Septimal JI - new Handel sound file, adaptive shifts

Two things changed since the older recording:

I got a new harpsichord;

and

I tuned all intervals via 7-limit JI (rather than septimal meantone),
with 7/5 being an aug4 and 7/6 an aug6. This implies a minor 9th chord
of 28:35:42:50:60, for example.

Result here:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/groups/tuning_files2/files/tomd/

...Make sure the volume is high enough!

Concerning the project of adaptive septimal near-as-damn-it-JI for the
classics (possibly using 171- or 159- EDO steps), there seems to be a
clear rule of how to handle chord progressions.

It all hinges (as one might guess, being basically a 1/3 comma scheme)
on the minor thirds. Mostly you want them to be 6/5. But in the
dominant 7th and dim7 chords you need 25/21's, which are about 2/3
comma, or two steps, different.

To avoid any voice moving more than a single step between chords, if a
6/5 third has to proceed to a 25/21 (with the same nominals), the
upper voice must move down and the lower voice up.

Archetypal example:

CCEG -> AC#EG -> ACDF# -> GBDF -> GCCE

In the first chord change the G moves down a step and the E up a step.
In the second change A moves up a step and A-C should be a 25/21,
which means the C has not shifted at all. In the third change D moves
up one more step, which puts G back a pure fifth above the unchanged C.

There is an amusing connection with Stanhope's temperament, which has
C-G pure and 1/3 comma steps at G-D-A-E. The roots of chords in the
progression above (C,A,D,G,C) are at the pitches of the temperament!

~~~T~~~

I like these. They provide an intriguing tuning timbre combination.
Congrats on your new harpsichord!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote:
>
>
> Two things changed since the older recording:
>
> I got a new harpsichord;
>
> and
>
> I tuned all intervals via 7-limit JI (rather than septimal
meantone),
> with 7/5 being an aug4 and 7/6 an aug6. This implies a minor 9th
chord
> of 28:35:42:50:60, for example.
>
> Result here:
> http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/groups/tuning_files2/files/tomd/
>
> ...Make sure the volume is high enough!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote:
> Two things changed since the older recording:
>
> I got a new harpsichord;
>
> and
>
> I tuned all intervals via 7-limit JI (rather than septimal
> meantone), with 7/5 being an aug4 and 7/6 an aug6. This
> implies a minor 9th chord of 28:35:42:50:60, for example.
>
> Result here:
> http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/groups/tuning_files2/files/tomd/

Huge improvement on both counts, I'd say. Sounds freakin'
great. Do you still think you've heard it sung in this
tuning (I haven't)?

Can you play the whole piece this way? That'd be a hit!!

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote:

> I tuned all intervals via 7-limit JI (rather than septimal meantone),
> with 7/5 being an aug4 and 7/6 an aug6.

In my lingo, septimal meantone isn't a tuning. What is it to you?

Well, last December my 'septimal meantone' was what you hear in the
old sound file. To be precise I believe I had tried to tune the
meantone in which the aug6 is pure 7/4. (Splitting the difference
between meantones with pure 5/4 and pure 7/5...)

You are correct in that 'septimal meantone' doesn't mean any specific
tuning, however the description seemed reasonable for a variety of
meantone with particularly good approximations to certain simple
7-limit intervals.

To answer Carl - No, I don't consider that I have heard a choir sing
like that. It is an idealization of what a choir might have got if
they were accustomed to take cues from a (1/4-comma) meantone-tuned
accompaniment and tended from there towards just intervals.

Alas, it is impossible to do the whole piece, or even just one
movement, in JI with a harpsichord... unless in extremely short takes
with notes retuned in between!

Actually I am looking more at the Romantic repertoire as a field of
application for the septimal (adaptive) JI framework. Eg 'Waldesnacht'
by Brahms, which has quite a lot of tricky corners in it.

~~~T~~~

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@> wrote:
>
> > I tuned all intervals via 7-limit JI (rather than septimal meantone),
> > with 7/5 being an aug4 and 7/6 an aug6.
>
> In my lingo, septimal meantone isn't a tuning. What is it to you?
>

> Actually I am looking more at the Romantic repertoire as a field
> of application for the septimal (adaptive) JI framework.
> Eg 'Waldesnacht' by Brahms, which has quite a lot of tricky
> corners in it.
>
> ~~~T~~~

I would like to hear Brahm's German Requiem in this fashion.
I did a brief stint with the Oakland Symphony Chorus the season
they did it. What a piece.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote:

> Well, last December my 'septimal meantone' was what you hear in the
> old sound file. To be precise I believe I had tried to tune the
> meantone in which the aug6 is pure 7/4. (Splitting the difference
> between meantones with pure 5/4 and pure 7/5...)

Our old pal the 56^(1/10) fifth--even closer to 31-et than the
5^(1/4) fifth.

Tom Dent wrote:
> Two things changed since the older recording:
> > I got a new harpsichord;
> > and
> > I tuned all intervals via 7-limit JI (rather than septimal meantone),
> with 7/5 being an aug4 and 7/6 an aug6. This implies a minor 9th chord
> of 28:35:42:50:60, for example.

Hmm, a 7-limit JI scale with a 7/5 and 7/6, lots of 6/5 minor thirds ... is it anything like this, by any chance?

! parizek_ji1.scl
!
Petr Parizek, 12-tone septimal tuning, 2002.
12
!
21/20
9/8
7/6
5/4
21/16
7/5
3/2
63/40
5/3
7/4
15/8
2/1

This is a scale that I've rediscovered a couple of times (in different transpositions). It has a nice regular structure, and sounds pretty good as well.

This is quite close to my centaur tuning (1987) which i have on a few instruments tuned to.
see http://anaphoria.com/centaur.html if you lattice it out it only has one note difference and has a few more features. a just major scale and your two harmonic tetrads being a 3/2 apart. The modulations through your diatonics makes more musical sense.

Hmm, a 7-limit JI scale with a 7/5 and 7/6, lots of 6/5 minor thirds ...
is it anything like this, by any chance?

! parizek_ji1.
scl
!
Petr Parizek, 12-tone septimal tuning, 2002.
12
!
21/20
9/8
7/6
5/4
21/16
7/5
3/2
63/40
5/3
7/4
15/8
2/1
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:
>
> is it anything like this, by any chance?
>
> ! parizek_ji1.scl
> !
> Petr Parizek, 12-tone septimal tuning, 2002.
> 12
> !
> 21/20
> 9/8
> 7/6
> 5/4
> 21/16
> 7/5
> 3/2
> 63/40
> 5/3
> 7/4
> 15/8
> 2/1
>
> This is a scale that I've rediscovered a couple of times (in different
> transpositions). It has a nice regular structure, and sounds pretty
good
> as well.

Sorry, I made a silly typo. 7/4 is the aug6, not 7/6. I do have a 7/6
which is an aug2, inverted to give a dim7 of 12/7.

The excerpt is in A minor. Relative to A=1/1, I believe I tuned

Bb 15/14
B 9/8 in tenor octave; 28/25 in middle octave
C 6/5
C# 5/4
D 4/3
D# 7/5
E 3/2
F 8/5
F# 5/3
G 25/14
G# 15/8

- perhaps if you redefine F=1/1 it might look more similar? But it is
certainly not, cannot be, a 12-tone scale.

~~~T~~~