Two-Part Invention in 13ET

New piece written this weekend, uploaded here;

http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html

I got the initial idea for Two-Part Invention in 13ET
on April 13, 2007 (Friday the 13th) ... 13ET. Versions
are uploaded for Piano, Synth 'Square Wave', and
Synth FX 'Rain'.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

Impressive.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@h-pi.com>
To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>; <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 15 Nisan 2007 Pazar 21:42
Subject: [tuning] Two-Part Invention in 13ET

> New piece written this weekend, uploaded here;
>
> http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
>
> I got the initial idea for Two-Part Invention in 13ET
> on April 13, 2007 (Friday the 13th) ... 13ET. Versions
> are uploaded for Piano, Synth 'Square Wave', and
> Synth FX 'Rain'.
>
> Yours,
> Aaron Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Thanks, Ozan. Any other reactions? I'm surprised nobody
said this one just sounds like badly out-of-tune 12. This
is my first piece using 13ET, and I found that it sounds good
diatonically within a tritone. The 2nds, 3rds, 6ths, 7ths
and tritones are all good diatonically. I used the 4ths
and 5ths sparingly and most of the counterpoint is similar
or parallel motion in 3rds and 6ths, which is why I chose
a subject having some 7th leaps, so it would draw attention
to itself. I think it does sound like out-of-tune 12, but it was
written in 13, not in 12, and there are things going on which
are impossible in 12.

Major and minor scales in 13 are really interesting as they
sound normal at the ends and warped in the middle. This could
be used to excellent effect melodically. It has a very natural
sounding octatonic scale as well. Also, it has is a nice natural
(modern name) Lydian scale and Lydian/Mixolydian
(jazz scale = Lydian Dominant) with no perfect fifth, and a
corresponding Dorian scale. I did not exploit any of these
properties in this piece for stylistic reasons, but I'm playing
around with them a bit possibly for something else which
explores the 13-ness of 13ET instead of finding out what
kinds of standard contrapuntal things can be made to work.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Impressive.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@...>
> To: <MakeMicroMusic@yahoogroups.com>; <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 15 Nisan 2007 Pazar 21:42
> Subject: [tuning] Two-Part Invention in 13ET
>
>
> > New piece written this weekend, uploaded here;
> >
> > http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
> >
> > I got the initial idea for Two-Part Invention in 13ET
> > on April 13, 2007 (Friday the 13th) ... 13ET. Versions
> > are uploaded for Piano, Synth 'Square Wave', and
> > Synth FX 'Rain'.
> >
> > Yours,
> > Aaron Hunt
> > H-Pi Instruments
> >
> >
> >
> > You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> > of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> > tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> > tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> > tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> > tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> > tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> > tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

13 is a very interesting tuning, especially for someone
who wants something that cannot be mistaken for normal.

Here's a decatonic you might like:

!
Single-chain MOS of 5:4's in 13-tET.
10
!
184.615 !....2
276.923 !....3
369.231 !....4
553.846 !....6
646.154 !....7
738.462 !....8
923.077 !...10
1015.385 !..11
1107.692 !..12
2/1 !.......13
!
! Scale is proper.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Ozan. Any other reactions? I'm surprised nobody
> said this one just sounds like badly out-of-tune 12. This
> is my first piece using 13ET, and I found that it sounds good
> diatonically within a tritone. The 2nds, 3rds, 6ths, 7ths
> and tritones are all good diatonically. I used the 4ths
> and 5ths sparingly and most of the counterpoint is similar
> or parallel motion in 3rds and 6ths, which is why I chose
> a subject having some 7th leaps, so it would draw attention
> to itself. I think it does sound like out-of-tune 12, but it was
> written in 13, not in 12, and there are things going on which
> are impossible in 12.
>
> Major and minor scales in 13 are really interesting as they
> sound normal at the ends and warped in the middle. This could
> be used to excellent effect melodically. It has a very natural
> sounding octatonic scale as well. Also, it has is a nice natural
> (modern name) Lydian scale and Lydian/Mixolydian
> (jazz scale = Lydian Dominant) with no perfect fifth, and a
> corresponding Dorian scale. I did not exploit any of these
> properties in this piece for stylistic reasons, but I'm playing
> around with them a bit possibly for something else which
> explores the 13-ness of 13ET instead of finding out what
> kinds of standard contrapuntal things can be made to work.
>
> Yours,
> Aaron Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Ozan. Any other reactions? I'm surprised nobody
> said this one just sounds like badly out-of-tune 12.

Probably because it doesn't. Sounds more taking a
Bach piece, converting it to a seq file, and sticking
a line saying 0 equal 13 on top.

Here's an example of that:

http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/bach13.mid

Yours is a little less scary, admittedly.

Hey, I play that invention too. Strange how even 13-tET cannot distort a
piece enough that you cannot recognize it anymore. Cognitive processes
underlying microtonality deserve some research. Care to produce a known
composition so twisted that one will fail to identify it, Gene?

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 18 Nisan 2007 �ar�amba 3:07
Subject: [tuning] Re: Two-Part Invention in 13ET

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@...> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, Ozan. Any other reactions? I'm surprised nobody
> > said this one just sounds like badly out-of-tune 12.
>
> Probably because it doesn't. Sounds more taking a
> Bach piece, converting it to a seq file, and sticking
> a line saying 0 equal 13 on top.
>
> Here's an example of that:
>
> http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/bach13.mid
>
> Yours is a little less scary, admittedly.
>
>

Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
> Thanks, Ozan. Any other reactions? I'm surprised nobody > said this one just sounds like badly out-of-tune 12. This > is my first piece using 13ET, and I found that it sounds good > diatonically within a tritone. The 2nds, 3rds, 6ths, 7ths > and tritones are all good diatonically. I used the 4ths > and 5ths sparingly and most of the counterpoint is similar > or parallel motion in 3rds and 6ths, which is why I chose > a subject having some 7th leaps, so it would draw attention > to itself. I think it does sound like out-of-tune 12, but it was > written in 13, not in 12, and there are things going on which > are impossible in 12.

Both 11-ET and 13-ET have melodic steps similar to 12-ET, as well as usable thirds and sixths, but fourths and fifths that defy any attempts to use them as consonant intervals. I have to admit that I really didn't like this the first time I listened to it, but it's an interesting attempt. Maybe with a different timbre -- shamisen seems to work reasonably well. Something about these progressions just doesn't seem to fit the sound of the piano. But you might consider trying something with 3 parts and see how that comes out.

> Major and minor scales in 13 are really interesting as they > sound normal at the ends and warped in the middle. This could > be used to excellent effect melodically. It has a very natural > sounding octatonic scale as well. Also, it has is a nice natural > (modern name) Lydian scale and Lydian/Mixolydian > (jazz scale = Lydian Dominant) with no perfect fifth, and a > corresponding Dorian scale. I did not exploit any of these > properties in this piece for stylistic reasons, but I'm playing > around with them a bit possibly for something else which > explores the 13-ness of 13ET instead of finding out what > kinds of standard contrapuntal things can be made to work.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Hey, I play that invention too. Strange how even 13-tET cannot
distort a
> piece enough that you cannot recognize it anymore. Cognitive processes
> underlying microtonality deserve some research. Care to produce a
known
> composition so twisted that one will fail to identify it, Gene?

I already did that years ago:

http://www.xenharmony.org/ogg/gene/christmas2002/saxfare.ogg

I took the same midi file, and under the file pull-down menu,
I pulled down "new", and then "equal temperament", which I used
the default 12 for. Scala, being a sort of idiot-savant program,
needs to be told that a midi file with no pitch bends in it is
in 12 equal, so this step is needed.

Then, in the space at the bottom, I typed "set lt 7 12 0 2/1",
which tells scale to use LT notation with a generator of 7
and a period of 12 out of a formal octave of an octave, with
a gamut starter of 0 (C). (Sometimes "use 12-note note names"
on the menu works better, depending on how accurately the key
signatures are recorded in the midi file.)

Changing the line

0 lt_pars 7 12 0 2/1

in the seq file to this:

0 lt_pars 8 13 0 2/1

and then generating a midi leads to this:

http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/ba13.mid

Using

0 lt_pars 29 36 0 2/1

instead leads to this:

http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/ba36.mid

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:

Here's something which has been driving me nuts which
I finally figured out how to do. Pull down "new" and
"equal temperament" as before, and change the
equal temperament so that the division is 6 and the
formal octave is 600.0. Then at the bottom type im
"set lt 7 6 n 600.0", and convert the midi file to
a seq file. Here "n" is an integer telling where the
gamut starts.

The will be the same 12-et midi file, but the seq file
is now using pajara notation. Hence, I can change it,
for instance to

0 lt_pars 13 11 0 600.0

and now instead of 12-et, I get a result in Pajara[12]
in 22-et tuning. Shades of Paul Erlich!

Here's a midi file:

http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/bach-paj.mid

Ozan wrote:

> Hey, I play that invention too. Strange how even 13-tET cannot distort a
> piece enough that you cannot recognize it anymore. Cognitive processes
> underlying microtonality deserve some research. Care to produce a known
> composition so twisted that one will fail to identify it, Gene?

I think this is what Gene has already done some time ago on his Mad
Scientist webpage. A clear example of this:
http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/ogg/exotic/detuned/mushc.ogg

Petr

The score to my "Change of Regime" (2004), a prelude, invention, and an air to a ground for a keyboard instrument in 13tet, is online along with a rough soundfile in ogg and mp3 formats

http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/ChangeOfRegime.pdf
http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/ChangeOfRegime.ogg
http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/ChangeOfRegime.mp3

This was part of a project to write style exercises in all the n-tets from eight to 23.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:

I shouldn't leave the impression that the only fun
stuff using LT notation you can do with 12-et midi
files involves retuning. Here's something very
basic, but nice: convert as usual to the system
where the generator is 7, and the period is 12. Now
just change the generator to 5. Here's what you get
doing that with our same example midi file:

http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/bar.mid

You can also take generator 3 and period 4, and
swap generators (either by changing the lt_pars
line, or commenting that out, using lt_gens, and
swaping generators.) You get

http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/b4_3.mid

Doing the same with a generator of 4 and a period of
3 gives:

http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/b3_4.mid

And on and on. People might try experimenting and
seeing what they can come up with.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, Ozan. Any other reactions? I'm surprised nobody
> > said this one just sounds like badly out-of-tune 12.
>
> Probably because it doesn't. Sounds more taking a
> Bach piece, converting it to a seq file, and sticking
> a line saying 0 equal 13 on top.
>
> Here's an example of that:
>
> http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/bach13.mid
>
> Yours is a little less scary, admittedly.
>

I hope this is a joke.

Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

Have you perchance been watching the Republican mass meeting in Ankara
Tandogan square where hundred thousands flocked to Attaturk's shrine crying
secularism? This piece speaks my sentiments. I like it.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Wolf" <djwolf@snafu.de>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 18 Nisan 2007 �ar�amba 10:20
Subject: [tuning] Re: Two-Part Invention in 13ET

> The score to my "Change of Regime" (2004), a prelude, invention, and an
> air to a ground for a keyboard instrument in 13tet, is online along with
> a rough soundfile in ogg and mp3 formats
>
> http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/ChangeOfRegime.pdf
> http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/ChangeOfRegime.ogg
> http://home.snafu.de/djwolf/ChangeOfRegime.mp3
>
> This was part of a project to write style exercises in all the n-tets
> from eight to 23.
>
>

Cool!

-Carl

> Here's something which has been driving me nuts which
> I finally figured out how to do. Pull down "new" and
> "equal temperament" as before, and change the
> equal temperament so that the division is 6 and the
> formal octave is 600.0. Then at the bottom type im
> "set lt 7 6 n 600.0", and convert the midi file to
> a seq file. Here "n" is an integer telling where the
> gamut starts.
>
> The will be the same 12-et midi file, but the seq file
> is now using pajara notation. Hence, I can change it,
> for instance to
>
> 0 lt_pars 13 11 0 600.0
>
> and now instead of 12-et, I get a result in Pajara[12]
> in 22-et tuning. Shades of Paul Erlich!
>
> Here's a midi file:
>
> http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/bach-paj.mid

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:
> you might consider trying something with
> 3 parts and see how that comes out.

Two voice counterpoint in 13 works OK because one can rely on the
relatively good 3rds/6ths with passing 2nd/7th dissonances and
1/8v consonances, and the jarring effect of occasional 4th/5th leap
can be tolerated - at least I can tolerate it. Actually I think they add
a bit of tongue-in-cheek humor.

Three voices would raise an even greater challenge of avoiding the
5ths, since in a 3 voice texture complete triads are expected. The
way around it would be to use only incomplete 7th chords, omitting
the fifth, but then harmony becomes more problematic because
voiceleading requires root movements of 5ths to sound in the style.
Maybe I'll try it anyway. The results might just be hilarious.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 18 Nisan 2007 �ar�amba 7:45
Subject: [tuning] Re: Two-Part Invention in 13ET

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hey, I play that invention too. Strange how even 13-tET cannot
> distort a
> > piece enough that you cannot recognize it anymore. Cognitive processes
> > underlying microtonality deserve some research. Care to produce a
> known
> > composition so twisted that one will fail to identify it, Gene?
>
> I already did that years ago:
>
> http://www.xenharmony.org/ogg/gene/christmas2002/saxfare.ogg
>
> I took the same midi file, and under the file pull-down menu,
> I pulled down "new", and then "equal temperament", which I used
> the default 12 for. Scala, being a sort of idiot-savant program,
> needs to be told that a midi file with no pitch bends in it is
> in 12 equal, so this step is needed.
>
> Then, in the space at the bottom, I typed "set lt 7 12 0 2/1",
> which tells scale to use LT notation with a generator of 7
> and a period of 12 out of a formal octave of an octave, with
> a gamut starter of 0 (C). (Sometimes "use 12-note note names"
> on the menu works better, depending on how accurately the key
> signatures are recorded in the midi file.)
>
> Changing the line
>
> 0 lt_pars 7 12 0 2/1
>
> in the seq file to this:
>
> 0 lt_pars 8 13 0 2/1
>
> and then generating a midi leads to this:
>
> http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/ba13.mid
>
> Using
>
> 0 lt_pars 29 36 0 2/1
>
> instead leads to this:
>
> http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/ba36.mid
>
>

Wicked.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 18 Nisan 2007 �ar�amba 11:52
Subject: [tuning] Re: Two-Part Invention in 13ET

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
> wrote:
>
> I shouldn't leave the impression that the only fun
> stuff using LT notation you can do with 12-et midi
> files involves retuning. Here's something very
> basic, but nice: convert as usual to the system
> where the generator is 7, and the period is 12. Now
> just change the generator to 5. Here's what you get
> doing that with our same example midi file:
>
> http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/bar.mid
>

Ouch, this one needs reins.

> You can also take generator 3 and period 4, and
> swap generators (either by changing the lt_pars
> line, or commenting that out, using lt_gens, and
> swaping generators.) You get
>
> http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/b4_3.mid
>

Aie, this is worse. Too many repetitious notes.

> Doing the same with a generator of 4 and a period of
> 3 gives:
>
> http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/b3_4.mid
>

Twisted.

> And on and on. People might try experimenting and
> seeing what they can come up with.
>
>
>

You have made your point.
Oz.

What is the original piece?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Petr Par�zek" <p.parizek@chello.cz>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 18 Nisan 2007 �ar�amba 7:32
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Two-Part Invention in 13ET

> Ozan wrote:
>
> > Hey, I play that invention too. Strange how even 13-tET cannot distort a
> > piece enough that you cannot recognize it anymore. Cognitive processes
> > underlying microtonality deserve some research. Care to produce a known
> > composition so twisted that one will fail to identify it, Gene?
>
> I think this is what Gene has already done some time ago on his Mad
> Scientist webpage. A clear example of this:
> http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/ogg/exotic/detuned/mushc.ogg
>
>
> Petr
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@...> wrote:

> I hope this is a joke.

More like a gross exaggeration. However, the "ba13.mid"
version I give later is no joke.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> What is the original piece?

Couperin's Mysterious Barricades.

> > I shouldn't leave the impression that the only fun
> > stuff using LT notation you can do with 12-et midi
> > files involves retuning. Here's something very
> > basic, but nice: convert as usual to the system
> > where the generator is 7, and the period is 12. Now
> > just change the generator to 5. Here's what you get
> > doing that with our same example midi file:
> >
> > http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/bar.mid
>
> Ouch, this one needs reins.

This was probably my favorite!

> > You can also take generator 3 and period 4, and
> > swap generators (either by changing the lt_pars
> > line, or commenting that out, using lt_gens, and
> > swaping generators.) You get
> >
> > http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/b4_3.mid
>
> Aie, this is worse. Too many repetitious notes.
>
> > Doing the same with a generator of 4 and a period of
> > 3 gives:
> >
> > http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/b3_4.mid
>
> Twisted.

I liked these. I thought these three were the best
of Gene's recent midi experiments.

-Carl

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@sbcglobal.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 18 Nisan 2007 �ar�amba 9:00
Subject: [tuning] Re: Two-Part Invention in 13ET

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
> wrote:
>
> Here's something which has been driving me nuts which
> I finally figured out how to do. Pull down "new" and
> "equal temperament" as before, and change the
> equal temperament so that the division is 6 and the
> formal octave is 600.0. Then at the bottom type im
> "set lt 7 6 n 600.0", and convert the midi file to
> a seq file. Here "n" is an integer telling where the
> gamut starts.
>
> The will be the same 12-et midi file, but the seq file
> is now using pajara notation. Hence, I can change it,
> for instance to
>
> 0 lt_pars 13 11 0 600.0
>
> and now instead of 12-et, I get a result in Pajara[12]
> in 22-et tuning. Shades of Paul Erlich!
>
> Here's a midi file:
>
> http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/bach-paj.mid
>
>

Not bad at all.

Oz.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:

> I liked these. I thought these three were the best
> of Gene's recent midi experiments.

Which were specifically LT notation experiments.
I'm trying to show some of the power inherent in
LT notation, which uses two generators and hence
is pretty flexible. Of course, Tonescape uses up
to seven, but even two gets you a long way. We've
always seemingly found equal and linear temperaments
the most useful.

> I shouldn't leave the impression that the only fun
> stuff using LT notation you can do with 12-et midi
> files involves retuning. Here's something very
> basic, but nice: convert as usual to the system
> where the generator is 7, and the period is 12. Now
> just change the generator to 5. Here's what you get
> doing that with our same example midi file:
>
> http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/bar.mid

This turns all 5ths to 4ths, but what about the other
intervals? Seems like it would replace every interval
with its inversion?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > I shouldn't leave the impression that the only fun
> > stuff using LT notation you can do with 12-et midi
> > files involves retuning. Here's something very
> > basic, but nice: convert as usual to the system
> > where the generator is 7, and the period is 12. Now
> > just change the generator to 5. Here's what you get
> > doing that with our same example midi file:
> >
> > http://www.xenharmony.org/midi/examples/bar.mid
>
> This turns all 5ths to 4ths, but what about the other
> intervals? Seems like it would replace every interval
> with its inversion?

Sort of, but not exactly. Octaves map to octaves,
for instance.

We have:

fifth <==> fourth
major third <==> major third down
minor third <==> major sixth
tenth <==> minor sixth

Up to octave equivalence, things are replaced
with inversions.