Re: Traditional repertoire piano recordings in non-standard tunings,

Mitsuko Uchida's Mozart Sonatas, Keith Jarrett's Harrison Piano Concerto.

djw

Daniel,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf@...> wrote:
>
> Mitsuko Uchida's Mozart Sonatas, Keith Jarrett's Harrison Piano
Concerto.

Thanks for those. I've got the Harrison, which is a bit outside for
the beginning of our investigation, but I didn't realize Uchida had
recorded in period tunings. I've always loved her playing (seen her a
few times live, to die for) and I'll take a look for those.

Cheers,
Jon

This wonderful recording

http://tinyurl.com/28od4e

was performed in historical temperament on Mozart's
own fortepiano, by Andreas Schiff.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Daniel,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf@> wrote:
> >
> > Mitsuko Uchida's Mozart Sonatas, Keith Jarrett's Harrison Piano
> Concerto.
>
> Thanks for those. I've got the Harrison, which is a bit outside for
> the beginning of our investigation, but I didn't realize Uchida had
> recorded in period tunings. I've always loved her playing (seen her a
> few times live, to die for) and I'll take a look for those.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

Uchida tunes her own instruments, btw., and the tuning is her own
intuitive tweaking of meantone. A fantastic musician.

djw

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Daniel,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Wolf <djwolf@> wrote:
> >
> > Mitsuko Uchida's Mozart Sonatas, Keith Jarrett's Harrison Piano
> Concerto.
>
> Thanks for those. I've got the Harrison, which is a bit outside for
> the beginning of our investigation, but I didn't realize Uchida had
> recorded in period tunings. I've always loved her playing (seen her
a
> few times live, to die for) and I'll take a look for those.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

Mozart's own piano? I'd be surprised if the original temperament had
lasted so long - in my experience, fortepianos go out of tune in a few
weeks, if not days.

Or do you mean "historical" in inverted commas, meaning corresponding
to some 20th-century expert's opinion of what historical tuning ought
to have been? For someone who's keen on accuracy of usage, Carl should
be a bit more picky...

'Intuitive variation of meantone' is frustratingly even vaguer.
Presumably Uchida actually knows, consciously and in more or less
technical detail, exactly what she is doing - so how should it be
'intuitive'? I don't know anyone who has learnt to tune pianos by
intuition. Of course she might be intentionally obfuscating to
preserve the indefinable mystique of her Art. I bet it's actually
Kirnberger or something damn close.
If it were anywhere as unequal as real meantone (context police
alert!) people would notice immediately that it sounded totally unlike
the usual piano sound.

Pure thirds don't make that much sense to me on modern pianos (I think
Uchida uses a Yamaha) anyway, given the inharmonic clang.

Any less vague information on the actual tunings used would be welcome!

~~~T~~~

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> This wonderful recording
>
> http://tinyurl.com/28od4e
>
> was performed in historical temperament on Mozart's
> own fortepiano, by Andreas Schiff.
>
> -Carl
>

It would be easy to discover what tuning she is actually using by running each pitch example thru software analysis e.g. melodyne; spear; etc.

Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com

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On 1 Oct 2007, at 15:25, Tom Dent wrote:

>
> Mozart's own piano? I'd be surprised if the original temperament had
> lasted so long - in my experience, fortepianos go out of tune in a few
> weeks, if not days.
>
> Or do you mean "historical" in inverted commas, meaning corresponding
> to some 20th-century expert's opinion of what historical tuning ought
> to have been? For someone who's keen on accuracy of usage, Carl should
> be a bit more picky...
>
> 'Intuitive variation of meantone' is frustratingly even vaguer.
> Presumably Uchida actually knows, consciously and in more or less
> technical detail, exactly what she is doing - so how should it be
> 'intuitive'? I don't know anyone who has learnt to tune pianos by
> intuition. Of course she might be intentionally obfuscating to
> preserve the indefinable mystique of her Art. I bet it's actually
> Kirnberger or something damn close.
> If it were anywhere as unequal as real meantone (context police
> alert!) people would notice immediately that it sounded totally unlike
> the usual piano sound.
>
> Pure thirds don't make that much sense to me on modern pianos (I think
> Uchida uses a Yamaha) anyway, given the inharmonic clang.
>
> Any less vague information on the actual tunings used would be > welcome!
>
> ~~~T~~~
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
> >
> > This wonderful recording
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/28od4e
> >
> > was performed in historical temperament on Mozart's
> > own fortepiano, by Andreas Schiff.
> >
> > -Carl
> >
>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Charles Lucy <lucy@...> wrote:
>
> It would be easy to discover what tuning she is actually using by
> running each pitch example thru software analysis e.g. melodyne;
> spear; etc.

To what accuracy? My equipment doesn't suck and I'm not
inexperienced in this kind of thing, but I'd certainly
hesitate to call it "easy".

-Cameron Bobro

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote:
>
>
> Mozart's own piano? I'd be surprised if the original
> temperament had lasted so long

:)

Of cousre the piano was rebuilt and retuned at least once
since the great master passed.

> Or do you mean "historical" in inverted commas, meaning
> corresponding to some 20th-century expert's opinion of what
> historical tuning ought to have been?

Yes, that.

> For someone who's keen on accuracy of usage, Carl should
> be a bit more picky...

I'm sorry to disappoint.

> 'Intuitive variation of meantone' is frustratingly even vaguer.
> Presumably Uchida actually knows, consciously and in more or less
> technical detail, exactly what she is doing - so how should it be
> 'intuitive'? I don't know anyone who has learnt to tune pianos by
> intuition.

I do. A friend of mine has tuned pianos professionally for
50 years and doesn't really know how he does it. Most harpsichord
players I've talked to learned some bearing plan from their
teacher at some point and do it mostly by feel, without much
thinking.

> Pure thirds don't make that much sense to me on modern pianos
> ... anyway, given the inharmonic clang.

How do you define pure? I think beatless thirds sound marvelous
on the piano.

But as it happens, you're wrong about the degree of inharmonicity.
In the center four octaves of any instrument in good condition,
the pure thirds tuned by, say, a electronic guitar tuner (or
strobe tuner) will not be appreciably different than beatless
thirds tuned by ear.

-Carl

> > It would be easy to discover what tuning she is actually using by
> > running each pitch example thru software analysis e.g. melodyne;
> > spear; etc.
>
> To what accuracy? My equipment doesn't suck and I'm not
> inexperienced in this kind of thing, but I'd certainly
> hesitate to call it "easy".

Depending on the length of the isolated notes you could catch
her playing, you could get it within a couple cents I should
think.

-Carl