, 1938, pubd;
Orah no.2, vn, pf, 1940; Str Qt no.1, 1941; Hymn, Aria, Dance, cl,
pf, 1943; Palestinian Suite, vc, microtonal org, 1943;
Ezekiel 34, vn, quarter-tone org, 1945; Orah no.3, str qt, 1945; 3
Sonata, vn, 1945–8; The Song of Songs (Sonata no.3),
vn, 1945, pubd; Jerusalem, hymn, va, pf, 1948, pubd; 3 Sonatas, va,
1948; Ps cxxx, eng hn, pf, 1949, pubd;
Pf Qnt ‘The Five Points’, 1951, pubd; Sextet, cl, str qt, pf, 1951, pubd
Kbd: 4 Little Preludes, pf, 1925–9; Sonata no.1, quarter-tone hmn,
1927; Sonata, pf, 1943–6; Sonata no.6, C, bichromatic org, 1946;
Sonata, A, pf, 1948, pubd

BIBLIOGRAPHY
M. Sandberg: Die Tondifferenzierung und ihre Bedeutung (Leipzig, 1930)
C. Heller: ‘Mordecai Sandberg: his Compositions and his Ideas’,
Journal of Synagogue Music, xiv/1 (1984), 9–26
J. Mandelbaum: ‘Mordecai Sandberg’, Musica Judaica, x/1 (1987–8), 81–91
R. Brotbeck: ‘Volkerverbinderde Tondifterenzierwng: Mordecai Sandberg
– ein verkanter Pionier der Mikrotonalität’ Neuezeitschrift für Musik
(1991), 38–44
A. Clarkson: ‘Mordecai Sandberg: a Catalogue of his Music’, Musica
Judaica, xiii (1993–4), 18–81

On 2007/10/08, at 3:19, J.A.Martin Salinas wrote:

> I have seen/heard this:
>
> http://www.afmm.org/p51page.htm
>
> and it was brilliant!!!
>
> Not much I knew about Sandberg but that was a great beginning!
>
> I checked the internet and not much about his tuning used
> which seems to be quartertones. Right?
>
> J-STORE has an article about him which doesn't talk about the
> tuning or instruments
>
> I checked the RILM and I got this only one article:
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> --------
> Brotbeck, Roman. 2001. Flucht in die Praxis--Flucht aus der Praxis:
> Die amerikanischen Pioniere der Mikrotonalität Julián Carrillo,
> Harry Partch und Mordecai Sandberg. 2001. Munich, Germany:
> Musikedition Nymphenburg. pp. 43-78 1993. Collection:
> “Mikrotöne IV: Bericht über das 4. Internationale Symposion
> Mikrotonforschung--Musik mit Mikrotönen--Ekmelische Musik”,
> 2.-5. May 1991 in Salzburg.
>
>
> Abstract:
> Following biographical sketches, the three quite different
> and equally unorthodox attitudes toward the practice of composition
> exhibited by Carrillo, Partch, and Sandberg are discussed.
> These attitudes made them outsiders, but must be taken into
> account in assessing the quality and individuality of their
> respective music, as these composers are otherwise not
> linked with any definable stylistic trend of the 20th c. (author)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> --------
>
> I can understand why Partch and Carrillo were outsiders but
> I do not get Sanberg's comparison with them! So I guess
> there must be some information about his instruments and
> tuning theories (which he used to teach apparently!).
>
> Does anyone know???
>
> Tony Salians
>
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
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> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

From Tony:
Hi Johnny, The music is so beautiful! ... I like it almost as much as I like
Koran recitation!

JR: Sandberg composed in Hebrew. Often his scores are right to left as a
result. The singer was Dorein Verheijden. We had worked together before, and
it gave me a good reason to make a visit to Arnhem in The Netherlands.

TS: The instruments sounded very unique and the voice very natural!

JR: Actually, the instruments, except the keyboard, were quite traditional.
The tuning does bring out unusual colors, though.

TS: I wish I could speak Jewish to understand the words too!

JR: It's straight old testament, supposedly written by David.

NOTATION

1) When you said subdivision of the tone, you mean the 12edo tone or
the 9/8 ?

JR: 12edo tone.

2) I s the notation indicated with tablature ? respecting stave
notation?

JR: No, Mordecai invented notation you can find in Gardner Read's
Microtonal Notation. He had thirds of tones, sevenths of tones, even unmeasurebles.
I'll get you a scan of the notation if you don't have Gardner Read's book.

Thanks

You're welcome!

Johnny

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>

🔗Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@yahoo.com>

Carlos,

I find your list of 250 scales of interest, and I'm
sending a copy of it to Siem Terpstra in the
Netherlands.

I think it would be helpful if you were to explain
your unique and mysterious coding system so we mortals
could benefit from it too.

Marco

--- Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com> wrote:

> In the interests of developing some more composition
> and analysis
> patterns, I have compiled a list of more than 250
> scales, which some
> tunaniks may also find interesting and useful.
>
> The original was produced in a FileMaker database
> format, which can
> also be exported to Excel or a comma separated file.
>
> If anyone wants it in this or other formats, let me
> know, and I'll
> email you a copy.
>
> It is in pdf format here:
>
> http://www.lucytune.com/250ScaleCoding.pdf
>
>
> Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com
>
> ----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning
> -----
>
> For information on LucyTuning go to:
> http://www.lucytune.com
>
> LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
> Skype user = lucytune
>
> http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>

Hi Mark:

I'm glad you asked;-)

ScaleCoding is a system which John Gibbon, Jonathan Glasier and I devised one evening in the Los Angeles forest.

<Quick summary follows:>
The first number (before the /) is the length of the chain of fifths from which the scale is constructed. e.g. Eb to F# = Eb-Bb-F-C-G-D-A-E-B-F# i.e. 9 steps therefore (9/)
The last number is the position of the tonic in that chain. e.g. C is in the fourth position. i.e therefore (/4)
The digits between are the positions in the chain which are missing in the particular scale being coded.

e.g. there is no D and no E in this example therefore /68/ is in the centre position between the /68/

So the total scalecoding is 9/68/4 which uniquely represents the scale which uses the notes C-Eb-F-F#-G-A-Bb-B.

I have been playing with this system for about fifteen years now, and the more I use it, the more I realise that we came up with a system that works extremely well:

It is:
easy to understand;
key and notename independent;
works perfectly with any meantone-type tuning system;
(and can be used for other tuning systems by converting them to their meantone approximations):
matches all the concepts of western harmony;
and gives a clear indication of consonance and dissonance, (particularly used with LucyTuning)

[i.e. notes closer on the chain of fourths and fifths when played together are more consonant-sounding that those which have more steps between them.]

I had thought about scales and how to categorise them for many years, and that evening with John and Jonathan made us realise that we had all independently been thinking about the same problem.

So we turned on a tape recorder, and discussed it. This system was the result, and works much better than any other system that I have ever stumbled across.

****** (Challenge opportunity here!!!!!) *****

(Are you reading Carl?;-)

details and links are here:

http://www.lucytune.com/new_to_lt/pitch_05.html

Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com

----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----

For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com

LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Skype user = lucytune

http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning

On 8 Oct 2007, at 16:56, Mark Rankin wrote:

> Carlos,
>
> I find your list of 250 scales of interest, and I'm
> sending a copy of it to Siem Terpstra in the
> Netherlands.
>
> I think it would be helpful if you were to explain
> your unique and mysterious coding system so we mortals
> could benefit from it too.
>
> Marco
>
> --- Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com> wrote:
>
> > In the interests of developing some more composition
> > and analysis
> > patterns, I have compiled a list of more than 250
> > scales, which some
> > tunaniks may also find interesting and useful.
> >
> > The original was produced in a FileMaker database
> > format, which can
> > also be exported to Excel or a comma separated file.
> >
> > If anyone wants it in this or other formats, let me
> > know, and I'll
> > email you a copy.
> >
> > It is in pdf format here:
> >
> > http://www.lucytune.com/250ScaleCoding.pdf
> >
> >
> > Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com
> >
> > ----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning
> > -----
> >
> > For information on LucyTuning go to:
> > http://www.lucytune.com
> >
> > LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
> > http://www.lullabies.co.uk
> >
> > Skype user = lucytune
> >
> > http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning
> >
> >
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: > mail, news, photos & more.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
>
>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>

Yes I realised that, having spend a few years in Spanish and German speaking countries;

It would be even more useful if some smart person could write a simple Javascript (to put on the net) which would enable users to list the notes in a scale and get the scalecoding;

And then in reverse input the scalecoding, and the tonic notename, and have the notes in the scale delivered in ascending order.

I did once write an AmigaBasic program which did this, but the hard drive eventually died, and my various Amigas are rotting away in a shed in Hawaii, and my attic here in London.

Any volunteers?

Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com

----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----

For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com

LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Skype user = lucytune

http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning

On 8 Oct 2007, at 17:23, Carl Lumma wrote:

> Hi Mark- just a note, it was Charles Lucy that posted
> this, not me, in case I am who you meant by "Carlos".
>
> -Carl
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@...>
> >
> > Carlos,
> >
> > I find your list of 250 scales of interest, and I'm
> > sending a copy of it to Siem Terpstra in the
> > Netherlands.
> >
> > I think it would be helpful if you were to explain
> > your unique and mysterious coding system so we mortals
> > could benefit from it too.
> >
> > Marco
> >
> >
> > --- Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
> >
> > > In the interests of developing some more composition
> > > and analysis
> > > patterns, I have compiled a list of more than 250
> > > scales, which some
> > > tunaniks may also find interesting and useful.
> > >
> > > The original was produced in a FileMaker database
> > > format, which can
> > > also be exported to Excel or a comma separated file.
> > >
> > > If anyone wants it in this or other formats, let me
> > > know, and I'll
> > > email you a copy.
> > >
> > > It is in pdf format here:
> > >
> > > http://www.lucytune.com/250ScaleCoding.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > > Charles Lucy lucy@...
>
>
>

🔗Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@yahoo.com>

Carlumma,

This time I *was* thinking of my longtime English
friend and John Harrison fan, Charles Lucy - I forgot
about the ambiguity generated by the double Carloses!

I won't make that mistake again.

Is Carlumma acceptable to you for the time being, or
should I move on to Carl Marx Lumma or some other
bastardization?

I'm alphabetically challenged in that I seem unable to
merely repeat familiar names over and over -
eventually I feel compelled to alter them for, I
suppose, diversity's sake!

Marq

--- Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org> wrote:

> Hi Mark- just a note, it was Charles Lucy that
> posted
> this, not me, in case I am who you meant by
> "Carlos".
>
> -Carl
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mark Rankin
> <markrankin95511@...>
> >
> > Carlos,
> >
> > I find your list of 250 scales of interest, and
> I'm
> > sending a copy of it to Siem Terpstra in the
> > Netherlands.
> >
> > I think it would be helpful if you were to explain
> > your unique and mysterious coding system so we
> mortals
> > could benefit from it too.
> >
> > Marco
> >
> >
> > --- Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
> >
> > > In the interests of developing some more
> composition
> > > and analysis
> > > patterns, I have compiled a list of more than
> 250
> > > scales, which some
> > > tunaniks may also find interesting and useful.
> > >
> > > The original was produced in a FileMaker
> database
> > > format, which can
> > > also be exported to Excel or a comma separated
> file.
> > >
> > > If anyone wants it in this or other formats, let
> me
> > > know, and I'll
> > > email you a copy.
> > >
> > > It is in pdf format here:
> > >
> > > http://www.lucytune.com/250ScaleCoding.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > > Charles Lucy lucy@...
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

Hi Charles,

Not a bad system, but surely you also need to specify the size of the
fifth (at least approximately)? And what about scales that consist of
more than one chain of fifths separated by an aliquot part of an
octave, or strict JI?

-- Dave Keenan

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark:
>
> I'm glad you asked;-)
>
> ScaleCoding is a system which John Gibbon, Jonathan Glasier and I
> devised one evening in the Los Angeles forest.
>
> <Quick summary follows:>
> The first number (before the /) is the length of the chain of fifths
> from which the scale is constructed. e.g. Eb to F# = Eb-Bb-F-C-G-D-A-
> E-B-F# i.e. 9 steps therefore (9/)
> The last number is the position of the tonic in that chain. e.g. C is
> in the fourth position. i.e therefore (/4)
> The digits between are the positions in the chain which are missing
> in the particular scale being coded.
>
> e.g. there is no D and no E in this example therefore /68/ is in the
> centre position between the /68/
>
> So the total scalecoding is 9/68/4 which uniquely represents the
> scale which uses the notes C-Eb-F-F#-G-A-Bb-B.
>
> <End of quick summary:>
>
> I have been playing with this system for about fifteen years now, and
> the more I use it, the more I realise that we came up with a system
> that works extremely well:
>
> It is:
> easy to understand;
> key and notename independent;
> works perfectly with any meantone-type tuning system;
> (and can be used for other tuning systems by converting them to their
> meantone approximations):
> matches all the concepts of western harmony;
> and gives a clear indication of consonance and dissonance,
> (particularly used with LucyTuning)
>
> [i.e. notes closer on the chain of fourths and fifths when played
> together are more consonant-sounding that those which have more steps
> between them.]
>
>
> I had thought about scales and how to categorise them for many years,
> and that evening with John and Jonathan made us realise that we had
> all independently been thinking about the same problem.
>
> So we turned on a tape recorder, and discussed it. This system was
> the result, and works much better than any other system that I have
> ever stumbled across.
>
> ****** (Challenge opportunity here!!!!!) *****
>
> (Are you reading Carl?;-)
>
> details and links are here:
>
> http://www.lucytune.com/new_to_lt/pitch_05.html
>
>
>
> Charles Lucy lucy@...
>
> ----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----
>
> For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com
>
> LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
> Skype user = lucytune
>
> http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning
>
>
> On 8 Oct 2007, at 16:56, Mark Rankin wrote:
>
> > Carlos,
> >
> > I find your list of 250 scales of interest, and I'm
> > sending a copy of it to Siem Terpstra in the
> > Netherlands.
> >
> > I think it would be helpful if you were to explain
> > your unique and mysterious coding system so we mortals
> > could benefit from it too.
> >
> > Marco
> >
> > --- Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
> >
> > > In the interests of developing some more composition
> > > and analysis
> > > patterns, I have compiled a list of more than 250
> > > scales, which some
> > > tunaniks may also find interesting and useful.
> > >
> > > The original was produced in a FileMaker database
> > > format, which can
> > > also be exported to Excel or a comma separated file.
> > >
> > > If anyone wants it in this or other formats, let me
> > > know, and I'll
> > > email you a copy.
> > >
> > > It is in pdf format here:
> > >
> > > http://www.lucytune.com/250ScaleCoding.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > > Charles Lucy lucy@...
> > >
> > > ----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning
> > > -----
> > >
> > > For information on LucyTuning go to:
> > > http://www.lucytune.com
> > >
> > > LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
> > > http://www.lullabies.co.uk
> > >
> > > Skype user = lucytune
> > >
> > > http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning
> > >
> > >
> >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket:
> > mail, news, photos & more.
> > http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
> >
> >
>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>

Thanks Dave;

I suppose one should assume that the fifth is somewhere close to 700 cents dependent upon the system.

With more than one fifth, I guess you have to make a choice, and then consider the relationship from that choice to the other fifth(s).

Since I am usually working with about 695 as my fifth, it makes my life fairly simple.

I did warn that it was designed for meantone-type tunings, and that other tuning systems would have to assume approximations.

After all it is intended as a system for codifying scales (not tunings) and for that purpose I would expect people to tolerate a fairly loose resolution (say plus or minus 10 cents).

Although it certainly works well for meantone-types (which includes many edos 19, 31, 52, 88 etc.) its application to JI intervals will inevitably be approximations, which might be good enough for

R 'n' R ;-).

For chains of up to about 8 or 10 steps the choices are fairly obvious for pos or neg meantones, yet the more steps you wish to map the greater the ambiguities which could occur with other tuning systems.

Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com

----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----

For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com

LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Skype user = lucytune

http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning

On 9 Oct 2007, at 00:17, Dave Keenan wrote:

> Hi Charles,
>
> Not a bad system, but surely you also need to specify the size of the
> fifth (at least approximately)? And what about scales that consist of
> more than one chain of fifths separated by an aliquot part of an
> octave, or strict JI?
>
> -- Dave Keenan
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mark:
> >
> > I'm glad you asked;-)
> >
> > ScaleCoding is a system which John Gibbon, Jonathan Glasier and I
> > devised one evening in the Los Angeles forest.
> >
> > <Quick summary follows:>
> > The first number (before the /) is the length of the chain of fifths
> > from which the scale is constructed. e.g. Eb to F# = Eb-Bb-F-C-G-> D-A-
> > E-B-F# i.e. 9 steps therefore (9/)
> > The last number is the position of the tonic in that chain. e.g. > C is
> > in the fourth position. i.e therefore (/4)
> > The digits between are the positions in the chain which are missing
> > in the particular scale being coded.
> >
> > e.g. there is no D and no E in this example therefore /68/ is in the
> > centre position between the /68/
> >
> > So the total scalecoding is 9/68/4 which uniquely represents the
> > scale which uses the notes C-Eb-F-F#-G-A-Bb-B.
> >
> > <End of quick summary:>
> >
> > I have been playing with this system for about fifteen years now, > and
> > the more I use it, the more I realise that we came up with a system
> > that works extremely well:
> >
> > It is:
> > easy to understand;
> > key and notename independent;
> > works perfectly with any meantone-type tuning system;
> > (and can be used for other tuning systems by converting them to > their
> > meantone approximations):
> > matches all the concepts of western harmony;
> > and gives a clear indication of consonance and dissonance,
> > (particularly used with LucyTuning)
> >
> > [i.e. notes closer on the chain of fourths and fifths when played
> > together are more consonant-sounding that those which have more > steps
> > between them.]
> >
> >
> > I had thought about scales and how to categorise them for many > years,
> > and that evening with John and Jonathan made us realise that we had
> > all independently been thinking about the same problem.
> >
> > So we turned on a tape recorder, and discussed it. This system was
> > the result, and works much better than any other system that I have
> > ever stumbled across.
> >
> > ****** (Challenge opportunity here!!!!!) *****
> >
> > (Are you reading Carl?;-)
> >
> > details and links are here:
> >
> > http://www.lucytune.com/new_to_lt/pitch_05.html
> >
> >
> >
> > Charles Lucy lucy@...
> >
> > ----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----
> >
> > For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com
> >
> > LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
> > http://www.lullabies.co.uk
> >
> > Skype user = lucytune
> >
> > http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning
> >
> >
> > On 8 Oct 2007, at 16:56, Mark Rankin wrote:
> >
> > > Carlos,
> > >
> > > I find your list of 250 scales of interest, and I'm
> > > sending a copy of it to Siem Terpstra in the
> > > Netherlands.
> > >
> > > I think it would be helpful if you were to explain
> > > your unique and mysterious coding system so we mortals
> > > could benefit from it too.
> > >
> > > Marco
> > >
> > > --- Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In the interests of developing some more composition
> > > > and analysis
> > > > patterns, I have compiled a list of more than 250
> > > > scales, which some
> > > > tunaniks may also find interesting and useful.
> > > >
> > > > The original was produced in a FileMaker database
> > > > format, which can
> > > > also be exported to Excel or a comma separated file.
> > > >
> > > > If anyone wants it in this or other formats, let me
> > > > know, and I'll
> > > > email you a copy.
> > > >
> > > > It is in pdf format here:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.lucytune.com/250ScaleCoding.pdf
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Charles Lucy lucy@...
> > > >
> > > > ----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning
> > > > -----
> > > >
> > > > For information on LucyTuning go to:
> > > > http://www.lucytune.com
> > > >
> > > > LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
> > > > http://www.lullabies.co.uk
> > > >
> > > > Skype user = lucytune
> > > >
> > > > http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________________
> > > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your > pocket:
> > > mail, news, photos & more.
> > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
> After all it is intended as a system for codifying scales (not
> tunings) and for that purpose I would expect people to tolerate a
> fairly loose resolution (say plus or minus 10 cents).

An excellent point, which I failed to grasp the first time, and in the
light of which my complaints appear churlish.

Thanks for clarifying.

For specifying _scales_ one only needs to understand that the fifths
are in some kind of meantone.

The golden meantone fifth would be a very practical default assumption
as it should allow even non-meantone-derived scales such as pelog to
be approximated to the accuracy you describe, on a relatively short chain.

As I expect you are aware, the golden meantone is the one that least
resembles a subset of any ET, or putting it another way it is the one
that is the farthest from closing on itself as the chain is extended
indefinitely, thereby allowing better and better approximations to any
_tuning_ not merely any scale.

-- Dave Keenan

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>

No Dave I didn't realise or know that using phi as the ratio between the Large and small intervals had the effect that you describe.

Dave said:
"The golden meantone fifth would be a very practical default assumption
as it should allow even non-meantone-derived scales such as pelog to
be approximated to the accuracy you describe, on a relatively short chain.

I have yet to understand why that should apply to phi, and not to pi;-)

These seem to be the best-known adjacent meantone-type tunings:

Name:
Formula:
Fifth:
Large cents
small cents

88 edo
(1200/88)*((3*14)+9)
695.45
190.91
122.73
LucyTuning
2(^(1/(2*pi))
695.49
190.99
122.54
Wilson's Meta-Meantone
many values
695.63
191.26
121.85
Kornerup Phi
phi={(5^(1/2)+1)/2}
L=(s*phi)
696.21
192.43
118.93

You obviously have some insight into the phi tuning, which has escaped me.
Please elaborate.

Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com

----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----

For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com

LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Skype user = lucytune

http://www.myspace.com/lucytuning

On 9 Oct 2007, at 03:36, Dave Keenan wrote:

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

Hi Charles,

I found this explanation.
http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibnat2.html
Read the section "Why does phi appear in plants".

It's about leaves not shading each other. Any irrational will fail to
close, but phi is the "most" irrational in this regard, apparently
because its continued fraction expression is the simplest.

It may be that the difference between the pi and phi tunings in this
regard is not very great, but it might be worth investigating.

-- Dave Keenan

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
>
> No Dave I didn't realise or know that using phi as the ratio between
> the Large and small intervals had the effect that you describe.
>
>
> Dave said:
> "The golden meantone fifth would be a very practical default assumption
> as it should allow even non-meantone-derived scales such as pelog to
> be approximated to the accuracy you describe, on a relatively short
> chain.
>
> As I expect you are aware, the golden meantone is the one that least
> resembles a subset of any ET, or putting it another way it is the one
> that is the farthest from closing on itself as the chain is extended
> indefinitely, thereby allowing better and better approximations to any
> _tuning_ not merely any scale."
>
>
> I have yet to understand why that should apply to phi, and not to pi;-)
>
> These seem to be the best-known adjacent meantone-type tunings:
>
> Name:
> Formula:
> Fifth:
> Large cents
> small cents
>
>
> 88 edo
> (1200/88)*((3*14)+9)
> 695.45
> 190.91
> 122.73
> LucyTuning
> 2(^(1/(2*pi))
> 695.49
> 190.99
> 122.54
> Wilson's Meta-Meantone
> many values
> 695.63
> 191.26
> 121.85
> Kornerup Phi
> phi={(5^(1/2)+1)/2}
> L=(s*phi)
> 696.21
> 192.43
> 118.93
>
> You obviously have some insight into the phi tuning, which has
> escaped me.
> Please elaborate.

Mordecai Sandberg - outsider?

🔗J.A.Martin Salinas <tony@tonysalinas.com>

🔗J.A.Martin Salinas <tony@tonysalinas.com>

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>

🔗Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@yahoo.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>

🔗Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@yahoo.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@lumma.org>

🔗Charles Lucy <lucy@harmonics.com>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗Graham Breed <gbreed@gmail.com>