puns

> ...'eaten by Wolves', ...'surreprising' ... 'I'm trying to
> have archaic and eat it, too'...

A HA HA HA HA HA !! I love it!

To how much more *pun*ishment must we be objected ?!

:)

-monz

Joseph L. Monzo Philadelphia monz@juno.com
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html
|"...I had broken thru the lattice barrier..."|
| - Erv Wilson |
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> Posted by: "Carl Lumma" carl@... clumma
>
> Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:22 pm (PDT)
>

>
> I have two questions:
>
> 1. Anybody know if Mathieu was the first to use the term "pun"?
>
> 2. Anybody know the first theorist to state that puns were a
> natural/desirable thing (as opposed to merely stating that comma
> shifts are bad)?
>
> -Carl
>

If we really want to find an earlier usage, then Tanaka's use of the term
"Verwechselung" carries precisely this sense and is not, in this context,
incorrectly translated as "pun".

It's a term that has definitely been in the air for a long time. I
certainly used it in a postive sense when teaching theory at Wesleyan in
'84 and '85. (I still have some of my worksheets illustrating meantone on
a toroid lattice with word "pun" over an arrow connecting tones ostensibly
a comma apart), David Feldman and I used in some research in those years,
and I definitely used it at my JIN talk in San Francisco in '88 or '89 in
discussing progressions like that Partch uses in The Letter and the
choruses in Oedipus. I either got the term from Leedy or Wilson or
perhaps from Makeig's dissertation, and that would have been in the late
1970's. In any case, given my enthusiam for the puns in Finnegans Wake
and in Duchamp, I was automatically attached to the term. I did write a
post in the Tuning list in the late 90's on types of intonational puns,
using types of literary puns (homophonic, heteronymic, portmanteau etc.)
to categorize them, but I don't have a copy of it myself anymore. (Like
most of my postings here, it went over like a lead balloon.)

djw

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Wolf" <djwolf@...> wrote:

> If we really want to find an earlier usage, then Tanaka's use
> of the term "Verwechselung" carries precisely this sense and is
> not, in this context, incorrectly translated as "pun".

Which original text would that be in? I've searched google
books for Tanaka and didn't find any original texts, alas.

> It's a term that has definitely been in the air for a long time.
> I certainly used it in a postive sense when teaching theory at
> Wesleyan in '84 and '85. (I still have some of my worksheets
> illustrating meantone on a toroid lattice with word "pun" over
> an arrow connecting tones ostensibly a comma apart),

When did Mathieu first use it? Harmonic Experience is showing
up as a 1997 publication -- I thought it was older than that!

> David Feldman and I used in some research in those years,
> and I definitely used it at my JIN talk in San Francisco in
> '88 or '89 in discussing progressions like that Partch uses
> in The Letter and the choruses in Oedipus. I either got the
> term from Leedy or Wilson or perhaps from Makeig's dissertation,
> and that would have been in the late 1970's.

Who's Makeig? Maybe he was first in the English language?

> In any case, given my enthusiam for the puns in Finnegans Wake
> and in Duchamp, I was automatically attached to the term.
> I did write a post in the Tuning list in the late 90's on types
> of intonational puns, using types of literary puns (homophonic,
> heteronymic, portmanteau etc.) to categorize them, but I don't
> have a copy of it myself anymore. (Like most of my postings
> here, it went over like a lead balloon.)

The only thing I could find in my archives is a 1999 post from
you where you mention that you made the post in question 'some
time ago'. Kraig replied that he must have missed it, and asked
for you to repost.

My archives go back further than Yahoo's. I don't know if
Robert Walker had some of the older Mills stuff -- I can't
find his archives at all today.

-Carl

2009/8/13 Carl Lumma <carl@...>:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Wolf" <djwolf@...> wrote:
>
>> If we really want to find an earlier usage, then Tanaka's use
>> of the term "Verwechselung" carries precisely this sense and is
>> not, in this context, incorrectly translated as "pun".
>
> Which original text would that be in?  I've searched google
> books for Tanaka and didn't find any original texts, alas.

I have a file "Shohe.PDF" that I got from Kraig's site.

Note that, from a previous discussion, a lot of other translations of
"Verwechselung" came up. I thought it was an older term, and in
Helmholtz, but sure enough I can't find it there.

> When did Mathieu first use it?  Harmonic Experience is showing
> up as a 1997 publication -- I thought it was older than that!

1997 is correct for the book.

Graham

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <carl@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Wolf" <djwolf@> wrote:
>
> > If we really want to find an earlier usage, then Tanaka's use
> > of the term "Verwechselung" carries precisely this sense and is
> > not, in this context, incorrectly translated as "pun".
>
> Which original text would that be in? I've searched google
> books for Tanaka and didn't find any original texts, alas.
>

His Berlin dissertation was published here:

Tanaka, Shohé, Studien im Gebiete der reinen Stimmung, Vierteljahrsschrift für Musikwissenschaft vol. 6 no. 1, Friedrich Chrysander, Philipp Spitta, Guido Adler (eds.), Breitkopf und Härtel, Leipzig, pp. 1-90

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
>
> 2009/8/13 Carl Lumma <carl@...>:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Wolf" <djwolf@> wrote:
> >
> >> If we really want to find an earlier usage, then Tanaka's use
> >> of the term "Verwechselung" carries precisely this sense and is
> >> not, in this context, incorrectly translated as "pun".
> >
> > Which original text would that be in?  I've searched google
> > books for Tanaka and didn't find any original texts, alas.
>
> I have a file "Shohe.PDF" that I got from Kraig's site.
>

I would not use that file. It was a rough translation of only a part of the text that I made for Larry Hansen's private use. It was published in XH without my permission; as it is both incomplete and rough, I would prefer that it not be used. I've asked Kraig to take it down at least once before.

djw

On Aug 13, 2009, at 8:21 PM, Graham Breed wrote:
> Note that, from a previous discussion, a lot of other translations of
> "Verwechselung" came up. I thought it was an older term, and in
> Helmholtz, but sure enough I can't find it there.

The term "Verwechselung" is typically used to denote that some pitch is replaced by its 12-ET enharmonic equivalent. Is there some English term for this?

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enharmonische_Verwechslung

Best
Torsten

--
Torsten Anders
Interdisciplinary Centre for Computer Music Research
University of Plymouth
Office: +44-1752-586219
Private: +44-1752-558917
http://strasheela.sourceforge.net
http://www.torsten-anders.de

>
>
> The term "Verwechselung" is typically used to denote that some pitch
> is replaced by its 12-ET enharmonic equivalent. Is there some English
> term for this?
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enharmonische_Verwechslung
>
> Best
> Torsten
>

The usage in German is — for better or worse — not consistant. My Brockhaus-Riemann, for example, says that "Von der enharmonische Umdeutung muß die enharmonische Verwechselung, die bloße schreibtechnische Auswechselung von # und b, geschieden werden." ("The enharmonic reinterpretation must be distinguished from enharmonic "Verwechslung", which is the simple exchange of sharp and flat".) But Tanaka is clearly using the term "Verwechsleung" for something rather more significant in terms of tonality than an exchange of accidentals, so perhaps, if he were writing today, he might prefer "Umdeutung".

English simply uses "enharmonic equivalence" for both purposes, which is a rather neutral phrase without Verwechselung's sense of "confusion" or "mistake" (often used playfully, hence my advocacy here for "pun"; the German terms for _Wortspielen_ closest to punning (_Kalauer_, _Flachwitz_, _Plattwitz_ etc.) don't have precisely the same status as pun in English).

The usage in Tanaka that is important is his identification of specific _Verwechselungen_: commatic, schismatic, and — of course — kleismic.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "djwolf_frankfurt" <djwolf@...> wrote:
>
> > > Which original text would that be in?  I've searched google
> > > books for Tanaka and didn't find any original texts, alas.
> >
> > I have a file "Shohe.PDF" that I got from Kraig's site.
> >
>
> I would not use that file.
> It was a rough translation of only a part of the text that I made for > Larry Hansen's private use. It was published in XH without my permission; as it is both incomplete and rough, I would prefer that it not be used. I've asked Kraig to take it down at least once before.

a similar original article can be found as facsimile-copy
here:
http://www.anaphoria.com/Shohe.PDF
some more links on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoh%C3%A9_Tanaka

bye
A.S.

Daniel.
The only paper up is Tanaka's Original. I do not have any copy of your article in PDF that i can find.
--

/^_,',',',_ //^ /Kraig Grady_ ^_,',',',_
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