counterpoint & tuning, examples?

[ Attachment content not displayed ]

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, taylan <taylan.susam@...> wrote:
> Can anyone think of an example of two voices crossing at unison in
> counterpoint, where the tuning of the two pitches at unison is actually
> different, because of the relations implied by the (harmonic) context? (For
> instance, by a comma that would be tempered out if it were to be played in,
> say, 12edo.)

Hi Taylan.

I guess you mean where the note is spelled the same but would be tuned
differently in pure tuning. I guess the answer is no, because the only thing
that would imply a difference in tuning is the spelling of the note, and if a
note is doubled harmonically, it has the same harmonic function; I mean,
there wouldn't be a case where a double note is the fifth in one voice and
the root in the other - same note will be the same part of the chord; hence
the tuning will be the same.

Chromaticism in counterpoint is usually taught wrongly, or swept under the
rug. The following might be all elementary for you; just some thoughts that
come to mind ...

Another kind of example would involve notes that are enharmonic spellings,
like a G-sharp in an upper part moving upwards and an A-flat in a lower
part moving downwards, which would of course be tuned differently, but
generally such an example goes against the traditions of Western practice
for the very reason you have brought up, and composing that way isn't
part of Bach style counterpoint.

With rare exception, when sharps and flats appear together harmonically
in Bach they are part of a diminished seventh chord, or part of an
augmented sixth chord, or a dominant minor ninth chord, or if they
appear in succession they are usually chromatic upper and lower neighbor
tones.

Usually opposite enharmonic inflections usually do not appear in the
same measure, but sometimes they are close together. For example,
in B-minor an A-sharp is expected, not a B-flat, but in the Bm
prelude from WTC book 1 a B-flat in one measure is a diminished
seventh of a C# diminished 7th chord, and two bars later an
A-sharp appears as a leading tone to B as expected.

There are more rare chromatic passages in which opposite inflections
of a letter may appear within the same measure, such as in the Art of
Fugue Contrapunctus 4 where a D-sharp followed almost immediately
by a D-flat in another voice, in the same register.

In my opinion, the Art of Fugue and A Musical Offering are the best
scores to study to learn about Bach style chromaticism. There are really
some passages of harrowing dissonance in the Art of Fugue.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

Hi Taylan and Aaron (Hunt),

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, taylan <taylan.susam@> wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone think of an example of two voices crossing
> > at unison in counterpoint, where the tuning of the
> > two pitches at unison is actually different, because
> > of the relations implied by the (harmonic) context?
> > (For instance, by a comma that would be tempered out
> > if it were to be played in, say, 12edo.)
>
> Hi Taylan.
>
> I guess you mean where the note is spelled the same but
> would be tuned differently in pure tuning. I guess the
> answer is no, because the only thing that would imply
> a difference in tuning is the spelling of the note,
> and if a note is doubled harmonically, it has the
> same harmonic function; I mean, there wouldn't be a
> case where a double note is the fifth in one voice and
> the root in the other - same note will be the same part
> of the chord; hence the tuning will be the same.

I agree with Aaron on this: you're not likely to find
an example such as that which he describes. However ...

> Another kind of example would involve notes that are
> enharmonic spellings, like a G-sharp in an upper part
> moving upwards and an A-flat in a lower part moving
> downwards, which would of course be tuned differently,
> but generally such an example goes against the traditions
> of Western practice for the very reason you have brought
> up, and composing that way isn't part of Bach style
> counterpoint.

Aaron goes on to discuss counterpoint in Bach, where
this doesn't exactly happen. However, this is an example
from Mozart where this exactly *does* happen. We had
a discussion of it here almost a year ago, and i made
some Tonescape and MIDI files of the passage in question.
Read all about it here:

/tuning/topicId_58260.html#59268

When i wrote that, Tonescape was still in limited
Alpha-test release, but now it's available to the public
from our website homepage. It runs only on Windows XP.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Japanese music is filled with duets of like instruments that when when unisons occur they are played "off" in order to increase the independence of the voices. This practice even happens in extended unison writing. It is common for example in the playing of the flute like instruments in Gagaku. Balinese Wayang has two instruments one slightly tuned higher which results in the same type of effect
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles