Rock n' Roll Tuning

Since the world seems to be so fond of 4-chord rock, I thought, why
not look at rock n' roll tuning.

Let's take CM-FM-GM-am, a typical progression for garage bands.

By notes of the scale, let's see how many times a degree is used,
and what part of a chord it is based on:

C D E F G A B
3 1 2 1 2 2 1

C D E F G A B
1 1 1 1
3 3 3 3
5 5 5 5

Yahoo will mess this up, surely, so Hit Reply to see it correctly.
Notice how every combination of 3, 2 and 1 are represented equally.
(135, 13, 15, 35, 1, 3, 5)

By chord:

C D E F G A B
C F G a
a C F G
F G a C

If it were just:

1,5,3,15,9,45,27 -> 32,40,48,60,72,90,108

In order,

24, 27, 30, 32, 36, 40, 45

Roots involved, by just measure:

C D E F G A B
24 32 36 36
40 24 32 36
32 36 40 32

This can be reduced:

C D E F G A B
6 8 9 9
10 6 8 9
8 9 10 8

So there are some fun patterns.

PGH

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G Hjelmstad"
<paul.hjelmstad@...> wrote:
>
> Since the world seems to be so fond of 4-chord rock, I thought, why
> not look at rock n' roll tuning.
>
> Let's take CM-FM-GM-am, a typical progression for garage bands.
>
> By notes of the scale, let's see how many times a degree is used,
> and what part of a chord it is based on:
>
> C D E F G A B
> 3 1 2 1 2 2 1
>
> C D E F G A B
> 1 1 1 1
> 3 3 3 3
> 5 5 5 5
>
> Yahoo will mess this up, surely, so Hit Reply to see it correctly.
> Notice how every combination of 3, 2 and 1 are represented equally.
> (135, 13, 15, 35, 1, 3, 5)
>
> By chord:
>
> C D E F G A B
> C F G a
> a C F G
> F G a C
>
> If it were just:
>
> 1,5,3,15,9,45,27 -> 32,40,48,60,72,90,108
>
> In order,
>
> 24, 27, 30, 32, 36, 40, 45
>
> Roots involved, by just measure:
>
> C D E F G A B
> 24 32 36 40
> 40 24 32 36
> 32 36 40 32
>
> This can be reduced:
>
> C D E F G A B
> 6 8 9 10
> 10 6 8 9
> 8 9 10 8
>
> So there are some fun patterns.
>
> PGH
>
Corrected two errors - PGH

Paul G Hjelmstad wrote:

> Since the world seems to be so fond of 4-chord rock, I thought, why
> not look at rock n' roll tuning.
>
> Let's take CM-FM-GM-am, a typical progression for garage bands.

I'm preaching to the choir here, but the three basic chords of rock, especially punk rock, are I, IV, V, and you do use ii and vi sometimes. (I always call this kind of music "three-chord rock".)

> By notes of the scale, let's see how many times a degree is used,
> and what part of a chord it is based on:

[snip]

> If it were just:
>
> 1,5,3,15,9,45,27 -> 32,40,48,60,72,90,108

1 and 32 = F, and the chord is Fmaj13(#11), right? What you have forms the Ptolemy/Zarlino syntonon: 1/1 9/8 5/4 4/3 3/2 5/3 15/8 (with 1/1 = C). Of course adding Dm to the progression creates the comma problem, and another ratio for D, 10/9.

We're dealing with rock here, so don't forget the "blue" notes which the vocalist will likely use : 7/6 (Eb), 14/9 (Ad), and 7/4 (Bd). A meantone scale from F to A# would work, unless you need a "real" B-flat, then you have to figure out if you need 16/9 or 9/5.

And I'm glad you've brought the topic up, since I just ordered a Roland Oriental keyboard (you can retune notes on the fly, and not just to Arabic quarter tones), and I'm trying to get back in the Austin music scene as a singer, songwriter and instrumentalist. Except I'm more into progressive rock, which uses far more than three chords in songs.

~D.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G Hjelmstad"
<paul.hjelmstad@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G Hjelmstad"
> <paul.hjelmstad@> wrote:
> >
> > Since the world seems to be so fond of 4-chord rock, I thought,
why
> > not look at rock n' roll tuning.
> >
> > Let's take CM-FM-GM-am, a typical progression for garage bands.
> >
> > By notes of the scale, let's see how many times a degree is used,
> > and what part of a chord it is based on:
> >
> > C D E F G A B
> > 3 1 2 1 2 2 1
> >
> > C D E F G A B
> > 1 1 1 1
> > 3 3 3 3
> > 5 5 5 5
> >
> > Yahoo will mess this up, surely, so Hit Reply to see it correctly.
> > Notice how every combination of 3, 2 and 1 are represented
equally.
> > (135, 13, 15, 35, 1, 3, 5)
> >
> > By chord:
> >
> > C D E F G A B
> > C F G a
> > a C F G
> > F G a C
> >
> > If it were just:
> >
> > 1,5,3,15,9,45,27 -> 32,40,48,60,72,90,108
> >
> > In order,
> >
> > 24, 27, 30, 32, 36, 40, 45
> >
> > Roots involved, by just measure:
> >
> > C D E F G A B
> > 24 32 36 40
> > 40 24 32 36
> > 32 36 40 24
> >
> > This can be reduced:
> >
> > C D E F G A B
> > 6 8 9 10
> > 10 6 8 9
> > 8 9 10 6
> >
> > So there are some fun patterns.
> >
> > PGH
> >
> Corrected two errors - PGH

I should never post on Monday mornings. Two more errors corrected
One might even go so far as to say that my post is "trivial" -
almost - PGH

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Wier" <dawiertx@...> wrote:
>
> Paul G Hjelmstad wrote:
>
> > Since the world seems to be so fond of 4-chord rock, I thought,
why
> > not look at rock n' roll tuning.
> >
> > Let's take CM-FM-GM-am, a typical progression for garage bands.
>
> I'm preaching to the choir here, but the three basic chords of
rock,
> especially punk rock, are I, IV, V, and you do use ii and vi
sometimes. (I
> always call this kind of music "three-chord rock".)
>
> > By notes of the scale, let's see how many times a degree is used,
> > and what part of a chord it is based on:
>
> [snip]
>
> > If it were just:
> >
> > 1,5,3,15,9,45,27 -> 32,40,48,60,72,90,108
>
> 1 and 32 = F, and the chord is Fmaj13(#11), right? What you have
forms the
> Ptolemy/Zarlino syntonon: 1/1 9/8 5/4 4/3 3/2 5/3 15/8 (with 1/1 =
C). Of
> course adding Dm to the progression creates the comma problem, and
another
> ratio for D, 10/9.
>
> We're dealing with rock here, so don't forget the "blue" notes
which the
> vocalist will likely use : 7/6 (Eb), 14/9 (Ad), and 7/4 (Bd). A
meantone
> scale from F to A# would work, unless you need a "real" B-flat,
then you
> have to figure out if you need 16/9 or 9/5.
>
> And I'm glad you've brought the topic up, since I just ordered a
Roland
> Oriental keyboard (you can retune notes on the fly, and not just to
Arabic
> quarter tones), and I'm trying to get back in the Austin music
scene as a
> singer, songwriter and instrumentalist. Except I'm more into
progressive
> rock, which uses far more than three chords in songs.
>
> ~D.
>
Thanks for your post. We actually had an argument on my "Boogie
Woogie Tuning" post that a blues third is not based on seven,
because it is closer to major (between major and minor) and not
subminor. I don't think this issue was ever settled (not that
it can be settled!). There is something about CM-FM-GM-am, perhaps
it corresponds to the four kinds of base pairs of DNA? Ha ha.
As you said, dm throws off the scale. So its not as pure as
this progression. Three chord rock is a little boring. Here's what
I get:

C D E F G A B
2 1 1 1 2 1 1

C D E F G A B
1 1 1
3 3 3
5 5 5

C D E F G A B
C F G
C F G
F G C

C D E F G A B
24 16 36
24 16 36
16 36 24

C D E F G A B
6 8 9
6 8 9
8 9 6

Not nearly as "full", you don't get the complete combination thing
in the first grid. So I think there is more symmetry in C-F-G-a
four-chord rock n' roll, IMHO

PGH

Paul G Hjelmstad wrote:

> Thanks for your post. We actually had an argument on my "Boogie
> Woogie Tuning" post that a blues third is not based on seven,
> because it is closer to major (between major and minor) and not
> subminor. I don't think this issue was ever settled (not that
> it can be settled!).

I'll probably never be "settled"; too many personal preferences involved, and I don't think popular music should be standarized too much. But in old-school blues recordings, I always hear the "blue notes" as being flat, though I should listen to a lot more just to make sure. Monzo and others here have promoted the "septimal theory", I guess you could call it.

Or are you talking about *major* intervals in blues and rock as opposed to minor? Majors could just as well be 5-limit JI, though you could expressively bend it down to neutral, thus 11- or 13-limit.

> There is something about CM-FM-GM-am, perhaps
> it corresponds to the four kinds of base pairs of DNA? Ha ha.
> As you said, dm throws off the scale. So its not as pure as
> this progression. Three chord rock is a little boring. Here's what
> I get:

There's a thought, a song using a "GATTACA" chord progression...

Three-chord rock may be boring to hardcore classical, jazz and prog-rock buffs, but three-chord rock can be fun. The Ramones mastered the art of the two-minute three-chord song.

[snip]

> Not nearly as "full", you don't get the complete combination thing
> in the first grid. So I think there is more symmetry in C-F-G-a
> four-chord rock n' roll, IMHO

Makes sense, four chords being the fair balance, though the presence of A minor still makes me want to add D minor in there somewhere. Or D major, but you'll have to add F#-45/32 and A-27/16 to the scale then. (Or instead of 45/32, 7/5, which is normally my "blues" tritone.)

~D.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G Hjelmstad" <paul.hjelmstad@...>
wrote:
>
> Since the world seems to be so fond of 4-chord rock, I thought, why
> not look at rock n' roll tuning.
>
> Let's take CM-FM-GM-am, a typical progression for garage bands.

> So there are some fun patterns.

The most fun pattern is that you can tune this to 5-limit JI. This
sometimes happens with rock songs.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G Hjelmstad" <paul.hjelmstad@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Since the world seems to be so fond of 4-chord rock, I thought,
why
> > not look at rock n' roll tuning.
> >
> > Let's take CM-FM-GM-am, a typical progression for garage bands.
>
> > So there are some fun patterns.
>
> The most fun pattern is that you can tune this to 5-limit JI. This
> sometimes happens with rock songs.
>

Right, so to state the obvious:

C D E F G A B
6 8 9 10
10 6 8 9
8 9 10 6

Becomes

24, 27, 30, 32, 36, 40, 45

In 5-limit JI

(Hit Reply to see it correctly)