Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

>Just released, a book on Acoustics and Music. For more details, please go to this page, still under construction : "http://serge.donval.free.fr".

http://serge.donval.free.fr

At first sight of the chapter summaries it looks like a rehash of all the usual old "mumbo-jumbo" about integer frequency ratios, commas, tetrads, con/disonance claims etc.

I would like to be pleasantly surprised and find that it goes "further .....",

and introduces at least one new or original idea.

Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com

----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----

For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com

LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
http://www.lullabies.co.uk

Skype user = lucytune

Once again, no mention of Islamic contributions to the theory of music in
the Western World is to be found, except a flimsy passage on Safi-al-din.
The huge gap in the history of music must be filled, and for that,
Islamophobia plus the nonsense about the "universalism" of everything
Western must cease.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Lucy" <lucy@harmonics.com>
To: "tuninggroup" <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 22 Nisan 2007 Pazar 5:12
Subject: [tuning] Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

> >Just released, a book on Acoustics and Music. For more details,
> please go to this page, still under construction : "http://
> serge.donval.free.fr".
>
> http://serge.donval.free.fr
>
> At first sight of the chapter summaries it looks like a rehash of all
> the usual old "mumbo-jumbo" about integer frequency ratios, commas,
> tetrads, con/disonance claims etc.
>
> I would like to be pleasantly surprised and find that it goes
> "further .....",
>
> and introduces at least one new or original idea.
>
> Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com
>
> ----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----
>
> For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com
>
> LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
> Skype user = lucytune
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
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>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Hi
One of the first microtonal evidences in middle east is tanbour -of-baghdad using 40-edl as mentioned in great book of farabi.avicena , farabi and others are those who have used concepts such as limits and .....

Shaahin Mohajeri

Tombak Player & Researcher , Microtonal Composer

My web site?? ???? ????? ??????

My farsi page in Harmonytalk ???? ??????? ?? ??????? ???

Shaahin Mohajeri in Wikipedia ????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ????

-----Original Message-----
From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ozan Yarman
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 5:57 AM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tuning] Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

Once again, no mention of Islamic contributions to the theory of music in the Western World is to be found, except a flimsy passage on Safi-al-din.
The huge gap in the history of music must be filled, and for that, Islamophobia plus the nonsense about the "universalism" of everything Western must cease.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Lucy" <lucy@harmonics.com>
To: "tuninggroup" <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 22 Nisan 2007 Pazar 5:12
Subject: [tuning] Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

> >Just released, a book on Acoustics and Music. For more details,
> please go to this page, still under construction : "http://
> serge.donval.free.fr".
>
> http://serge.donval.free.fr
>
> At first sight of the chapter summaries it looks like a rehash of all
> the usual old "mumbo-jumbo" about integer frequency ratios, commas,
> tetrads, con/disonance claims etc.
>
> I would like to be pleasantly surprised and find that it goes "further
> .....",
>
> and introduces at least one new or original idea.
>
> Charles Lucy lucy@lucytune.com
>
> ----- Promoting global harmony through LucyTuning -----
>
> For information on LucyTuning go to: http://www.lucytune.com
>
> LucyTuned Lullabies (from around the world):
> http://www.lullabies.co.uk
>
> Skype user = lucytune
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
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> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
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> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
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tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.

Yahoo! Groups Links

I see that Charles Lucy sees a rehash, seeing little originality. This
would surely account for his dismay.

Oz seems to be confused a bit. His complaint of "no mention of Islamic
contributions to the theory of music" makes sense as the missed contributions of
diverse non-European peoples (e.g., Persians, Arabs, Turks, etc.). There is
nothing of Islam in these music contributions.

I am unaware of specific Islamic contributions to music. I am aware of
difficulties for music is some Islamic societies (e.g., Afghanistan Taliban). If
I am mistaken, Oz, and there are specific Islamic "contributions" to music,
I am all ears.

Johnny

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

i agree that this area of the world is quite ignored even the
contributions pre-islamic. they were the real the inheritors of
the Greeks

It was the here that the rotations of ratios within the tetrachord was first done, not to mention the addition of further subdivisions, particularly those involving the same ratio being used twice.

Posted by: "Ozan Yarman" ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com
<mailto:ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Has%20anyone%20read%20or%20reviewed%20this%20Serge%20Donval%20book%20yet%3F>
ozanyarman <http://profiles.yahoo.com/ozanyarman>

Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:27 pm (PST)

Once again, no mention of Islamic contributions to the theory of music in
the Western World is to be found, except a flimsy passage on Safi-al-din.

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

What a dissapointment seeing you profess so much by knowing so little. When it is a question of civilization and culture, we, the "diverse non-European peoples" belong to Islam not only in faith, but also in arts, architecture, poetry, sciences, etc... with a wealth of regional flavours to boot. This has been so, until the barrage of Westernism wrecked and continues to threaten everything good and wholesome around these parts.

Thus, it is no surprise, that Middle Eastern music and theory has Islamic connotations from the building of instruments to the singing of microtones, performance traditions, intonation, style, form, etc... Amazingly, almost all our classical schools - be they Abbasid, Ottoman, Safavid, Timurid, Baburid - have the signature of Islamic Civilization.

For another thing, it is our Prophet who himself encouraged merry-making with music. We do not listen to the dwindling fools who think music-making, poetry, painting, sculpture and chess-playing are forbidden by this or that fabricated hadith. (I, for one, am a Mutazilite, remember?)

Now, do you find it shocking that Islam is more than a political identity for us?

As for Taliban, well... they have been incited by the USA to counter the Soviet advance during the Cold War. Never in the history of Islam could such an anomaly be installed in power, if not for the interference by outside forces. A similar phenomenon occured in Iran too. But bigotry has always been a dwindling minority among Muslims. The overwhelming majority are ordinary people who like to enjoy the fruits of life as is their right. Besides, narrow-mindedness may be observed independent of geography, religion and culture throughout history, and is not in the least particular to Islamic societies.

Would you then incline to such awkward examples to validate your point? Would you like it if I brought up the difficulties of music-making in the atheistic Stalanist regime to scratch the contributions of Shostakovitch? Shame.

So, none of your glorified ethnicism here. It makes no difference whether Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi, Ibn Sina, Safi al-din were Turkish/Persian/Arabic or not. What matters is, that they adhered to a unique Islamic culture. Thus, their contributions to the world and humanity are all but Islamic, just as those of Socrates, Platon, Aristotle were Greek, and the works of Descartes, Kant and Hegel were European.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@aol.com
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 22 Nisan 2007 Pazar 16:34
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

I see that Charles Lucy sees a rehash, seeing little originality. This would surely account for his dismay.

Oz seems to be confused a bit. His complaint of "no mention of Islamic contributions to the theory of music" makes sense as the missed contributions of diverse non-European peoples (e.g., Persians, Arabs, Turks, etc.). There is nothing of Islam in these music contributions.

I am unaware of specific Islamic contributions to music. I am aware of difficulties for music is some Islamic societies (e.g., Afghanistan Taliban). If I am mistaken, Oz, and there are specific Islamic "contributions" to music, I am all ears.

Johnny

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:

> I am unaware of specific Islamic contributions to music.

The best sense I can make of it is Toyenbee's claim that
religion is often the line of division between major
civilizations. We had on that view a Christian civilization
speaking many languages, and an Islamic civilization speaking
many languages. They influenced each other but to some extent
developed independently. It's one way of viewing a complex
situation.

> Oz seems to be confused a bit. His complaint of "no mention
> of Islamic contributions to the theory of music" makes sense
> as the missed contributions of diverse non-European peoples
> (e.g., Persians, Arabs, Turks, etc.). There is nothing of
> Islam in these music contributions.

You don't think the fact that these peoples, however diverse,
were all Islamic during the 700-1500AD period is significant?

-Carl

> i agree that this area of the world is quite ignored even the
> contributions pre-islamic. they were the real the inheritors
> of the Greeks

I agree. And in bringing the lute to Europe. And the influence
is quite audible in flamenco and in many places in jazz.

-Carl

Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

> i agree that this area of the world is quite ignored even the
> contributions pre-islamic. they were the real the inheritors
> of the Greeks

I agree. And in bringing the lute to Europe. And the influence
is quite audible in flamenco and in many places in jazz.

-Carl

To answer both your posts, I am asking for a perspective that can
distinguish whether the lute, or the "l'oud" of Zalzal, was more the result of
humankind at a time in history, or more rather a miracle coming out specific reli
gious influences.

Oz has explained himself extremely well. I found his discussion
fascinating. Thank you.

-Johnny

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Ingeniously so.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 22 Nisan 2007 Pazar 21:31
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet?

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
>
> > I am unaware of specific Islamic contributions to music.
>
> The best sense I can make of it is Toyenbee's claim that
> religion is often the line of division between major
> civilizations. We had on that view a Christian civilization
> speaking many languages, and an Islamic civilization speaking
> many languages. They influenced each other but to some extent
> developed independently. It's one way of viewing a complex
> situation.
>
>

Ahem, 622 to ca.1700 C.E.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 22 Nisan 2007 Pazar 21:57
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet?

> > Oz seems to be confused a bit. His complaint of "no mention
> > of Islamic contributions to the theory of music" makes sense
> > as the missed contributions of diverse non-European peoples
> > (e.g., Persians, Arabs, Turks, etc.). There is nothing of
> > Islam in these music contributions.
>
> You don't think the fact that these peoples, however diverse,
> were all Islamic during the 700-1500AD period is significant?
>
> -Carl
>
>

> Would you then incline to such awkward examples to validate
>your point? Would you like it if I brought up the difficulties
>of music-making in the atheistic Stalanist regime to scratch
>the contributions of Shostakovitch? Shame.
>
> So, none of your glorified ethnicism here. It makes no
> difference whether Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi, Ibn Sina, Safi al-din
> were Turkish/Persian/Arabic or not. What matters is, that they
> adhered to a unique Islamic culture. Thus, their contributions
> to the world and humanity are all but Islamic, just as those
> of Socrates, Platon, Aristotle were Greek, and the works of
> Descartes, Kant and Hegel were European.

Well said, Ozan.

-Carl

> To answer both your posts, I am asking for a perspective that can
> distinguish whether the lute, or the "l'oud" of Zalzal, was more
> the result of humankind at a time in history, or more rather a
> miracle coming out specific religious influences.

Aren't all inventions the product of humankind at a time in
history?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > To answer both your posts, I am asking for a perspective that can
> > distinguish whether the lute, or the "l'oud" of Zalzal, was more
> > the result of humankind at a time in history, or more rather a
> > miracle coming out specific religious influences.
>
> Aren't all inventions the product of humankind at a time in
> history?

Usually various times, as with the lute:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lute#History_and_evolution_of_the_lute

The origins of the lute are obscure. Various types of lutes were in use
in ancient Egyptian, Hittite, Greek, Roman, Bulgar, Turkic, Chinese,
Armenian/Cilician cultures. The Lute developed its familiar forms in
Persia, Armenia, Byzantium and the Arab lands in the early 7th century.

Three lashes with a wet noodle for me!

-Carl

> Ahem, 622 to ca.1700 C.E.
>
> Oz.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 22 Nisan 2007 Pazar 21:57
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval
book
> yet?
>
>
> > > Oz seems to be confused a bit. His complaint of "no mention
> > > of Islamic contributions to the theory of music" makes sense
> > > as the missed contributions of diverse non-European peoples
> > > (e.g., Persians, Arabs, Turks, etc.). There is nothing of
> > > Islam in these music contributions.
> >
> > You don't think the fact that these peoples, however diverse,
> > were all Islamic during the 700-1500AD period is significant?
> >
> > -Carl
> >
> >
>

> The Lute developed its familiar forms in
> Persia, Armenia, Byzantium and the Arab lands in the early
> 7th century.

Of course the Europeans played it completely differently,
and tuned it differently, etc.

-Carl

Thank you my spirited colleague!

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 22 Nisan 2007 Pazar 23:25
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet?

> > Would you then incline to such awkward examples to validate
> >your point? Would you like it if I brought up the difficulties
> >of music-making in the atheistic Stalanist regime to scratch
> >the contributions of Shostakovitch? Shame.
> >
> > So, none of your glorified ethnicism here. It makes no
> > difference whether Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi, Ibn Sina, Safi al-din
> > were Turkish/Persian/Arabic or not. What matters is, that they
> > adhered to a unique Islamic culture. Thus, their contributions
> > to the world and humanity are all but Islamic, just as those
> > of Socrates, Platon, Aristotle were Greek, and the works of
> > Descartes, Kant and Hegel were European.
>
> Well said, Ozan.
>
> -Carl
>
>

> > So, none of your glorified ethnicism here. It makes no
> > difference whether Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi, Ibn Sina, Safi al-din
> > were Turkish/Persian/
Arabic or not. What matters is, that they
> > adhered to a unique Islamic culture. Thus, their contributions
> > to the world and humanity are all but Islamic, just as those
> > of Socrates, Platon, Aristotle were Greek, and the works of
> > Descartes, Kant and Hegel were European.

In some cases it might indeed be useful to speak in terms of an Islamicate culture (this is Marshall G.S. Hodgson's term, and it allows for the fact that leading musicians and scholars were often Christians or Jews in these cultures, and that they represented a cosmopolitan blend of ethnic backgrounds), and specifically with regards to the lines of transmission of some musical instrument technologies (lutes, bows). However, in terms of music in general, it's probably more useful to talk of a Mediterranean culture, in which links to the older trichordal division/pentatonic cultures in North Africa and Ethiopia (and possibly the oldest Greek) traditions can be made, in which the common pool of tetrachordal and systematic theory can be viewed , and from which one can dispassionately recognize that there are common and parallel developments, for example the disappearance of the classical enharmonic genus or rotation of the intervals within a tetrachord, developments common to both Byzantine church music and to musics of the Arabic/Turkic/Persian spectrum.

djw

Oh, it'll take a lot wetter and durable substance than a noodle to inflict
the punishment you deserve. LOL

I'm talking about brain matter of course.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 23 Nisan 2007 Pazartesi 0:49
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet?

> Three lashes with a wet noodle for me!
>
> -Carl
>
> > Ahem, 622 to ca.1700 C.E.
> >
> > Oz.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...>
> > To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: 22 Nisan 2007 Pazar 21:57
> > Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval
> book
> > yet?
> >
> >
> > > > Oz seems to be confused a bit. His complaint of "no mention
> > > > of Islamic contributions to the theory of music" makes sense
> > > > as the missed contributions of diverse non-European peoples
> > > > (e.g., Persians, Arabs, Turks, etc.). There is nothing of
> > > > Islam in these music contributions.
> > >
> > > You don't think the fact that these peoples, however diverse,
> > > were all Islamic during the 700-1500AD period is significant?
> > >
> > > -Carl
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 23 Nisan 2007 Pazartesi 0:39
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet?

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> >
> > > To answer both your posts, I am asking for a perspective that can
> > > distinguish whether the lute, or the "l'oud" of Zalzal, was more
> > > the result of humankind at a time in history, or more rather a
> > > miracle coming out specific religious influences.
> >
> > Aren't all inventions the product of humankind at a time in
> > history?
>
> Usually various times, as with the lute:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lute#History_and_evolution_of_the_lute
>
> The origins of the lute are obscure. Various types of lutes were in use
> in ancient Egyptian, Hittite, Greek, Roman, Bulgar, Turkic, Chinese,
> Armenian/Cilician cultures. The Lute developed its familiar forms in
> Persia, Armenia, Byzantium and the Arab lands in the early 7th century.
>
>

Due to the rise of the so-called "Hagarism". So much for music being
forbidden in Islam. Thank you for the clarification.

Oz.

Also worthy of mention is a polyphonic piece by Kindi predating European
templates by centuries (Farmer, H. Historical Facts, 346-7).

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 22 Nisan 2007 Pazar 21:59
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet?

> > i agree that this area of the world is quite ignored even the
> > contributions pre-islamic. they were the real the inheritors
> > of the Greeks
>
> I agree. And in bringing the lute to Europe. And the influence
> is quite audible in flamenco and in many places in jazz.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

Levantine? That is a geographical denomination dependent on the
Francoitalian conceptualization of the Mediterranean East. Jewish and
Christian artists of the region were always encouraged by Muslim patrons,
unless operating under the sanctions of their isolate
community/church/synagogue. But these dhimmis were not in the least leading,
but a minority. Besides, commissioned works are just as Islamic as Haydn's
are European. A simple glance at Armenians and Greeks of the Ottoman Empire
will show that they played on the same tanbur, used the same traditional
perde names, and composed in known modes and forms of Maqam Music. Famous
examples include Kantemir, Harutin, and Hamparsum.

As for Byzantine Church Music, it dissapeared with the collapse of the
Byzantine Empire in 1453. The remnants may be named "Eastern" or "Orthodox",
as distinct from Russian Orthodox. Not surprisingly, Coptic, Armenian, and
Greek communities remained under the Islamic influence for centuries
thereafter and adopted the musical jargons of the Islamic Civilization. On
the other hand, I have little information on their state of affairs prior to
the collapse, or how much of the Ancient Greek tetrachordal tradition they
carried into the new era. I surmise, that since they were in a state of
decline while Islam was rising, they must not have preserved a lot of their
past.

While attempts to lump together civilizations into such entities as
Graeco-Roman or Arabo-Persian might apply to some cases in history, it does
great injustice to pre-Roman thinkers of the Greek Heritage, or innovative
Islamic thinkers who renounced all their cultural ties with Jahiliyyah.

And since a straight division between music theory of Ancient Greeks and the
Middle Ages exists despite the historical continuity, a similar division
should not be deemed too inappropriate in the case of Islamic music theory.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Wolf" <djwolf@snafu.de>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 23 Nisan 2007 Pazartesi 11:35
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet?

> > > So, none of your glorified ethnicism here. It makes no
> > > difference whether Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi, Ibn Sina, Safi al-din
> > > were Turkish/Persian/
> Arabic or not. What matters is, that they
> > > adhered to a unique Islamic culture. Thus, their contributions
> > > to the world and humanity are all but Islamic, just as those
> > > of Socrates, Platon, Aristotle were Greek, and the works of
> > > Descartes, Kant and Hegel were European.
>
> In some cases it might indeed be useful to speak in terms of an
> Islamicate culture (this is Marshall G.S. Hodgson's term, and it allows
> for the fact that leading musicians and scholars were often Christians
> or Jews in these cultures, and that they represented a cosmopolitan
> blend of ethnic backgrounds), and specifically with regards to the lines
> of transmission of some musical instrument technologies (lutes, bows).
> However, in terms of music in general, it's probably more useful to talk
> of a Mediterranean culture, in which links to the older trichordal
> division/pentatonic cultures in North Africa and Ethiopia (and possibly
> the oldest Greek) traditions can be made, in which the common pool of
> tetrachordal and systematic theory can be viewed , and from which one
> can dispassionately recognize that there are common and parallel
> developments, for example the disappearance of the classical enharmonic
> genus or rotation of the intervals within a tetrachord, developments
> common to both Byzantine church music and to musics of the
> Arabic/Turkic/Persian spectrum.
>
> djw
>
>

> in terms of music in general, it's probably more useful to talk
> of a Mediterranean culture, in which links to the older trichordal
> division/pentatonic cultures in North Africa and Ethiopia (and
> possibly the oldest Greek) traditions can be made, in which the
> common pool of tetrachordal and systematic theory can be viewed,
> and from which one can dispassionately recognize that there are
> common and parallel developments, for example the disappearance
> of the classical enharmonic genus or rotation of the intervals
> within a tetrachord, developments common to both Byzantine church
> music and to musics of the Arabic/Turkic/Persian spectrum.

Is the trichordal/tetrachordal music you speak of really
Mediterranean in origin? I tend to think it must have evolved
throughout the Mediterranean, Middle East, and India at once.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
> Also worthy of mention is a polyphonic piece by Kindi predating
> European templates by centuries (Farmer, H. Historical Facts,
> 346-7).
>
> Oz.

Now here's something I'm interested in. Oz, what can you
share with us about this piece?

-Carl

Greetings,

This message began as a quick reply and has now grown beyond all
reasonable proportions. Forgive me its length. I send it with
trepidation because I do not wish to offend or enrage. At most to
share some of the things I have had the good fortune to encounter.
If I do offend, please forgive me -- it is accidental and caused by
my weakness of mind.

I think blindness toward the contribution of Islamic culture to
Western culture is not limited to music.

But it is not universal. The historian Oswald Spengler said that
Charlemagne court was but a reflection of the light from Baghdad
under the Caliphs. He had interesting comments on Islamic
jurisprudence and some deep ideas about the Sufis. Some people know of the influence of Arabic literature (and music?) on the
troubadours, some others on Dante, Chaucer and Shakespeare.
Scientifically, Islamic sources contributed greatly to the West.
Alchemy and then chemistry owe a huge amount to Geber -- Abu Musa
Jabir ibn Hayyan. Some even know that Muslim scientists knew of the
heart as a pump before the Europeans. The influence of Islamic
philosophers upon Scholastic Philosophy is huge. It's also
interesting that Descartes' famous dictum is presaged by a thought
experiment of Ibn Sina, while Pascal's Wager appears (in vitro) in al Ghazzali. Ibn Sina's text on medicine was standard in the West until
the 1700s. Numerous folk tales considered Western have Eastern
antecedents (William Tell, for example). Trade was also much more
extensive than imagined -- with trade settlements of Muslims in what
is now Switzerland and raiding along the coast of England in the
1400s! And even the Western magical tradition was heavily influenced
by an Arabic source, still not fully translated into English: the
Picatrix.

As someone very interested in those matters, but also not skilled in
reading Arabic, Turkish or Persian I am stymied by the dearth of
translations. I am glad for the D'Erlanger translation of Farabi,
but surely an English version is warranted. Many translations of
other important documents have been made -- bits here and there,
published here and there in hard to obtain specialist journals.
While the Internet is catching up with much literature, vast amounts
need to be scanned. In the study of Arabic music we still rely on
Henry Farmer. Surely there can be more added in all these years?
It's like someone using the Britannica 11th edition as the best
source of knowledge.

Overall, the lack of translations from Persian, Arabic and Turkish in ALL fields is extremely problematic. Philosophy, literature, history
are all underrepresented in easily obtained, readable translations.
I must complain about the far too many scholarly articles which are
stylistically unreadable, hopelessly disorganized and intellectually
weak. Surely these people can do better. Surely, they can do more.
Their expertise is desperately needed in these days when cultural
miscomprehension is so widespread.

If more effective work were done in this area then the relationships
and contributions would be more widely known. Instead we have
comments from people like Bertrand Russell that the Arabic/Persian/
Turkish philosophers added nothing original to philosophy. Sadly
absurd. Sad because he could write this at all, showing his own lack
of mere information. But I do not doubt that you can earn a degree
in philosophy without ever reading an Arabic philosopher. I know you
can earn a degree in Religious Studies without ever being required to
read the Qur'an complete or study Islam in any great depth (having
met such a person -- very intelligent and who went beyond the minimum
requirements and did read the Qur'an. I shudder to think what goes
on at overtly Christian colleges.) . But it's still a shame. In
Western music theory Arabic theory does not enter into the matter --
much to the loss of say Schenker, whose conceptions of counterpoint
would be revealed as culturally biased and not universal truths as he
said.

Knowledge of Eastern influences would do much to assist Western
thinkers resist supremacist notions, although it might not prevent
supremacist behaviour. Would knowing about Al Farabi change the
behaviour of certain Western governments, or trans-national
corporations? We in the West can certainly learn a great deal from
Eastern observers ('Would some god the gift give us to see ourselves
as others see us' - Burns). On the other hand, the East should know
that a similar freedom of critique must be permitted in return and
not all of it would count as blasphemy. We must also beware of
cultural insults: "See, we taught them everything!" or "We just
took up the ideas they couldn't develop." The path to advancing
civilization is murky and much is invisible -- I think of the blind
men and the elephant. I fear that not one side or the other of any
cultural divide is Paradise on the one hand or the World of War on
the other.

A very interesting site for wide ranging information about Middle
Eastern culture is at:

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com

A list of subjects covered is at:

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/index/Subjects.aspx

The articles on music are fascinating (see below). It is journalism,
and I'm sure people will find fault, but it is something. And in
some cases it is much more than mere journalism.

This site also has a vast array of articles:

http://www.muslimheritage.com/

Including ones on acoustics and architecture.

I no longer feel qualified to discuss the influence of Turkish music
upon say Vienna, but a quick listen to the finale of the 9th symphony
will reveal at least the percussion influence. Others, I believe have discussed the metric influence into Western music. Beyond that
mere idea I am uninformed. Anyone?

Tuning is a different matter and again I'm too rusty to speak about
possible influences from East to West in the past. There is much for
the Western 12 note composers to learn from Arabic/Turkish/Persian
Music. Even if they don't find the tunings of interest the
conception of Time in the nature of a makam is of considerable interest.

As a more overt political statement, I wish the West and the Islamic/
Near Eastern world could see each other as relatives and not
enemies. Cousins as it were: both with Semitic religion roots, but
also the much more extensive cultural background of the ancient Near
East. And both the inheritors of the Greek culture (and yes, the
West got its Greek from Arabic sources in large part, but also from
Byzantium and through a feverish desire to recoup the lost
material). Besides being co-inhabitants of a very small planet which
is our only habitat at the moment. Perhaps if our similarities were
better grasped we would be less prone to violence. Perhaps...

For those from the East, I would like to ask: how should I best
refer to these contributions? 'Islamic' focuses on the religious.
The use of 'Mu’tazili' would only confuse. 'Sunni', 'Shiite',
'Ismaili' are more and other theological differences. 'Arabic',
'Persian', 'Turkish' also conjure political, linguistic and cultural
divides, sometimes derogatory, as has been mentioned. 'Middle
Eastern' leaves out Pakistan (surely!?) and Indonesia. Advice, apart
from being specific, like Ibn Sina was Persian?

All best wishes,
Gordon Rumson

PS I had the honour of studying Arabic Music with the late Dr. Jafran
Jones. I am grateful for all she tried to teach me. Many years ago,
and my skills and knowledge are VERY rusty...

From Saudi Armaco World on Music:

MUSIC AND MUSICIANS
Amman's Year of the Arts, Lawrence, L. A., ND 02: 40-45
Arabian Memories in Portugal, Salloum, H., MA 01: 32-37
Babylon: A Rebirth, Tracy, W., MJ 89: 2-7
Building Blocks, Nickson, C., ND 01: 22
A Community of Arab Music, Kesting, P., SO 02: 28-33
Cultural Modulations, Clark, B., ND 94: 36-37
Days of Song and Dance, Campbell, K. H., JF 99: 78-87
A Doorway in Time, Kesting, P., SO 93: 32-39
Exploring Flamenco's Arab Roots, Noakes, G., ND 94: 32-35
Festival at Baalbek, Azzi, R., MJ 72: 10-19
Flight of the Blackbird, Lebling Jr., R. W., JA 03: 24-33
A Heritage Without Boundaries, Campbell, K. H., MJ 96: 2-6
In Tune, Clark, B., SO 91: 30-31
Lebanon's Renaissance of The Arts, Gauch, S., JF 98: 2-11
Listening to the Arab World Online, Heberlein, L. A., ND 02: 12-13
The Long Shadow of Um Kulthum, Nickson, C., ND 01: 19
Music In The Middle East, Boulos, A. A., JF 66: 12-15
Music of the World, Werner, L., JA 91: 18-19
The Musical Pulse of Tunisia, Anderson, T., JA 01: 22-33
Muslim Roots, U.S. Blues, Curiel, J., JA 06: 8-13
Nights with Fires and Drums: Paul Bowles and Morocco, Werner, L.,
JA 96: 24-27
On the Road to Find Out, Clark, A., MJ 87: 36-40
Playing in Interesting Times, Rivers, S. T., SO 95: 12-15
Plucked from Obscurity, Eliah, E., MA 99: 38-39
Ramadan's Lanterns, Feeney, J., MA 92: 14-23
The Return of Fayrouz, Hoberman, B., JF 82: 2-9
She Says It With Sound, Tracy, W., JA 71: 2-5
The Sound Of Arabian Music, Apr 62: 15-18
The Sultan of Surf, Azar, G. B., MA 98: 20-23
Talent Pool, Nickson, C., ND 01: 22
World Atlas, Nickson, C., SO 03: 29-31
The World of Islam: Its Music, Sabini, J., MJ 76: 22-23
The Year of Desert Rose, Nickson, C., ND 01: 16-23
MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS
A Gift for the Sultan, English, P., ND 83: 32-35
Muslim Roots, U.S. Blues, Curiel, J., JA 06: 8-13

On 22-Apr-07, at 8:52 AM, Kraig Grady wrote:

>
> i agree that this area of the world is quite ignored even the
> contributions pre-islamic. they were the real the inheritors of
> the Greeks
>
> Once again, no mention of Islamic contributions to the theory of
> music in
> the Western World is to be found, except a flimsy passage on Safi-
> al-din.
>

The piece predates Hucbald by a century and a half, is in 2/4 meter, with a
melodic line and a chordal part based on two voices:

(conjunct letters denote quavers, disjunct, crotchets.)

G cd | cB A | BcBA |
G.....| A.....| G..... | (repeat 4 times)
C.....| C.....| C..... |

B ef | ed C | dedB | A de | dc B | cdcA |
B.....| c.....| B......| A......| B.....| A.....|
E.....| E.....| E......| D......| D.....| D.....|

(return to beginning.)

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 23 Nisan 2007 Pazartesi 19:14
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet?

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
> > Also worthy of mention is a polyphonic piece by Kindi predating
> > European templates by centuries (Farmer, H. Historical Facts,
> > 346-7).
> >
> > Oz.
>
> Now here's something I'm interested in. Oz, what can you
> share with us about this piece?
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

My dear Gordon, I am overjoyed to see such a display of positive attitude of regret against the negligience, if not prejudiced treatment, of what is probably one of the most important phenomena in world history. I applaud your sentiments and admit to the pleasure of having learnt much escaping my attention from your delightful summary.

As a side note, I have myself expressed to John Chalmers in a private dialogue not long ago my sadness that no English translation of d'Erlanger's monumental work was available, and suggested a collaborative effort in the future toward the realization of this goal.

But really, this is just the tip of the iceberg. I share your concern regarding the insufficieny of research into Islamic literature. To think that such a prevalent figure of the past century as Russell could dismiss in absolute ignorance the contributions of Islamic thinkers to world and humanity is nothing short of horrific, if not altogether hollow. Regrettably, such a demeanour appears to be contagious, as we have experienced in the unfortunate remark by Johnny Reinhard recently.

I agree that criticism is an indispensible tool in aiding objective scientific thinking. Thus, I support an undogmatic perspective which recognizes not only the existence and importance, but also the beauty, of "alien" cultures.

Concomitantly, I would like to declare my sincere admiration, as a Muslim Turk, of "The Messiah" by Handel, "Requiem Mass" by Mozart, and "Missa Solemnis" by Beethoven. I need not mention, that this list may be expanded indefinitely.

As for the classification problem... I am certain that "Islamic Civilization and Culture" is a term most befitting for the purpose. If not that, then there is always "Caliphate", which conveys some idea of sociopolitical centrality based on Muslim rule. However, I prefer the former, since Mughals were just as Islamic as Spain till 15th century despite the absence of political unity. Also, I am tempted to use Mutazili as an indication to a period of enlightenment between 8th-13th centuries.

Cordially,
Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Rumson
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 23 Nisan 2007 Pazartesi 20:02
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

Greetings,

This message began as a quick reply and has now grown beyond all reasonable proportions. Forgive me its length. I send it with trepidation because I do not wish to offend or enrage. At most to share some of the things I have had the good fortune to encounter. If I do offend, please forgive me -- it is accidental and caused by my weakness of mind.

I think blindness toward the contribution of Islamic culture to Western culture is not limited to music.

But it is not universal. The historian Oswald Spengler said that Charlemagne court was but a reflection of the light from Baghdad under the Caliphs. He had interesting comments on Islamic jurisprudence and some deep ideas about the Sufis. Some people know of the influence of Arabic literature (and music?) on the troubadours, some others on Dante, Chaucer and Shakespeare. Scientifically, Islamic sources contributed greatly to the West. Alchemy and then chemistry owe a huge amount to Geber -- Abu Musa Jabir ibn Hayyan. Some even know that Muslim scientists knew of the heart as a pump before the Europeans. The influence of Islamic philosophers upon Scholastic Philosophy is huge. It's also interesting that Descartes' famous dictum is presaged by a thought experiment of Ibn Sina, while Pascal's Wager appears (in vitro) in al Ghazzali. Ibn Sina's text on medicine was standard in the West until the 1700s. Numerous folk tales considered Western have Eastern antecedents (William Tell, for example). Trade was also much more extensive than imagined -- with trade settlements of Muslims in what is now Switzerland and raiding along the coast of England in the 1400s! And even the Western magical tradition was heavily influenced by an Arabic source, still not fully translated into English: the Picatrix.

As someone very interested in those matters, but also not skilled in reading Arabic, Turkish or Persian I am stymied by the dearth of translations. I am glad for the D'Erlanger translation of Farabi, but surely an English version is warranted. Many translations of other important documents have been made -- bits here and there, published here and there in hard to obtain specialist journals. While the Internet is catching up with much literature, vast amounts need to be scanned. In the study of Arabic music we still rely on Henry Farmer. Surely there can be more added in all these years? It's like someone using the Britannica 11th edition as the best source of knowledge.

Overall, the lack of translations from Persian, Arabic and Turkish in ALL fields is extremely problematic. Philosophy, literature, history are all underrepresented in easily obtained, readable translations. I must complain about the far too many scholarly articles which are stylistically unreadable, hopelessly disorganized and intellectually weak. Surely these people can do better. Surely, they can do more. Their expertise is desperately needed in these days when cultural miscomprehension is so widespread.

If more effective work were done in this area then the relationships and contributions would be more widely known. Instead we have comments from people like Bertrand Russell that the Arabic/Persian/Turkish philosophers added nothing original to philosophy. Sadly absurd. Sad because he could write this at all, showing his own lack of mere information. But I do not doubt that you can earn a degree in philosophy without ever reading an Arabic philosopher. I know you can earn a degree in Religious Studies without ever being required to read the Qur'an complete or study Islam in any great depth (having met such a person -- very intelligent and who went beyond the minimum requirements and did read the Qur'an. I shudder to think what goes on at overtly Christian colleges.) . But it's still a shame. In Western music theory Arabic theory does not enter into the matter -- much to the loss of say Schenker, whose conceptions of counterpoint would be revealed as culturally biased and not universal truths as he said.

Knowledge of Eastern influences would do much to assist Western thinkers resist supremacist notions, although it might not prevent supremacist behaviour. Would knowing about Al Farabi change the behaviour of certain Western governments, or trans-national corporations? We in the West can certainly learn a great deal from Eastern observers ('Would some god the gift give us to see ourselves as others see us' - Burns). On the other hand, the East should know that a similar freedom of critique must be permitted in return and not all of it would count as blasphemy. We must also beware of cultural insults: "See, we taught them everything!" or "We just took up the ideas they couldn't develop." The path to advancing civilization is murky and much is invisible -- I think of the blind men and the elephant. I fear that not one side or the other of any cultural divide is Paradise on the one hand or the World of War on the other.

A very interesting site for wide ranging information about Middle Eastern culture is at:

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com

A list of subjects covered is at:

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/index/Subjects.aspx

The articles on music are fascinating (see below). It is journalism, and I'm sure people will find fault, but it is something. And in some cases it is much more than mere journalism.

This site also has a vast array of articles:

http://www.muslimheritage.com/

Including ones on acoustics and architecture.

I no longer feel qualified to discuss the influence of Turkish music upon say Vienna, but a quick listen to the finale of the 9th symphony will reveal at least the percussion influence. Others, I believe have discussed the metric influence into Western music. Beyond that mere idea I am uninformed. Anyone?

Tuning is a different matter and again I'm too rusty to speak about possible influences from East to West in the past. There is much for the Western 12 note composers to learn from Arabic/Turkish/Persian Music. Even if they don't find the tunings of interest the conception of Time in the nature of a makam is of considerable interest.

As a more overt political statement, I wish the West and the Islamic/Near Eastern world could see each other as relatives and not enemies. Cousins as it were: both with Semitic religion roots, but also the much more extensive cultural background of the ancient Near East. And both the inheritors of the Greek culture (and yes, the West got its Greek from Arabic sources in large part, but also from Byzantium and through a feverish desire to recoup the lost material). Besides being co-inhabitants of a very small planet which is our only habitat at the moment. Perhaps if our similarities were better grasped we would be less prone to violence. Perhaps...

For those from the East, I would like to ask: how should I best refer to these contributions? 'Islamic' focuses on the religious. The use of 'Mu’tazili' would only confuse. 'Sunni', 'Shiite', 'Ismaili' are more and other theological differences. 'Arabic', 'Persian', 'Turkish' also conjure political, linguistic and cultural divides, sometimes derogatory, as has been mentioned. 'Middle Eastern' leaves out Pakistan (surely!?) and Indonesia. Advice, apart from being specific, like Ibn Sina was Persian?

All best wishes,
Gordon Rumson

SNIP

Ozan: What unfortunate remark did I make? I am confused. Please be
specific as I want to whip my self with some wet noodles, just like Carl.

Johnny

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Surely you recall having said: "I am unaware of specific Islamic contributions to music".

Do not burden yourself with whips or noodles. I believe divine punishment will be a lot more effective. LOL

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@aol.com
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 25 Nisan 2007 Çarşamba 1:44
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

Ozan: What unfortunate remark did I make? I am confused. Please be specific as I want to whip my self with some wet noodles, just like Carl.

Johnny

Re: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

Surely you recall having said: "I am unaware of specific Islamic
contributions to music".

Do not burden yourself with whips or noodles. I believe divine punishment
will be a lot more effective. LOL

Oz.

Dear Oz,

If my ignorance were reason for ridicule, then there would be no reason for
this list.

However, with the seriousness that you take Islam, I don't believe joking
about "divine punishment" is the correct position. Actually, it seems obscene.

As for my confusion, the list has presented many other opinions, positions,
and stances, besides our two. I have been studying music history by ethnic
group, rather than ethnicity. After all, my ancestors were the people that
were being swallowed up by the larger Christian and Islamic worlds. These
"difference" cultures were subsumed by the force of the majority. And yet, I can
humbly give to my larger culture, what I would deem a world culture. I
would not however, like to be dismissed merely because my contribution is neither
Christian or Islamic.

best, Johnny

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@aol.com
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 25 Nisan 2007 Çarşamba 3:00
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

Re: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

Surely you recall having said: "I am unaware of specific Islamic contributions to music".

Do not burden yourself with whips or noodles. I believe divine punishment will be a lot more effective. LOL

Oz.

Dear Oz,

If my ignorance were reason for ridicule, then there would be no reason for this list.

Not your ignorance, but your ongoing unawareness contrary to all my efforts to elucidate the substance of Maqam Music theory as a prevalent Islamic entity despite every effort at nationalization.

However, with the seriousness that you take Islam, I don't believe joking about "divine punishment" is the correct position. Actually, it seems obscene.

So, you believe that Muslims are not entitled to enjoy a good laugh at the expense of those who mock themselves? Seriously, an atheist arguing in favour of the sanctity of eschatology... that is obscene.

As for my confusion, the list has presented many other opinions, positions, and stances, besides our two. I have been studying music history by ethnic group, rather than ethnicity. After all, my ancestors were the people that were being swallowed up by the larger Christian and Islamic worlds. These "difference" cultures were subsumed by the force of the majority. And yet, I can humbly give to my larger culture, what I would deem a world culture. I would not however, like to be dismissed merely because my contribution is neither Christian or Islamic.

After trying so hard, I can begin to understand how a "Godless Jew" cannot extricate himself from the vicious circle of having to classify even the history of music in terms of ethnicities. Come, let us chacinnate once more, if we may.

Do you find it amusing that Arabs, Turks, Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Pakis, Hindus, Afghanis, practice similar melodic textures? Is it any wonder that perde names remain, for the most part, the same in at least the first three nations?

Likewise, was Schubert, Tschaikovsky, or Mendelssohn more national composers than European?

best, Johnny

Cordially,
Oz.

Dear Oz,

It may simply be that I do not agree as fully as you do that the problem of
history is one of nomenclature. I do not understand your hatred for
nationalism, except as more of a Turkish phenomenon. There articles in the press
about the need for a secular leader of Turkey, for example.

Not your ignorance, but your ongoing unawareness contrary to all my efforts
to elucidate the substance of Maqam Music theory as a prevalent Islamic
entity despite every effort at nationalization.
SNIP

Do you find it amusing that Arabs, Turks, Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Pakis,
Hindus, Afghanis, practice similar melodic textures?
Personally, I love arabic music, especially the classics like Om Kalsoum and
Mohammed Abdel Wahab. But I also love the great Nubian oud master (who's
name escapes me at this late hour). I hear something other than
Egyptian/Arabic/Islamic input, finding something else, something gorgeous to me. Please
feel free to add Jewish music here. It is also melodic and sounds like it
might have a maqam basis...only its not Islamic.

Frankly the melodic textures of the music are not all that of one thing for
me. Hindu, Baul, and all sorts of sub-continent music seems nothing like
Arabic music. I would feel using an Islamic brush for all of these diverse
musics does not make total sense in my concept of the world. (there's no need
to insult here)

I love the music, but see a different connection between the things. That's
a different perspective, maybe even occasionally original. You know, for
over 30 years I used to tell people how fascinating it will be when a truly
great Turkish history of the world is written. Ozan, your taking my dream
away...and we were so close. By any chance, are there any parts to your ancestry
that is not ethnic Turk?

Is it any wonder that perde names remain, for the most part, the same in at
least the first three nations?
Nothing that shows commonality between adjacent nations would surprise me.
I am just not going to accept a world view that is based on religion. I
think the secular Turks have it right.

Likewise, was Schubert, Tschaikovsky, or Mendelssohn more national composers
than European?

See here we have the point, how to categorize. Sure they are each
europeans. But why not include Dvorak (Czech) or Sibelius (Suomi). Regardless,
neither the category of a national or European composer has anything to do with
religion. Since it is not necessary to use religion as a measurement for the
contributions of people, it is not necessary for it to intrude. In this
way, Felix Mendelssohn need not be seen as a prominent Jew converting to
Christianity in an anti-semitic Germany. Can be a European, even if his status as a
German was viciously fought by his fellows?

yours, Johnny

Cordially,
Oz.

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Hamza El Din

who not longer is with us

Posted by: "Afmmjr@aol.com" Afmmjr@aol.com
<mailto:Afmmjr@aol.com?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Has%20anyone%20read%20or%20reviewed%20this%20Serge%20Donval%20book%20yet%3F>
afmmjr <http://profiles.yahoo.com/afmmjr>

Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:22 pm (PST)

. But I also love the great Nubian oud master (who's
name escapes me at this late hour).

Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Greetings,

Thank you for the supportive words for my post. I was quite unsure if I should send it.

For me, it seems cross cultural lines of communication must be opened very wide these days.

We all live on one very small planet...

All best wishes,

Gordon Rumson

On 24-Apr-07, at 3:12 PM, Ozan Yarman wrote:

> My dear Gordon, I am overjoyed to see such a display of positive > attitude of regret against the negligience, if not prejudiced > treatment, of what is probably one of the most important phenomena > in world history. I applaud your sentiments and admit to the > pleasure of having learnt much escaping my attention from your > delightful summary.
>
> As a side note, I have myself expressed to John Chalmers in a > private dialogue not long ago my sadness that no English > translation of d'Erlanger's monumental work was available, and > suggested a collaborative effort in the future toward the > realization of this goal.
>
> But really, this is just the tip of the iceberg. I share your > concern regarding the insufficieny of research into Islamic > literature. To think that such a prevalent figure of the past > century as Russell could dismiss in absolute ignorance the > contributions of Islamic thinkers to world and humanity is nothing > short of horrific, if not altogether hollow. Regrettably, such a > demeanour appears to be contagious, as we have experienced in the > unfortunate remark by Johnny Reinhard recently.
>
> I agree that criticism is an indispensible tool in aiding objective > scientific thinking. Thus, I support an undogmatic perspective > which recognizes not only the existence and importance, but also > the beauty, of "alien" cultures.
>
> Concomitantly, I would like to declare my sincere admiration, as a > Muslim Turk, of "The Messiah" by Handel, "Requiem Mass" by Mozart, > and "Missa Solemnis" by Beethoven. I need not mention, that this > list may be expanded indefinitely.
>
> As for the classification problem... I am certain that "Islamic > Civilization and Culture" is a term most befitting for the purpose. > If not that, then there is always "Caliphate", which conveys some > idea of sociopolitical centrality based on Muslim rule. However, I > prefer the former, since Mughals were just as Islamic as Spain till > 15th century despite the absence of political unity. Also, I am > tempted to use Mutazili as an indication to a period of > enlightenment between 8th-13th centuries.
>
> Cordially,
> Oz.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
> In this
> way, Felix Mendelssohn need not be seen as a prominent Jew
converting to
> Christianity in an anti-semitic Germany. Can be a European, even if
his status as a
> German was viciously fought by his fellows?

Felix Mendelssohn was raised a Lutheran; the convert
was his father. Abraham Mendelssohn was more interested
in not being Jewish than in being Lutheran, but Felix
was a devout Protestant, as you can hear in his fifth
symphony for instance.

Felix was also much more of an internationalist than
a nationalist, as you can see eg by the names of some
of his other symphonies. Aside from loving among other
places Scotland and Italy (and speaking both English
and Italian fluently), he adored England and the
English, who enthusiastically returned the favor.

----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@aol.com
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 25 Nisan 2007 Çarşamba 7:21
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

Dear Oz,

It may simply be that I do not agree as fully as you do that the problem of history is one of nomenclature. I do not understand your hatred for nationalism, except as more of a Turkish phenomenon. There articles in the press about the need for a secular leader of Turkey, for example.

Me? Hatred for an ideology that is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions of people in the past century alone? Don't be ridiculous. Mine is not hatred, only rancour.

And I feel that secularism is much overrated.

Not your ignorance, but your ongoing unawareness contrary to all my efforts to elucidate the substance of Maqam Music theory as a prevalent Islamic entity despite every effort at nationalization.
SNIP
Do you find it amusing that Arabs, Turks, Persians, Azeris, Kurds, Pakis, Hindus, Afghanis, practice similar melodic textures?
Personally, I love arabic music, especially the classics like Om Kalsoum and Mohammed Abdel Wahab. But I also love the great Nubian oud master (who's name escapes me at this late hour). I hear something other than Egyptian/Arabic/Islamic input, finding something else, something gorgeous to me. Please feel free to add Jewish music here. It is also melodic and sounds like it might have a maqam basis...only its not Islamic.

Umm Gulthum and Abdulwahhab were, indeed, Arabic singers of Maqam Music. I do not in the least deny nationalities and local flavours in the Middle East, but find the inclusion of Nikolaki and Tatyos Efendi under such denominations as Arabic Music or Greek Music foolish. Our musical tradition, from the nomenclature of perdes to maqamat, ousulat, forms and instruments, was in Islam what Classical Music is to the Christian West... Do you find this impalatable?

One does not categorically need be defined as a Muslim to be a part of the Islamic Civilization. I find no difficulty in considering the Eastern Church and Levantine Jewish communities as part of the Islamic entity with its endless diversity and regional flavours.

Frankly the melodic textures of the music are not all that of one thing for me. Hindu, Baul, and all sorts of sub-continent music seems nothing like Arabic music. I would feel using an Islamic brush for all of these diverse musics does not make total sense in my concept of the world. (there's no need to insult here)

My good man, why do you insist on thinking of Islam as only a religion and fail to percieve the art and culture behind it? Do you think the great mosque of Cordoba and Taj Mahal have nothing in common?

I love the music, but see a different connection between the things. That's a different perspective, maybe even occasionally original.

Unenlighteningly so.

You know, for over 30 years I used to tell people how fascinating it will be when a truly great Turkish history of the world is written. Ozan, your taking my dream away...and we were so close. By any chance, are there any parts to your ancestry that is not ethnic Turk?

What has my ethnicity got to do anything with the fact that I am a Turkish-speaking Muslim male born and bred in Istanbul?

The way I see it, pre-Islamic Turkish history, or any Turkish history independent of Islam, is peripheral. There is nothing at all great about nomad-warriors who were animists.

Is it any wonder that perde names remain, for the most part, the same in at least the first three nations?
Nothing that shows commonality between adjacent nations would surprise me. I am just not going to accept a world view that is based on religion. I think the secular Turks have it right.

Coming from the godless, such words convince me that it is the Muslims who have it right. Islam is not simply a religion, it is a civilization and a cultural framework extending across national boundaries.

Likewise, was Schubert, Tschaikovsky, or Mendelssohn more national composers than European?

See here we have the point, how to categorize. Sure they are each europeans. But why not include Dvorak (Czech) or Sibelius (Suomi). Regardless, neither the category of a national or European composer has anything to do with religion.

Utter nonsense. Even the single example of J. S. Bach as a Lutheran musician whose compositions are tinted with the Germanic Protestant Baroque style suffice to prove, that, until the 19th century, art in Europe and Middle East had religio-cultural connotations.

I wish you desist from applying the jargons of the industrial age to pre-industrial times.

Since it is not necessary to use religion as a measurement for the contributions of people, it is not necessary for it to intrude. In this way, Felix Mendelssohn need not be seen as a prominent Jew converting to Christianity in an anti-semitic Germany. Can be a European, even if his status as a German was viciously fought by his fellows?

Mendelssohn was a Romantic composer of Europe, German only for the fact that he lived there. He is an excellent example of those musicians who made it into the age of nationalism, but were not quite national themselves.

yours, Johnny

Cordially,
Oz.

Most appreciated dear colleague,

Cordially,
Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Rumson
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 25 Nisan 2007 Çarşamba 20:06
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book yet?

Greetings,

Thank you for the supportive words for my post. I was quite unsure if I should send it.

For me, it seems cross cultural lines of communication must be opened very wide these days.

We all live on one very small planet...

All best wishes,

Gordon Rumson

On 24-Apr-07, at 3:12 PM, Ozan Yarman wrote:

My dear Gordon, I am overjoyed to see such a display of positive attitude of regret against the negligience, if not prejudiced treatment, of what is probably one of the most important phenomena in world history. I applaud your sentiments and admit to the pleasure of having learnt much escaping my attention from your delightful summary.

As a side note, I have myself expressed to John Chalmers in a private dialogue not long ago my sadness that no English translation of d'Erlanger's monumental work was available, and suggested a collaborative effort in the future toward the realization of this goal.

But really, this is just the tip of the iceberg. I share your concern regarding the insufficieny of research into Islamic literature. To think that such a prevalent figure of the past century as Russell could dismiss in absolute ignorance the contributions of Islamic thinkers to world and humanity is nothing short of horrific, if not altogether hollow. Regrettably, such a demeanour appears to be contagious, as we have experienced in the unfortunate remark by Johnny Reinhard recently.

I agree that criticism is an indispensible tool in aiding objective scientific thinking. Thus, I support an undogmatic perspective which recognizes not only the existence and importance, but also the beauty, of "alien" cultures.

Concomitantly, I would like to declare my sincere admiration, as a Muslim Turk, of "The Messiah" by Handel, "Requiem Mass" by Mozart, and "Missa Solemnis" by Beethoven. I need not mention, that this list may be expanded indefinitely.

As for the classification problem... I am certain that "Islamic Civilization and Culture" is a term most befitting for the purpose. If not that, then there is always "Caliphate", which conveys some idea of sociopolitical centrality based on Muslim rule. However, I prefer the former, since Mughals were just as Islamic as Spain till 15th century despite the absence of political unity. Also, I am tempted to use Mutazili as an indication to a period of enlightenment between 8th-13th centuries.

Cordially,
Oz.

>of what is probably one of the most important phenomena in
>world history.

This is one way to put it in perspective:
http://mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html

Another:
http://mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

Funny, they don't show Rome taking over all of the
Macedonian empire. I thought that transfer happened
more or less in-place.

Also interesting is the size of the Mongol empire,
which I did know about, but it's another thing to see.

-Carl

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 26 Nisan 2007 Per�embe 2:36
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet?

> >of what is probably one of the most important phenomena in
> >world history.
>
> This is one way to put it in perspective:
> http://mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html
>
> Another:
> http://mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html
>

Marvelous. This should put some people in their place.

However, I do not see Zoroastrianism/Mithraicism/Manichaeanism, or Native
American religions (Aztecs/Mayas/Incas) there.

> Funny, they don't show Rome taking over all of the
> Macedonian empire. I thought that transfer happened
> more or less in-place.
>

Oh no, Rome never conquered Parthia. Eastern territories were relinquished.

> Also interesting is the size of the Mongol empire,
> which I did know about, but it's another thing to see.
>

It is the largest empire ever to be built.

> -Carl
>
>
>

Oz.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:

> Funny, they don't show Rome taking over all of the
> Macedonian empire. I thought that transfer happened
> more or less in-place.

One of Alexander's satrapies became the Parthian
Empire, Rome's greatest enemy.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:

> It is the largest empire ever to be built.

Second largest, after the British Empire.

Guys,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
>
> > Funny, they don't show Rome taking over all of the
> > Macedonian empire. I thought that transfer happened
> > more or less in-place.
>
> One of Alexander's satrapies became the Parthian
> Empire, Rome's greatest enemy.

I'm glad you posted this, Gene, because i'm really interested
in history and it led me off into a long Wikipedia binge to
learn more.

There have been too many off-topic posts here lately in
this thread, so i'm migrating it to metatuning.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

But the British were scattered around the world, Mongols possessed an
undivided land mass.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 26 Nisan 2007 Per�embe 5:47
Subject: [tuning] Re: Has anyone read or reviewed this Serge Donval book
yet?

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> > It is the largest empire ever to be built.
>
> Second largest, after the British Empire.
>