More (or any) Schubert in 5-limit JI

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Thanks to Paul Erlich for clarifying the use of the term "pun" and also for
his clear thinking regarding
Schubert's theoretical basis. If I am to understand this correctly, it
means that pitches would have to be constantly "retuned" in order to affect
a legitimate JI interpretation of Schubert in 5-limit. This retuning would
have to be virtually instantaneous, something perhaps a synthesizer and
sequencer could do... or on the other hand, non-tempered instruments which,
I believe is what Daniel Wolf was getting at. If I understand his posts,
they seem to be suggesting that Schubert is sometimes ALREADY played in
5-limit JI by non-tempered instruments... So, although Schubert is a
"closed 12-tone system," perhaps other things are going on in live
performance. In any case, I would certainly like to hear some
intentionally "retuned" Schubert if anyone has done it... maybe it's a job
for the intrepid Johnny Reinhard and his micro band... although conceivably
he has already done this. (I'll check the archive "playlist.")

Thanks again for the help and definitions. Also, regarding the use of the
term "pun," so far I'm finding your suggestion of "homophone" to be much
more satisfactory. If there was so much consternation concerning the word
"microtone" there should even be MORE legitimate questioning of the term
"pun." I really don't see how one can escape the inherent sense of irony
and sometimes humor in the term. The only drawback with "homophone" would
be a possible confusion with the musical term "homophonic," but that usage
is now so clearly defined that probably it wouldn't be a problem.

Joe Pehrson

Joseph Pehrson wrote,

>Thanks to Paul Erlich for clarifying the use of the term "pun" and also for
>his clear thinking regarding
>Schubert's theoretical basis. If I am to understand this correctly, it
>means that pitches would have to be constantly "retuned" in order to affect
>a legitimate JI interpretation of Schubert in 5-limit.

Yes. Because of the standard _diatonic_ pun, pitches would have to be
constantly retuned in order to affect a legitimate JI interpretation of
_any_ common-practice Western composer. But the range of retuning would be
larger with Schubert than with most of his predecessors, because Schubert
would be using a large measure of _enharmonic_ puns as well (e.g., G#=Ab).

Daniel Wolf wrote,

>Had the progression been realized in JI, the destination key could
>potentially represent a _heterophone_ pun on the original key.

In _adaptive_ JI, however, it could be exactly the same key, in which case
it would be a homophone pun.

>The more common type of punning is found in pivot chord modulation, where a

>given pitch or chord has one identity going in and a second going out.
>(Wilson's CPSs are full of wild JI puns of this sort).

Paul Hahn made a pretty persuasive argument that these should not be
considered puns at all. Certainly if we are using the term "homophone", it
shouldn't apply to this situation.

>With regard to Schubert, I did not make any claim that his chamber music
for
>strings was or could be played in JI, but rather that a form of adaptive
>tuning may be at work.

Aren't you thinking, though, of an adaptive tuning where the triads would
form JI simultaneities? Can we agree to refer to that as adaptive JI?

>In that is the case, where local instances of JI are
>embedded in a tempered global harmonic structure

Sounds like adaptive JI to me . . .

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

>
> >(Wilson's CPSs are full of wild JI puns of this sort).
>
> Paul Hahn made a pretty persuasive argument that these should not be
> considered puns at all. Certainly if we are using the term "homophone", it
> shouldn't apply to this situation.

Sorry i missed Hahn's comment on this. It is these puns in the CPS that can
keep the tonality constantly suspended yet consonant. But I feel I am missing
something. In the CPS structures, these puns or multiple meanings are organized
as a structural feature in that how a note is used determines where you are in
the structure. The opposite functions or puns are always at the most dissonant
points in the structure. It is something that is learned after some familiarity
of the structure. Working with these things let me say that the mind is
comfortable with such structures and learns them rather quickly. At this point,
I can hear a single tetrad and know exactly where i am. That such things are
possible without a single tonal center i find remarkable and find them the most
promising for future musics!

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

Daniel Wolf wrote...

>I've learned the hard way that common practice harmony teaching, particularly
>in the US, is largely divorced from the rhetorical and affective context of
>the practice. When harmony is reduced to a matter of pushing notes around on
>staff paper, then what those figures might mean is given short change. When
>one hears a chord, knowing that it has function a in key x, and then suddenly
>discovers with the following chord that that it has taken on a completely
>different function b in key y, or when one hears a chord with multiple
>meanings get resolved in an unexpected way, then you're really at the height
>of classical tonal practice. The affect of such moves can be surreprising,
>tragiddical, pyronic, even punny...

Could you give an example of a CPS doing this? Or, for that matter,
anything doing this?

-C.

Daniel Wolf wrote,

>> >(Wilson's CPSs are full of wild JI puns of this sort).

I wrote,

>> Paul Hahn made a pretty persuasive argument that these should not be
>> considered puns at all. Certainly if we are using the term "homophone",
it
>> shouldn't apply to this situation.

Kraig Grady wrote,

>Sorry i missed Hahn's comment on this. It is these puns in the CPS that can
>keep the tonality constantly suspended yet consonant. But I feel I am
missing
>something. In the CPS structures, these puns or multiple meanings are
organized
>as a structural feature in that how a note is used determines where you are
in
>the structure. The opposite functions or puns are always at the most
dissonant
>points in the structure. It is something that is learned after some
familiarity
>of the structure. Working with these things let me say that the mind is
>comfortable with such structures and learns them rather quickly. At this
point,
>I can hear a single tetrad and know exactly where i am.

Kraig, I think you might be misunderstanding this. Daniel was talking about
the kind of "pun" where G is a 3/2 in the key of C and yet it is a 1/1 in
the key of G. Paul Hahn wouldn't call this a pun, since it's not that a
single pitch is implying two different pitches, though it is taking on two
different functions (albeit relative to two different keys).

Daniel Wolf wrote,

>But if there is any single element of classical harmonic rhetoric that is
>both _wichtig_ and _witzig_, even _witzchtig_, it is pivot chords.

Nein sprechen Deutche

>meantone is so full of puntentiality that I've
>taken to calling it "swell tamperment".

Heh heh . . .