New Terminology

What we have here is essentially an international tuning congress, and we
have the opportunity to clarify, redefine and tighten up the terminology
necessary for tuning-literate musicians, composers and theorists to
interact. It seems useful to have four broad categories describing equal
division tunings. The following have been proposed or are in common
use:

EDI- equal division of an interval, contains the following:
EDO- equal division of the octave
ET- equal temperament, an EDO close to a set of just intervals

These seem reasonable to me. I intend to use them consistently unless
reasonable objections are raised. I think there is nothing wrong with
defining new terminology or redefining old terms when it is apparent that
they have become restrictive. We are in a unique position to clarify the
subject, simply because we care enough about it to discuss improvements.
If we agree on and use consistent terminology, it is likely that the rest
of the world will follow.

John Starrett
http://www-math.cudenver.edu/~jstarret/microtone.html

>That anyone else would think it were anything worth looking at at all
>probably only speaks to the fact that there is some degree of
>dissatisfaction afloat with some elements of some standard tuning
>terminology.

There is a great deal of dissatisfaction, and rightfully so. But the terms
I'm concerned with aren't "temperament" or "microtone". I'm much more
concerned with "mode", "5th", "JI", etc. We recently won a great victory
with "adaptive" and "strict" JI.

>>Use your own funky terms if you want, but why insist that somebody
>>else does too? If it ain't broke...
>
>Hmm, that sounds mightily like the 'argument' my friends (and
>not-friends) offer when I attempt to interest them in the possible
>virtues of microtonality too...

Give me a break.

-Carl

[Carl Lumma:]
>There is a great deal of dissatisfaction, and rightfully so. But the
terms I'm concerned with aren't "temperament" or "microtone".

Fair enough, but apparently others are.

>I'm much more concerned with "mode", "5th", "JI", etc.

Well I'm certainly interested in hearing what your concerns are and
how you'd hope to address them, but I'm also pretty sure that these
too could just as easily be brushed off with an "if it ain't broke..."
by someone else to whom they seem just fine the way they are.

>Give me a break.

Apparently you don't think so, 'ey? The subject matter (and importance
of it) may be entirely different (and in truth I tend to agree with
you when you say, "what we have works" here, and I'm actually fairly
ambivalent about the whole idea of precision terminology, or at least
don't see it as being all that terribly important), but your
'position' or 'argument' or 'mindset' here is one that I have indeed
heard again and again when attempting to pitch the *possible* virtues
of microtonality to those who don't happen to see any need for it
whatsoever... the upshot being "indulge in whatever funky whatever you
want, just don't bore me with it 'cause what I got ain't broke, and if
it ain't broke..."

Mr. Kludgy

[Mr. Kludgy]
>>Give me a break.
>
>Apparently you don't think so, 'ey?

No, I don't. I gave good reasons for my views, and an alternative to your
kludgy terminology. Unless you disagree about that, how many 12tET-only
folks do you know give good reasons to support their views?

[Mr. Kludgy]
>>I'm much more concerned with "mode", "5th", "JI", etc.
>
>Well I'm certainly interested in hearing what your concerns are and
>how you'd hope to address them,

You don't have to hear _about_ them. Until now, I've spared you that. You
can hear them directly in two years of postings to this list.

>but I'm also pretty sure that these too could just as easily be brushed off
>with an "if it ain't broke..." by someone else to whom they seem just fine
>the way they are.

Actually, they can't. Mode is used to mean circular permutation, and
subset. I suggest it only mean circular permutation, and that is the only
way I use it. I use subset for subset. 5th is used to mean the 5th degree
of a scale, and any approximate 3/2. I only use it to mean 5th degree; I
use 3/2 to mean 3/2. I've been over the JI thing many, many times.
Another important concern is differentiating intervals from pitches. The
excellent suggestion of using : and / was made here some months back. As
recent event show, I need to be more careful about this one.

[John Starrett]
>I believe that there is something broke here, and that is a
>consistent accurate shorthand for different tuning classes. All
>suggestions are welcome.

See TD 464.4 for my suggestions. Something's broke, alright. EDO? So 14
EDO is the 14th equal division of the octave? Putting the troubles of
"octave" aside, what is the 14th division? Attack! Fall back and re-group!

-Carl

[Carl Lumma:]
>I gave good reasons for my views,

I would think that most everyone would say the same... no?

>and an alternative to your kludgy terminology

Why thank you! The kindness... the generosity... the

>You don't have to hear _about_ them. Until now, I've spared you
that. You can hear them directly in two years of postings to this
list.

The kindness... the generosity... the arrogance... the

[I, Mr. Kludgy, wrote:]
>but I'm also pretty sure that these too could just as easily be
brushed off with an "if it ain't broke..." by someone else to whom
they seem just fine the way they are.

[Mr. Carl responded:]
> Actually, they can't. [etc.]

Why of course not... silly silly me.

Dan

Carl Lumma wrote,

>Mode is used to mean circular permutation, and
>subset. I suggest it only mean circular permutation, and that is the only
>way I use it.

Where have you seen it used to mean subset? I mean, if someone lists the
modes in 12-tET, they are simply listing the scales in 12-tET but with
circular permutations differentiated. The implication of subset is in the
word "in", not in the word "mode".

>5th is used to mean the 5th degree
>of a scale, and any approximate 3/2. I only use it to mean 5th degree; I
>use 3/2 to mean 3/2.

Standard musical terminolgy is to say "5th degree" for the 5th degree of a
scale, and "fifth" to refer to the interval subtended by 5 scale degrees,
wherever it occurs in the scale. For example, the interval between the 2nd
degree and the 6th degree is referred to as a 5th. Do you propose to
eliminate the latter usage?

>>Mode is used to mean circular permutation, and
>>subset. I suggest it only mean circular permutation, and that is the only
>>way I use it.
>
>Where have you seen it used to mean subset?

All over the place. Scala comes to mind. Several articles I've read in
1/1. Classical theory is usually better about it.

>>5th is used to mean the 5th degree of a scale, and any approximate 3/2. I
>>only use it to mean 5th degree; I use 3/2 to mean 3/2.
>
>Standard musical terminolgy is to say "5th degree" for the 5th degree of a
>scale, and "fifth" to refer to the interval subtended by 5 scale degrees,
>wherever it occurs in the scale. For example, the interval between the 2nd
>degree and the 6th degree is referred to as a 5th. Do you propose to
>eliminate the latter usage?

Absolutely. [I should stress that it is _I_ who propose to eliminate it; I
do not presume to dictate how others should use language.]

-Carl