Martin Vogel + April, 1 2007

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Vogel's excellent writings are in German, but his book "On The Relations
of Tone" was translated into English and it summarizes several of his
earlier writings, including "The Number 7 in Speculative Music Theory"
and some material from "The Music of the Greeks". I have read "On The
Relations" many times through. It is in my opinion the best book on Just
Intonation ever written.

Vogel built a 5-limit JI guitar,
http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfaah/emancipation/guitars.htm
which actually appeared on ebay this past year.

He designed and built a pipe organ which plays 7-limit JI, which
has been used by Hans Andre Stamm,
http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfaah/emancipation/keyboards.htm

and a brass choir for 7-limit JI, which sadly last I heard were rusting in
a closet under his stairs.

Recordings of the organ used to be available online, but they appear
to have moved or vanished.

The German Wiki article should be expanded, and translated into
English; I could not find an entry in the English language Wiki. This
is sad news. Vogel was one of my presonal heros. He was not without
his critics, but there is no arguing that he was one of the leading
authorities on Greek music and Just Intonation. He was a preeminent
musicologist, music theorist, all-around scholar and teacher.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ibo Ortgies" <ibo.ortgies@...> wrote:
>
> According to the German Wikipedia, Martin Vogel, professor emeritus of
> musicology at the university of Bonn, died on April 1st, 2007
>
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Vogel<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Vogel>
>
> *Martin Vogel*
> (* 23. März 1923 in Frankfurt (Oder); † 1. April 2007 in Bonn)
>
>
>
> The tuning & temperament bibliography lists numerous of his books (the 2
> vols. "Schönberg und die Folgen" is missing) and articles:
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/bib.html#V
>

> He designed and built a pipe organ which plays 7-limit JI, which
> has been used by Hans Andre Stamm,
> http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfaah/emancipation/keyboards.htm

That organ rocks.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@...> wrote:

> He [Vogel] designed and built a pipe organ which plays
> 7-limit JI, which has been used by Hans Andre Stamm,
> http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfaah/emancipation/keyboards.htm

I agree with Carl: i heard Stamm's performances on that organ,
and loved them. But i'm pretty sure it was tuned to 171-edo
as an approximation of 7-limit JI, at which 171-edo does
indeed excel. IIRC, Vogel considered the approximation to be
so good that he felt he could just call it "just" and not
be concerned about the error.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Aaron Hunt wrote, re Vogel:

> He designed and built a pipe organ which plays 7-limit JI, which
> has been used by Hans Andre Stamm,
> http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfaah/emancipation/keyboards.htm
>
> Recordings of the organ used to be available online, but they appear
> to have moved or vanished.

Are you sure it was a 7-limit system? This page is about the instrument:

http://www.eufonia.de/english/orgel.php

and it describes the system like this: "The pipes of each block are grouped exactly according to the tonal system of 6 x 8 perfect fifths, a major third apart." --which makes it seem like a 6x8 chunk of the ->5<- limit grid.

There is still a recording available at the very bottom of that page, by the way. The mp3 is short but pretty good.

Hi Jon. Thanks for the link; I need to update my old webpages.
The organ is indeed 7 limit, although the description isn't very clear.
The keyboard has small circle-shaped button keys corresponding to
the pure sevenths. I found the rest of the audio examples here:

http://www.eufonia.de/deutsch/hoerbeispiele.php

The example called Carillon has passages demonstrating essential
harmonic 7ths.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jon Wild <wild@...> wrote:
>
>
> Aaron Hunt wrote, re Vogel:
>
> > He designed and built a pipe organ which plays 7-limit JI, which
> > has been used by Hans Andre Stamm,
> > http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfaah/emancipation/keyboards.htm
> >
> > Recordings of the organ used to be available online, but they appear
> > to have moved or vanished.
>
> Are you sure it was a 7-limit system? This page is about the instrument:
>
> http://www.eufonia.de/english/orgel.php
>
> and it describes the system like this: "The pipes of each block are
> grouped exactly according to the tonal system of 6 x 8 perfect fifths, a
> major third apart." --which makes it seem like a 6x8 chunk of the
> ->5<- limit grid.
>
> There is still a recording available at the very bottom of that page, by
> the way. The mp3 is short but pretty good.
>

Carillon.mp3 is amazing. The instrument sounds splendid. Kudos for Vogel.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@h-pi.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 16 Nisan 2007 Pazartesi 2:25
Subject: [tuning] Re: Martin Vogel + April, 1 2007

> Hi Jon. Thanks for the link; I need to update my old webpages.
> The organ is indeed 7 limit, although the description isn't very clear.
> The keyboard has small circle-shaped button keys corresponding to
> the pure sevenths. I found the rest of the audio examples here:
>
> http://www.eufonia.de/deutsch/hoerbeispiele.php
>
> The example called Carillon has passages demonstrating essential
> harmonic 7ths.
>
> Yours,
> Aaron Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jon Wild <wild@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Aaron Hunt wrote, re Vogel:
> >
> > > He designed and built a pipe organ which plays 7-limit JI, which
> > > has been used by Hans Andre Stamm,
> > > http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfaah/emancipation/keyboards.htm
> > >
> > > Recordings of the organ used to be available online, but they
appear
> > > to have moved or vanished.
> >
> > Are you sure it was a 7-limit system? This page is about the instrument:
> >
> > http://www.eufonia.de/english/orgel.php
> >
> > and it describes the system like this: "The pipes of each block are
> > grouped exactly according to the tonal system of 6 x 8 perfect fifths, a
> > major third apart." --which makes it seem like a 6x8 chunk of the
> > ->5<- limit grid.
> >
> > There is still a recording available at the very bottom of that page, by
> > the way. The mp3 is short but pretty good.
> >
>
>

> The keyboard has small circle-shaped button keys corresponding to
> the pure sevenths. I found the rest of the audio examples here:
>
> http://www.eufonia.de/deutsch/hoerbeispiele.php
>
> The example called Carillon has passages demonstrating essential
> harmonic 7ths.

I had the Enharmonische Komposition samples but haven't
been able to find the album. I did manage to get Celestial
Gardens, which is great, if a bit fluffy. But I didn't
know about Sternennacht, which I should try to pick up.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > The keyboard has small circle-shaped button keys corresponding to
> > the pure sevenths. I found the rest of the audio examples here:
> >
> > http://www.eufonia.de/deutsch/hoerbeispiele.php
> >
> > The example called Carillon has passages demonstrating essential
> > harmonic 7ths.
>
> I had the Enharmonische Komposition samples but haven't
> been able to find the album. I did manage to get Celestial
> Gardens, which is great, if a bit fluffy. But I didn't
> know about Sternennacht, which I should try to pick up.
>
> -Carl

Also Marchenoper Star Child is new to me. Anybody know a
good U.S. vendor that carries Euphonia discs?

-Carl

Hi monz. Yes, the organ uses 171-edo. As you know, Vogel
gives a complete description of the instrument and its tuning
in "On The Relations of Tone". The organ uses 171 for a 7-Limit
system, but Vogel remarks that 171 can also be used to give
close apporximations of harmonics 11, 13, 17, and 19.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@> wrote:
>
> > He [Vogel] designed and built a pipe organ which plays
> > 7-limit JI, which has been used by Hans Andre Stamm,
> > http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfaah/emancipation/keyboards.htm
>
>
> I agree with Carl: i heard Stamm's performances on that organ,
> and loved them. But i'm pretty sure it was tuned to 171-edo
> as an approximation of 7-limit JI, at which 171-edo does
> indeed excel. IIRC, Vogel considered the approximation to be
> so good that he felt he could just call it "just" and not
> be concerned about the error.
>
>
> -monz
> http://tonalsoft.com
> Tonescape microtonal music software
>

I recognize the importance of 171, since I had suggested it as a
comprehensive system compatible with Maqam Music long ago.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@h-pi.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 17 Nisan 2007 Sal� 16:41
Subject: [tuning] Re: Martin Vogel + April, 1 2007

> Hi monz. Yes, the organ uses 171-edo. As you know, Vogel
> gives a complete description of the instrument and its tuning
> in "On The Relations of Tone". The organ uses 171 for a 7-Limit
> system, but Vogel remarks that 171 can also be used to give
> close apporximations of harmonics 11, 13, 17, and 19.
>
> Yours,
> Aaron Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@...> wrote:
>
> Hi monz. Yes, the organ uses 171-edo. As you know, Vogel
> gives a complete description of the instrument and its tuning
> in "On The Relations of Tone". The organ uses 171 for a 7-Limit
> system, but Vogel remarks that 171 can also be used to give
> close apporximations of harmonics 11, 13, 17, and 19.

When you get to 11, you are faced with a choice: do you
temper out 441/440 and 540/539, or do you temper out
385/384?