Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet? -Ozan

Dear Oz,
We often disappoint, even when unintended. Sorry Western music bombarded so
much of the world negatively. Perhaps in microtonality we can bring the
world together. But do keep in mind that there is much more to “diverse
non-European peoples” than only Islamic peoples.
As we focus on music, among all the arts, you attentions to the Islamic
contributions in the “building of instrument to the singing of microtones,” and
how this would play out in the book just written would abe most valuable.
As for merry making with music, this has been going on since the beginning
of time. Presently, I know only of Islamic societies, be they few and far
between, that have made restrictions on music. But then again, so did the
ancient Greeks, according to Plato.
And of course, I can find that Islam can be more than a political identity.
I was wondering if it would be possible for you to distinguish a particular
people’s religious identification and influence from said people’s
contributions as a nation of people (in other words, somewhat independent of religious
influence)?
Um, “Mutazilite?” I can only guess at by context… Come again?
As for crying “Shame,” I don’t feel any for asking honest questions. Are
you interested in bullying or sharing perspectives? Is not this why you
indict the author of the book…for not participating in dialogue?
More seriously, after the horrific deaths of 3 non-Islamic Turks, it is
incumbent on all to recognize that Islam is not the entirety of Turkey, or of any
country. I would expect you, Ozan, to agree. Not another word from me
about the Taliban.
Best, Johnny

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

My dear Johnny,
----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@aol.com
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 22 Nisan 2007 Pazar 20:07
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet? -Ozan

Dear Oz,

We often disappoint, even when unintended.

Unavoidably so.

Sorry Western music bombarded so much of the world negatively.

Not only music, but culture in general. So much is to be said about Western supremacism.

Perhaps in microtonality we can bring the world together.

In sentiment, perhaps.

But do keep in mind that there is much more to “diverse non-European peoples� than only Islamic peoples.

That is why I put quotation marks around your phrase.

As we focus on music, among all the arts, you attentions to the Islamic contributions in the “building of instrument to the singing of microtones,� and how this would play out in the book just written would abe most valuable.

A joint effort by men of letters from both civilizations will serve those purposes better. A cross-cultural teamwork is still plausible.

As for merry making with music, this has been going on since the beginning of time. Presently, I know only of Islamic societies, be they few and far between, that have made restrictions on music.

What news channel are you watching? BBC? Fox? CNN? Tune in to some Islamobiased channels for a change instead of Islamophobic ones.

But then again, so did the ancient Greeks, according to Plato.

So, let not anyone be judgmental about anything based on hearsay.

And of course, I can find that Islam can be more than a political identity. I was wondering if it would be possible for you to distinguish a particular people’s religious identification and influence from said people’s contributions as a nation of people (in other words, somewhat independent of religious influence)?

The all-embracing supra-national context of Muslimhood precludes ethnocentrism. Unfortunately, the past century has seen the evisceration of the Islamic Civilization into petty and bickering factions all claiming to possess superior racial characteristics. It was the Age of Colonialism that awoke slumbering chauvanistic sentiments across the Middle East by the 18th century. "Turk" was originally a derogatory term employed by Christian Europe to mark Muslim inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire who migrated from Turkmenistan. We see increasing adoption of this term by Istanbulite Ottomans during the 19th century, probably as a reaction to the marauding fashion and etiquette of Europe. By early 20th century, the Westernist transformation of Anatolian peoples into a Turkish nation was complete.

So, I am tempted to agree that works of the past two or three centuries are shady - half Islamic, half-national (Turkish/Arabic/Persian). Very recently, Azeri, Armenian and Kurdish nationalities have emerged as well, which muddies the waters even more.

To answer your question, yes, it is possible for me to distinguish a contribution as Turkish in character, but not Islamic in culture. I see more and more bourgeois Turks forsake Islam under the guise of "modernism", and write unislamic books (depicting adultery, fornication, etc...), direct unislamic movies (nudity, sex, etc...), prepare unislamic dishes (bacon, pork, etc...), manufacture unislamic products (alcoholic beverages, tobacco, etc...), indulge in unislamic art (music and paintings praising materialism, etc...) all of which are Turkish, which isn't saying much. However, this trend is recent (dating half a century at most) and its followers are a "priviledged" few despised by the overwhelming majority of Muslims.

Um, “Mutazilite?� I can only guess at by context… Come again?

What? You heard nought of the great dialectical school of Islam from 12 centuries ago? Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%27tazilis

As for crying “Shame,� I don’t feel any for asking honest questions. Are you interested in bullying or sharing perspectives? Is not this why you indict the author of the book…for not participating in dialogue?

Do you see me bullying anyone around here irrespective of their ideas on divinity?

More seriously, after the horrific deaths of 3 non-Islamic Turks,

Which I do not approve.

it is incumbent on all to recognize that Islam is not the entirety of Turkey, or of any country. I would expect you, Ozan, to agree.

Islam has never been the entirety of any geography, no matter the intolerance of Muslim rulers to other faiths. Our religion makes provisions for peaceful coexistance with people of other creeds as long as they pay tribute. In an Islamic Democracy, the lives and rights of tributary non-muslims would have been under the protection of the law and state, with severe punishments on anyone (muslim or non-muslim) inflicting them harm. Such is not the case with quasi-Islamosecular Republics such as Turkiye. If you value your life, stay clear for the time being.

Not another word from me about the Taliban.

Good.

Best, Johnny

Oz.

> Not only music, but culture in general. So much is to be said
> about Western supremacism.

I don't know who is making claims about Western supremacism.
Like in the film The Gods Must Be Crazy, or in the creation
story from the book of Genesis, once the cat is out of the
no one can put it back. In the film, the pilot who threw
his soda bottle overboard was not made out to be happier
than the tribesmen below who recieved it. Like them, he is
probably using bottle technology whether he wants to or not.

Technology spreads, and can be disruptive. You can blame
it on Western culture, but really I think it's just the
nature of technology. Our culture in the West is seeing
disruptive change, too. Of course I am aware that the
most radical Islamists (or whatever you want to call them)
are quite willing to call Westerners victims of their own
culture. And they also think they have the answer. On
this latter point at least I must disagree.

In modern times, technology grew faster in the West than
elsewhere for some reason. Actually, it was probably just
historical accident. Since technology grows exponentially,
a little accident can make a big difference.

> let not anyone be judgmental about anything based on hearsay.

Here is a sentiment I can agree with. Unfortunately its
antithesis is usually practiced with respect to information
gathered through news services. From a music perspective,
I think Joe Deveau says it best. The relevant excerpt of
Find Out For Myself is available by listening to track 9,
here:

http://www.joedeveau.com/mp3_player_02.html

> What? You heard nought of the great dialectical school of Islam
> from 12 centuries ago? Here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%27tazilis

I've never heard of it. Thanks for the link.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:

> In modern times, technology grew faster in the West than
> elsewhere for some reason. Actually, it was probably just
> historical accident. Since technology grows exponentially,
> a little accident can make a big difference.

Up until the 18th century, Europe was not ahead of
the rest of the world in technology, though it
showed a kind of vitality in the way it vigorously
started in on colonizing the globe. The key
discovery, I think, was Newton's mathematical
physics, which lead to a quadruple feedback loop
of science, technology, economics, and mathematics.
Other parts of the world came close, but didn't
quite go over the line. Why it didn't spread to
the Ottoman Empire and thence to the Islamic world
is an interesting question which I don't know
enough to answer--in the 17th century, the Ottomans
were techmologically as advanced as anyone.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 23 Nisan 2007 Pazartesi 0:31
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet? -Ozan

> > Not only music, but culture in general. So much is to be said
> > about Western supremacism.
>
> I don't know who is making claims about Western supremacism.

Unconsciously, all modernist Turks for one thing.

> Like in the film The Gods Must Be Crazy, or in the creation
> story from the book of Genesis, once the cat is out of the
> no one can put it back. In the film, the pilot who threw
> his soda bottle overboard was not made out to be happier
> than the tribesmen below who recieved it. Like them, he is
> probably using bottle technology whether he wants to or not.
>

That film was so funny.

> Technology spreads, and can be disruptive. You can blame
> it on Western culture, but really I think it's just the
> nature of technology.

And humans who are in a position to manipulate technology have no part in
the degeneration of foreign cultures then? Think, that perde kurdi has moved
from 28/27 (63 cents) to 18/17 (99 cents) compared to perde dugah in the
past three centuries. You can hear qanuns perform Maqam Kurdilihijazkar with
equal tempered semitones today. Is just technology to blame?

Our culture in the West is seeing
> disruptive change, too. Of course I am aware that the
> most radical Islamists (or whatever you want to call them)
> are quite willing to call Westerners victims of their own
> culture. And they also think they have the answer. On
> this latter point at least I must disagree.
>

Westerners are inevitably facing the powerful tidal effects of having
clashed with a civilization that holds the Middle Eastern tectonic plate
together. As if having been pulled into the orbit of a gas giant, they will
naturally swerve off course. It's Shoemaker-Levy all over again.

> In modern times, technology grew faster in the West than
> elsewhere for some reason. Actually, it was probably just
> historical accident. Since technology grows exponentially,
> a little accident can make a big difference.
>

History is full of such accidents, all preordained since the day of
creation, unlike what Marxians may think. LOL.

> > let not anyone be judgmental about anything based on hearsay.
>
> Here is a sentiment I can agree with. Unfortunately its
> antithesis is usually practiced with respect to information
> gathered through news services. From a music perspective,
> I think Joe Deveau says it best. The relevant excerpt of
> Find Out For Myself is available by listening to track 9,
> here:
>
> http://www.joedeveau.com/mp3_player_02.html
>

Cool stuff.

> > What? You heard nought of the great dialectical school of Islam
> > from 12 centuries ago? Here:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%27tazilis
>
> I've never heard of it. Thanks for the link.
>

You're welcome.

> -Carl
>
>

Oz.

> > In modern times, technology grew faster in the West than
> > elsewhere for some reason. Actually, it was probably just
> > historical accident. Since technology grows exponentially,
> > a little accident can make a big difference.
>
> Up until the 18th century, Europe was not ahead of
> the rest of the world in technology,

Which is why I said "modern times".

> though it
> showed a kind of vitality in the way it vigorously
> started in on colonizing the globe. The key
> discovery, I think, was Newton's mathematical
> physics, which lead to a quadruple feedback loop
> of science, technology, economics, and mathematics.

It's the event traditionally credited with starting
the enlightenment. I think the common law culture
coming out of the Anglosphere was important.

> Other parts of the world came close, but didn't
> quite go over the line. Why it didn't spread to
> the Ottoman Empire and thence to the Islamic world
> is an interesting question which I don't know
> enough to answer--in the 17th century, the Ottomans
> were techmologically as advanced as anyone.

The Middle East may have been hurt by a 'first-start
disadvantage' (like friendster vs. myspace), or so
suggests Jared Diamond. Asia on the other hand, I
think was hurt by the lack of a phonetic language.
Another thing in Europe's favor was a highly curved
coastal geometry with diverse inland geography, and
a temperate climate (work 'n save).

Any time a difference in human phenotype is observed,
genetic factors are probably involved. Determining
causality though is tacky. Not to mention politically
unacceptable.

-Carl

What can of noodles have I opened here?

I was just asking an innocent question about a book that was new to me.

Since the thread seems to have sunk into a religious/cultural contest:

(BTW I agree with Karl Marx on his opiate statement about religion)

In response to the comment about European colonisation; Newton etc. you forgot to include John Harrison and the Brit. domination of the seas, which his work on navigation enabled.

Has anyone actual read this book by Donval?

Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com

----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----

For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com

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Skype user = lucytune

On 22 Apr 2007, at 22:54, Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > In modern times, technology grew faster in the West than
> > elsewhere for some reason. Actually, it was probably just
> > historical accident. Since technology grows exponentially,
> > a little accident can make a big difference.
>
> Up until the 18th century, Europe was not ahead of
> the rest of the world in technology, though it
> showed a kind of vitality in the way it vigorously
> started in on colonizing the globe. The key
> discovery, I think, was Newton's mathematical
> physics, which lead to a quadruple feedback loop
> of science, technology, economics, and mathematics.
> Other parts of the world came close, but didn't
> quite go over the line. Why it didn't spread to
> the Ottoman Empire and thence to the Islamic world
> is an interesting question which I don't know
> enough to answer--in the 17th century, the Ottomans
> were techmologically as advanced as anyone.
>
>
>

> And humans who are in a position to manipulate technology have
> no part in the degeneration of foreign cultures then? Think,
> that perde kurdi has moved from 28/27 (63 cents) to 18/17
> (99 cents) compared to perde dugah in the past three centuries.
> You can hear qanuns perform Maqam Kurdilihijazkar with
> equal tempered semitones today. Is just technology to blame?

You can think of cultural isolation and recombination as
a way of technology getting itself ahead, yes. A good
example is Cuban jazz. Or jazz at all. Eggs are always
broken.

> > Our culture in the West is seeing
> > disruptive change, too. Of course I am aware that the
> > most radical Islamists (or whatever you want to call them)
> > are quite willing to call Westerners victims of their own
> > culture. And they also think they have the answer. On
> > this latter point at least I must disagree.
>
> Westerners are inevitably facing the powerful tidal effects
> of having clashed with a civilization that holds the Middle
> Eastern tectonic plate together. As if having been pulled
> into the orbit of a gas giant, they will naturally swerve off
> course. It's Shoemaker-Levy all over again.

To be honest I think our conflict in the Middle East has
had an extremely minor effect on my life. A far greater
impact has been made by the rapid adoption of microwave
ovens, cell phones, two-income families, etc.

> > > let not anyone be judgmental about anything based on hearsay.
> >
> > Here is a sentiment I can agree with. Unfortunately its
> > antithesis is usually practiced with respect to information
> > gathered through news services. From a music perspective,
> > I think Joe Deveau says it best. The relevant excerpt of
> > Find Out For Myself is available by listening to track 9,
> > here:
> >
> > http://www.joedeveau.com/mp3_player_02.html
>
> Cool stuff.

It's a bit hard to understand the lyrics on this stream,
but he sings

I spent some time today reading the New York Times
It had a lot to say, revealing our daily crimes
But is this really possible?
I don't think it's possible.
But I rather find out for myself.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:

> > Other parts of the world came close, but didn't
> > quite go over the line. Why it didn't spread to
> > the Ottoman Empire and thence to the Islamic world
> > is an interesting question which I don't know
> > enough to answer--in the 17th century, the Ottomans
> > were techmologically as advanced as anyone.
>
> The Middle East may have been hurt by a 'first-start
> disadvantage' (like friendster vs. myspace), or so
> suggests Jared Diamond.

The Ottomans had become very conservative, and
that slowed them down. But why did they become,
and continue to be, so stodgy?

> Asia on the other hand, I
> think was hurt by the lack of a phonetic language.

You mean a phoentic alphabet? Japan, when it deciced
to modernize, did so very quickly. But I think the
Chinese system of writing wasn't helpful.

> Any time a difference in human phenotype is observed,
> genetic factors are probably involved. Determining
> causality though is tacky. Not to mention politically
> unacceptable.

Eh? Phenotypal differences, such as adaptations to
cold climate, low levels of sunlight, ability to
digest milk etc are often straightforward and PC.
The epicanthal fold is possibly adaptive, or it may
be just a founder effect. Etc. So far as I know,
nothing relevant to music or technology in there.
This century is likely to kick up a lot of stuff
about differences between populations, but we don't
actally know much as yet.

> > Asia on the other hand, I
> > think was hurt by the lack of a phonetic language.
>
> You mean a phoentic alphabet?

Yes.

> > Any time a difference in human phenotype is observed,
> > genetic factors are probably involved. Determining
> > causality though is tacky. Not to mention politically
> > unacceptable.
>
> Eh? Phenotypal differences, such as adaptations to
> cold climate, low levels of sunlight, ability to
> digest milk etc are often straightforward and PC.
> The epicanthal fold is possibly adaptive, or it may
> be just a founder effect. Etc. So far as I know,
> nothing relevant to music or technology in there.
> This century is likely to kick up a lot of stuff
> about differences between populations, but we don't
> actally know much as yet.

I'm about to send a sample in to the Geneography Project.
And my friend is working for the startup 23andme, which
should go live Q4. Gene chips, yo.

-Carl

> The Ottomans had become very conservative, and
> that slowed them down. But why did they become,
> and continue to be, so stodgy?

These kinds of things are I think 3rd-order
causes (and up). Diamond talks about the 1400AD
decree of some emperor or other to dismantle the
Chinese navy. Well, why did that stick?

-Carl

Carl Wrote:

"It's the event traditionally credited with starting
the enlightenment. I think the common law culture
coming out of the Anglosphere was important."

While anglophone culture has had its own dynamic, the continent, and France in particular, with its civil code legal system, was every bit a part of the enlightenment as common law countries. (Indeed, in France one finds a more consequent secularisation than in England).

Ozan wrote:

> Islam has never been the entirety of any geography, no matter the > intolerance of Muslim rulers to other faiths. Our religion makes > provisions for peaceful coexistance with people of other creeds as > long as they pay tribute.
As far as I am aware, the Quran only makes explicit provisions for Christians, Jews, and Sabians (the exact referend of Sabianism as used there is controversial); an extension of dhimmitude to people of other faiths has only been local, temporary, and controversial. Those who convert from Islam to another faith (or even the descendents of such converts, as among the Baha'i) are certainly not granted dhimmi status. While the dhimmi status, and the oft-cited injunction that there is to be no compulsion in religion seem to indicate a significant degree of tolerance, the quranic notions of saghiroon (submission) and jizya (monetary tribute) can only be taken as offensive to those who have other or no beliefs; indeed, in some faiths and to many people of conscious, acceptance of saghiroon and jizya would be considered apostacy or a betrayal of their fundamental values, thus Muslims demand from people of other faiths that they act in a way toward their own faith or conscious that would be impossible -- or punishable by death -- if a Muslim acted in the same way towards Islam.

A diversity of coexisting religions probably creates an inevitable competition among them and probably places an undue emphasis on their differences. The three major Abrahamic religions have an in-built tension due to their difference, a viscious circle even, in that one religion identifies the faithful with an ethnicity and -- at least, implicitly -- a state, a second opens the faith to all believers but severs itself from any identification with a temporal state, rendering unto God and Caesar different realms of human affairs, and the third is open to all but recognizes no division between faith and state. I believe that the lack of symmetry in relationships between Muslims and people of other faiths is always going to be a serious constraint on their coexistence. As long as Mosques can be built in Europe, but neither churches nor synagogues in Saudi Arabia, this will be a serious constraint; as long as conversion can only made in one direction (i.e. towards Islam), this will be a serious constraint; and as long Muslims speak of "no compulsion in religion" but act otherwise, one cannot expect any fundamental improvement. Pessmistically, I have the impression that this state of affairs is so built into the foundations of the faith -- a faith that permits no further prophesy -- that any substantial change is all but impossible.

djw

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 23 Nisan 2007 Pazartesi 1:52
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet? -Ozan

> > And humans who are in a position to manipulate technology have
> > no part in the degeneration of foreign cultures then? Think,
> > that perde kurdi has moved from 28/27 (63 cents) to 18/17
> > (99 cents) compared to perde dugah in the past three centuries.
> > You can hear qanuns perform Maqam Kurdilihijazkar with
> > equal tempered semitones today. Is just technology to blame?
>
> You can think of cultural isolation and recombination as
> a way of technology getting itself ahead, yes. A good
> example is Cuban jazz. Or jazz at all. Eggs are always
> broken.
>

I do not object to the development of new styles, but to the degeneration of
existing ones. I applaud Arabesque as the cry of oppressed classes, but
condemn Arabesque singers who think they can just as equally perform
classical works of Maqam Music. It's like an opera singer boasting of being
able to chant folk songs. We have them in abundance around these parts.

> > > Our culture in the West is seeing
> > > disruptive change, too. Of course I am aware that the
> > > most radical Islamists (or whatever you want to call them)
> > > are quite willing to call Westerners victims of their own
> > > culture. And they also think they have the answer. On
> > > this latter point at least I must disagree.
> >
> > Westerners are inevitably facing the powerful tidal effects
> > of having clashed with a civilization that holds the Middle
> > Eastern tectonic plate together. As if having been pulled
> > into the orbit of a gas giant, they will naturally swerve off
> > course. It's Shoemaker-Levy all over again.
>
> To be honest I think our conflict in the Middle East has
> had an extremely minor effect on my life. A far greater
> impact has been made by the rapid adoption of microwave
> ovens, cell phones, two-income families, etc.
>

Check your neighbourhood again. Mosques are being set about everywhere as we
speak, and thousands flock each day to the fold of Islam in the West.
Haven't you been watching the social turmoils in France?

SNIP

Oz.

I think Marx did not mean to condescend, but to honour the role of religion as a pain-killer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_is_the_opiate_of_the_masses

No, I haven't read Donval. Only making rash statements as usual.

Oz.
----- Original Message -----
From: Charles Lucy
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 23 Nisan 2007 Pazartesi 1:53
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet? - religion?????????

What can of noodles have I opened here?

I was just asking an innocent question about a book that was new to me.

Since the thread seems to have sunk into a religious/cultural contest:

(BTW I agree with Karl Marx on his opiate statement about religion)

In response to the comment about European colonisation; Newton etc. you forgot to include John Harrison and the Brit. domination of the seas, which his work on navigation enabled.

Has anyone actual read this book by Donval?

Asharites!

Anno 1500: Catholic/Protestant Europe was landlocked by Orthodox Russia and
Muslim Ottoman Empire in the East... It was a stalemate. Trade routes were
blocked, Mediterranean was swarming with the Ottoman fleet and Blacksea with
Russian-Cossack vessels. Europe had no choice but to risk the perils of the
Atlantic ocean in search for new wealth and glory. They literally struck
gold in the Americas and leeched out the resources of Far East via the
tradeposts they established with force in remote localities. In no less than
three centuries, Europe gained the upperhand, funded aristocratic arts and
sciences, initiated the Industrial Age in the 19th century, and toppled the
rest of the world... with the only exception of Japan who suffered crushing
defeat at the end of WWII, and communist countries who prospered after.

As for the Ottoman Empire, it struggled alright; tried everything it could
to compete with the West... even attempted to imitate Europe in manners and
culture, to no avail. It outdid herself, but could not escape her fate.
Mercantalism spelled disaster, capitalism ruin. In the end, she was
backstabbed by sharif hussein & sons to perish for all eternity in the
aftermath of WWI.

Ah, were Aeschylus, Euripides, and Sophocles here to conjointly write a play
on it. The tragedy!

The answer for why technological progress never made it into Ottoman
territories may be found in the first line of this post. Without the
scientific advances sanctioned by the intrepid thinking of Mu'tazilis,
Ottomans, Safavids, and Mughals doomed themselves to backwardness and
bigotry.

As for how all this affected music-making in Turkiye, no amount of words
could suffice in describing the harm done by reckless Westernism.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 23 Nisan 2007 Pazartesi 0:54
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet? -Ozan

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > In modern times, technology grew faster in the West than
> > elsewhere for some reason. Actually, it was probably just
> > historical accident. Since technology grows exponentially,
> > a little accident can make a big difference.
>
> Up until the 18th century, Europe was not ahead of
> the rest of the world in technology, though it
> showed a kind of vitality in the way it vigorously
> started in on colonizing the globe. The key
> discovery, I think, was Newton's mathematical
> physics, which lead to a quadruple feedback loop
> of science, technology, economics, and mathematics.
> Other parts of the world came close, but didn't
> quite go over the line. Why it didn't spread to
> the Ottoman Empire and thence to the Islamic world
> is an interesting question which I don't know
> enough to answer--in the 17th century, the Ottomans
> were techmologically as advanced as anyone.
>
>
>

On 23 Apr 2007, at 01:33, Ozan Yarman wrote:

> Think, that perde kurdi has moved
> from 28/27 (63 cents) to 18/17 (99 cents) compared to perde dugah > in the
> past three centuries. You can hear qanuns perform Maqam > Kurdilihijazkar with
> equal tempered semitones today. Is just technology to blame?

Hi Ozan

Sorry for my ignorance, but how did this happen and why?

Which technology could be blamed, if any?

I'm very interested in the question of technological determinism and
how technology directs (or channels) creativity.

So a question I'd be interesting to learn from all of you (but especially
those of non-Western culture) is:

How do you see modern digital technology (like synthesizers, samplers,
drum sequencers and music software) affecting your own musical
culture, especially considering that music software is normally 12-TET
designed for 4/4 rhythms and based upon Western score writing metaphors?

Do you think Western music-tool makers have to allow for more flexibility
considering other musical cultures, or is that just the job of software designers
in the respective culture? (Obviously Indian software designers should be
better at designing software for Indian music than the people at Steinberg,
Native Instruments or Apple.)

Ziauddin Sardar once wrote that the new imperialism/colonialism was
happening in the field of digital technology, where GUI design and the
internet was based on Western metaphors. (well, he wrote this before
9/11 so I'm sure he's got an advanced position today).

I am VERY interested in hearing your opinion.

thanks
thor

[ sorry if this mail has arrived already. I never got it or can't see it on the
yahoo mailing list ]

On 23 Apr 2007, at 01:33, Ozan Yarman wrote:

> Think, that perde kurdi has moved
> from 28/27 (63 cents) to 18/17 (99 cents) compared to perde dugah > in the
> past three centuries. You can hear qanuns perform Maqam > Kurdilihijazkar with
> equal tempered semitones today. Is just technology to blame?

Hi Ozan

Sorry for my ignorance, but how did this happen and why?

Which technology could be blamed, if any?

I'm very interested in the question of technological determinism and
how technology directs (or channels) creativity.

So a question I'd be interesting to learn from all of you (but especially
those of non-Western culture) is:

How do you see modern digital technology (like synthesizers, samplers,
drum sequencers and music software) affecting your own musical
culture, especially considering that music software is normally 12-TET
designed for 4/4 rhythms and based upon Western score writing metaphors?

Do you think Western music-tool makers have to allow for more flexibility
considering other musical cultures, or is that just the job of software designers
in the respective culture? (Obviously Indian software designers should be
better at designing software for Indian music than the people at Steinberg,
Native Instruments or Apple.)

Ziauddin Sardar once wrote that the new imperialism/colonialism was
happening in the field of digital technology, where GUI design and the
internet was based on Western metaphors. (well, he wrote this before
9/11 so I'm sure he's got an advanced position today).

I am VERY interested in hearing your opinion.

thanks
thor

Dear thor,

----- Original Message -----
From: thor
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 23 Nisan 2007 Pazartesi 17:16
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet? -Ozan

On 23 Apr 2007, at 01:33, Ozan Yarman wrote:

Think, that perde kurdi has moved

from 28/27 (63 cents) to 18/17 (99 cents) compared to perde dugah in the

past three centuries. You can hear qanuns perform Maqam Kurdilihijazkar with

equal tempered semitones today. Is just technology to blame?

Hi Ozan

Sorry for my ignorance, but how did this happen and why?

Which technology could be blamed, if any?

These are relevant questions demanding satisfactory answers. In my view, interactions with European Classical/Operatic Music since at least the 1800s, and the penetration of the 12-tone Western tradition into the Middle East is responsible for the abovesaid transformation.

I identify the causes that nailed the coffin on perde kurdi (among other things) as the prevalance, of late, of 12-tone tuners, and inclusion of electronic keyboards, pianofortes, guitars in traditional ensembles of Maqam Music.

I'm very interested in the question of technological determinism and
how technology directs (or channels) creativity.

So a question I'd be interesting to learn from all of you (but especially
those of non-Western culture) is:

How do you see modern digital technology (like synthesizers, samplers,
drum sequencers and music software) affecting your own musical
culture, especially considering that music software is normally 12-TET
designed for 4/4 rhythms and based upon Western score writing metaphors?

Adversely.

Do you think Western music-tool makers have to allow for more flexibility
considering other musical cultures, or is that just the job of software designers
in the respective culture? (Obviously Indian software designers should be
better at designing software for Indian music than the people at Steinberg,
Native Instruments or Apple.)

While I wish prominent software companies took notice of "Ethnic" elements and made provisions for at least flexible integration, I know that reality dictates every man to forage for himself in the software jungle. Just as Indian programmers would know best how to handle rags, so would we of Turkiye know what best serves our purposes. That is why I desire to pioneer in the development of Terane 1.0, a microtonal Maqam Music composition tool featuring 79/80 MOS 159-tET as a standard in notation.

Ziauddin Sardar once wrote that the new imperialism/colonialism was
happening in the field of digital technology, where GUI design and the
internet was based on Western metaphors. (well, he wrote this before
9/11 so I'm sure he's got an advanced position today).

Yes, I agree with Mr. Sardar.

I am VERY interested in hearing your opinion.

I hope to have answered your questions.

thanks
thor

Cordially,
Oz.

Hi Ozan

Thank you for your educative answer.

I'm studying the effect of software on music making and have made
a survey asking people about these things. We've had 220 replies
now, but sadly most of them are Western-Europoean, North-American
or from Australia/New Zealand. Some Japanese, South American and
Indian, but nothing from the Middle East, China, Africa or East Asian
countries (apart from Japan).

This is probably our faults as our survey is in English and Spanish and
we've not been able to find software based mailinglists or communities
(or any other language that we understand) in those countries.

Here is the survey:

www.ixi-software.net/survey

All the best
thor

I took the survey. Let's see what happens!

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "thor" <th.list@gmail.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 25 Nisan 2007 �ar�amba 20:47
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet? -Ozan

>
>
> Hi Ozan
>
> Thank you for your educative answer.
>
> I'm studying the effect of software on music making and have made
> a survey asking people about these things. We've had 220 replies
> now, but sadly most of them are Western-Europoean, North-American
> or from Australia/New Zealand. Some Japanese, South American and
> Indian, but nothing from the Middle East, China, Africa or East Asian
> countries (apart from Japan).
>
> This is probably our faults as our survey is in English and Spanish and
> we've not been able to find software based mailinglists or communities
> (or any other language that we understand) in those countries.
>
> Here is the survey:
>
> www.ixi-software.net/survey
>
> All the best
> thor
>
>