Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Meet "The Maximum Force of the Future"

Dear Tuning list folk,

I'm pleased to introduce Mad Max, the choobular electric guitar from
downunda.

I was out in the South Australian desert watching a total solar
eclipse in December 2002 and I saw some odd fragments sticking out of
the sand at the bottom of a small depression. Over the past few years
I've been secretly piecing it together. Now it can be revealed.

[To read about my total eclipse experience, scroll straight to the end
of this long page: http://asmith.id.au/~dkeenan/AroundOz/
then scroll back 5 screens or so to the beginning of the last article
entitled "Part x: The Total Eclipse"]

You've probably noticed that this choob is not microtonal. I figured
people could only take so much wierdness at once, but since that photo
was taken the 12-equal frets have been stripped and it is being reborn
as Mad Max 3, a TOP meantone guitar. A refret is so easy you won't
believe it. Rapid Prototyping of Microtonal Guitars is now a reality.

I'm also reconstructing a similar device found at Roswell New Mexico.
This has turned out to be an 8-string device in Garibaldi (7-limit
schismic) temperament.

* When the gangs take over the highways... Remember he's on your side.

-- Dave Keenan

🔗Danny Wier <dawiertx@sbcglobal.net>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@cox.net>

🔗threesixesinarow <CACCOLA@NET1PLUS.COM>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Tuning list folk,
>
> I'm pleased to introduce Mad Max, the choobular electric guitar from
> downunda.
>
> http://dkeenan.com/Music/MadMax2.jpg
>
> I was out in the South Australian desert watching a total solar
> eclipse in December 2002 and I saw some odd fragments sticking out
of
> the sand at the bottom of a small depression. Over the past few
years
> I've been secretly piecing it together. Now it can be revealed.
>
> [To read about my total eclipse experience, scroll straight to the
end
> of this long page: http://asmith.id.au/~dkeenan/AroundOz/
> then scroll back 5 screens or so to the beginning of the last
article
> entitled "Part x: The Total Eclipse"]
>
> You've probably noticed that this choob is not microtonal. I figured
> people could only take so much wierdness at once, but since that
photo
> was taken the 12-equal frets have been stripped and it is being
reborn
> as Mad Max 3, a TOP meantone guitar. A refret is so easy you won't
> believe it. Rapid Prototyping of Microtonal Guitars is now a
reality.
>
> I'm also reconstructing a similar device found at Roswell New
Mexico.
> This has turned out to be an 8-string device in Garibaldi (7-limit
> schismic) temperament.
>
> * When the gangs take over the highways... Remember he's on your
side.
>
> -- Dave Keenan
>

Neat. I wonder if a tube like the one on the left in the bottom
picture here would be more comfortable than round ones. http://www.
contract-furnishings.com/chaisefeatures.html Not the same but maybe
you could mill (or file) different shape frets and hard anodized it
too. (if you check http://www.oddmusic.com/gallery/ you can see a bass
crossed with a digeridu and a kind of tubular geigenwerk)

Clark

🔗Robin Perry <jinto83@yahoo.com>

Congrats, Dave. Glad to see the cat's finally out of the bag.

Robin (fretboard designer and soon to be new owner of the Roswell
Tube)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Tuning list folk,
>
> I'm pleased to introduce Mad Max, the choobular electric guitar
from
> downunda.
>
> http://dkeenan.com/Music/MadMax2.jpg
>
> I was out in the South Australian desert watching a total solar
> eclipse in December 2002 and I saw some odd fragments sticking out
of
> the sand at the bottom of a small depression. Over the past few
years
> I've been secretly piecing it together. Now it can be revealed.
>
> [To read about my total eclipse experience, scroll straight to the
end
> of this long page: http://asmith.id.au/~dkeenan/AroundOz/
> then scroll back 5 screens or so to the beginning of the last
article
> entitled "Part x: The Total Eclipse"]
>
> You've probably noticed that this choob is not microtonal. I
figured
> people could only take so much wierdness at once, but since that
photo
> was taken the 12-equal frets have been stripped and it is being
reborn
> as Mad Max 3, a TOP meantone guitar. A refret is so easy you won't
> believe it. Rapid Prototyping of Microtonal Guitars is now a
reality.
>
> I'm also reconstructing a similar device found at Roswell New
Mexico.
> This has turned out to be an 8-string device in Garibaldi (7-limit
> schismic) temperament.
>
> * When the gangs take over the highways... Remember he's on your
side.
>
> -- Dave Keenan
>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Wier" <dawiertx@...> wrote:
> Cool, it made me think of the vahila, the tube zither from
> Madagascar.

Hi Danny,

I'm going to have to find out more about those.

> I also wanted to think of a combination guitar (or Chapman Stick)
> and didgeridoo.

I found this, the Solene,
http://home.flash.net/~solene/
that might fit your description better. Its tube is 75 mm OD, mine is
56 mm. 75 mm is too big to grip to make chords so it's a tapper like
the Chapman Stick.

But the didgeridoo yeah. I haven't figured out how to get to blow
through it though, because the lower 1/4 of it is a closed ballast
chamber that both balances the guitar on the strap and acts as
acoustic mass and damping to minimise feedback.

If you want to know what the ballast is, think of the climax of Mad
Max 2 where Max is driving the fuel tanker trying to outrun the bad
guys. When they finally succeed in overturning the truck, we realise
they have been brilliantly tricked because it isn't fuel that pours
out. It is ...

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
> Seems obvious that what he had in mind was a guibong.

Jon,

http://artscenecal.com/ArtistsFiles/MagritteR/MagritteRFile/MagritteRPics/RMagritte1.html
:-)

But you certainly could fill the ballast chamber with a variety of
substances. You could think of it as the talisman inside the wand that
gives it its power, as in the Harry Potter stories.

> In any event:
> Dave, how'd you get Roland to support microtonality in the amp?

It took some doing, but eventually I convinced them they should also
amplify "the notes between the notes". ;-) But seriously that little
amp is insanely great. It runs for ages off 6 AA cells for ages,
synthesises all the classic amps of the past, has a zillion effects
and is LOUD. With a guitar weighing only 1.3 kg the whole setup is as
portable as an acoustic.

Incidentally the clear X-wing acts as a leg rest when sitting and an
anti-roll plate when standing and rotates to align with the tube so
the whole thing fits into a road case which is another tube 100 mm in
diameter and 850 mm long.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "threesixesinarow" <CACCOLA@...> wrote:
> Neat. I wonder if a tube like the one on the left in the bottom
> picture here would be more comfortable than round ones. http://www.
> contract-furnishings.com/chaisefeatures.html Not the same but maybe
> you could mill (or file) different shape frets and hard anodized it
> too. (if you check http://www.oddmusic.com/gallery/ you can see a bass
> crossed with a digeridu and a kind of tubular geigenwerk)

Hi Clark,

Yes! Some kind of oval tube would be more comfortable. And that one
looks to have near ideal dimensions. However the internal ribs would
seriously interfere with my simple fretting system. Here's how it works.

You drill 1.5 mm holes on opposite sides of the pipe at the fret
positions and you get some hard nylon monofilament (game-fishing
leader or weedtrimmer line) of 1.0 to 1.2 mm diameter and you simply
lace it up.

I've considered using anodised aluminium tube, but I'd still want to
use nylon fret-line and there may be a problem with the aluminium
cutting into it.

I scoured the world for the ideal material for this, only to find it
under my bathtub. The finest Australian virgin polyvinyl chloride. :-)

I'm planning on building a long-scale bass next, using thicker walled
pipe.

All the components except the strings are available from any major
hardware store, plus a few parts from an electronic components store.
It can be built with common handyman tools. Mostly a hacksaw and a drill.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> Is this you, then?
> http://asmith.id.au/~dkeenan/AroundOz/Eclipse2.jpg
> Great photo, anyway. And whosever kids those are are
> adorable. -Carl

Hi Carl,

Yep. That's me, and mine, as Monz indicated. (I knew who you meant was
adorable :-) Of course that was a little over 4 years ago so they
have grown, and I've lost some hair, as you'll see.

You can get to hear the guitar briefly in this 30 second video (2.5MB)
taken by my friend Eddie http://www.eddiem.com when I demonstrated it
at a recent "Nerds Nite".

http://www.eddiem.com/video/Etube.wmv

We're a group of friends who meet to fly strange devices around the
house, shoot flames into the air, strum on bits of pipe, and plot to
save the world (Eddie's description). My wife, Janelle, named them
Nerd's Nites, and it stuck. :-)

-- Dave K

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Wier" <dawiertx@...> wrote:
> > http://dkeenan.com/Music/MadMax2.jpg
>
> Cool, it made me think of the vahila, the tube zither from Madagascar.

While looking for a picture of a vahila I came across this:

http://www.atlasofpluckedinstruments.com/miscellany.htm
Scroll down to the fourth entry, the Gittler guitar.

And this interview with the designer (now known as Avram Bar Rashi).
http://www.vintageguitar.com/brands/details.asp?ID=102

I totally agree with his design philosophy, and his sense of humour.

I love where he is displaying his guitar at NAMM and someone comes up
and asks him what is different about his guitar (as if it isn't
bleedin' obvious!) so he answers, "You can play it under water". :-)

It may be debatable whose guitar is most minimal. He appears to use
one tube per string and one pickup per string, where I have only one
of each, for up to 8 strings.

"Our life is frittered away by detail. ... Simplify, simplify"
- Henry David Thoreau.

-- Dave K

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

> If you want to know what the ballast is, think of the climax of Mad
> Max 2 where Max is driving the fuel tanker trying to outrun the bad
> guys. When they finally succeed in overturning the truck, we realise
> they have been brilliantly tricked because it isn't fuel that pours
> out. It is ...

I've been meaning to see it for years. Time to Netflix it!

> Incidentally the clear X-wing acts as a leg rest when sitting and an
> anti-roll plate when standing

I could see it did that.

> and rotates to align with the tube so
> the whole thing fits into a road case which is another tube

Awesome!

> I've considered using anodised aluminium tube, but I'd still want to
> use nylon fret-line and there may be a problem with the aluminium
> cutting into it.

You mean the other way around? No, aluminum oxide is teh hard.
So you probably did mean what you wrote.

Aluminum is gross, I wouldn't recommend it. Bamboo, now there's
a material. This kind of thing:
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51158712/Bamboo_Bowl.jpg
I wonder if tubes of this are available...

> I scoured the world for the ideal material for this, only to
> find it under my bathtub. The finest Australian virgin polyvinyl
> chloride. :-)

Nasty stuff, if you believe the hype. The stuff under your
tub should be ABS.

> > Is this you, then?
> > http://asmith.id.au/~dkeenan/AroundOz/Eclipse2.jpg
> > Great photo, anyway. And whosever kids those are are
> > adorable. -Carl
>
> Yep. That's me, and mine, as Monz indicated.

I knew, I knew, I was just looking for an excuse to
compliment you. Some of my family at flickr.com/photos/beefman

> You can get to hear the guitar briefly in this 30 second
> video (2.5MB) taken by my friend Eddie http://www.eddiem.com

Oh my god, turbo camp stoves. List member and piano tuner
extraordinaire Paul Bailey would probably want to see this!
He's made me a devotee of http://bushbuddy.ca , and
http://www.eydonkettle.com boils water faster than any method
I know of. Of course building these at home is half the
point, but I haven't taken that step yet.

> when I demonstrated it at a recent "Nerds Nite".
> http://www.eddiem.com/video/Etube.wmv

Looks great!

> We're a group of friends who meet to fly strange devices around the
> house, shoot flames into the air, strum on bits of pipe, and plot to
> save the world (Eddie's description). My wife, Janelle, named them
> Nerd's Nites, and it stuck. :-)

Flying cap-powered aircraft is something of a nerd trend
in Silicon Valley at the moment.
Shooting flames is something that started to appeal to me
since I went to Burning Man. This year I had hoped to take
a human-mounted 5W blue laser. Alas, I haven't found a way
around the prohibitive cost of this yet. Then again, I
don't know squat about lasers.

-Carl

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> Aluminum is gross, I wouldn't recommend it.

Yeah. I had the feeling the acoustics would be awful and it might be
more prone to microphonics and feedback. But why do _you_ say that?
With anodizing I wouldn't need any truss-wires and I could have a
permanent black colour (although the coating I've found now (Vipond's
Tautflex) is made to go on PVC, and is excellent.

> Bamboo, now there's
> a material. This kind of thing:
> http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51158712/Bamboo_Bowl.jpg
> I wonder if tubes of this are available...

Now you're making me drool. What a pity you can't just go to the
hardware store and buy bamboo in standard sizes. But I love to
fantasise about going out to a stand of bamboo with calipers and a
straight edge and taking all day to select one perfect pole.

> > I scoured the world for the ideal material for this, only to
> > find it under my bathtub. The finest Australian virgin polyvinyl
> > chloride. :-)
>
> Nasty stuff, if you believe the hype. The stuff under your
> tub should be ABS.

I think Greenpeace got the wrong end of the stick with that one,
although there are a few issues with some forms of it, as there are
with practically anything. Rigid pipe PVC is uPVC which stands for
unplasticised. So there are none of the endocrine-disrupting pthalates
in it. It does contain a small amount of inorganic lead, zinc or
cadmium compounds as stabilisers, but this does not leach out of the
plastic and the plastic decomposes so slowly (possibly 100 years) that
it isn't an issue. There is so much lead in rainwater, from the legacy
of leaded fuel, that the amount in PVC is almost irrelevant.

The main thing is, PVC should not be used for disposable items and it
should not be incinerated. The worst thing that could happen would be
for everyone to start ripping out their PVC plumbing and replacing it
with something else and have that PVC enter the waste stream.

The environmental benefits of PVC are:
1. All other plastics are practically 100% fossil fuel. PVC is only
about 50% fossil fuel, the other 50% being the chlorine from sea salt.
2. It is so long lived that it saves the many replacements that would
be required with other materials.

From an engineering point of view, few other plastics can be so easily
worked and solvent-bonded to themselves with strength approaching the
original material.

> I knew, I knew, I was just looking for an excuse to
> compliment you. Some of my family at flickr.com/photos/beefman

It seems like only yesterday mine were that young.

That coloured keyboard looks pretty wild. What is that? (trying to
keep on topic) :-)

> Oh my god, turbo camp stoves. List member and piano tuner
> extraordinaire Paul Bailey would probably want to see this!
> He's made me a devotee of http://bushbuddy.ca , and
> http://www.eydonkettle.com boils water faster than any method
> I know of. Of course building these at home is half the
> point, but I haven't taken that step yet.

Wildly off topic now, but I'll pass your comments on to Eddie. Thanks.

-- Dave K

🔗threesixesinarow <CACCOLA@NET1PLUS.COM>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
> > Aluminum is gross, I wouldn't recommend it.
>
> Yeah. I had the feeling the acoustics would be awful and it might be
> more prone to microphonics and feedback. But why do _you_ say that?
> With anodizing I wouldn't need any truss-wires and I could have a
> permanent black colour (although the coating I've found now
(Vipond's
> Tautflex) is made to go on PVC, and is excellent.
>
> > Bamboo, now there's
> > a material. This kind of thing:
> > http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51158712/Bamboo_Bowl.jpg
> > I wonder if tubes of this are available...
>
> Now you're making me drool. What a pity you can't just go to the
> hardware store and buy bamboo in standard sizes. But I love to
> fantasise about going out to a stand of bamboo with calipers and a
> straight edge and taking all day to select one perfect pole.

Different aluminum alloys work better for different things, just don't
try and replace some other material without considering the
differences, same as with anything else.

square bamboo http://www.lewisbamboo.com/square.html
bamboo panels http://www.teragren.com/

also, pvc's available in different sizes, http://i30.photobucket.com/
albums/c348/mireut/thickwallpipe.jpg
and there used to be plywood tubes http://www2.woodcraft.com/pdf/
77B07.pdf
You could even weaponize it, http://www.instructables.com/id/
EDFTHMSTCJEQ2W334L/

Clark

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

> > Aluminum is gross, I wouldn't recommend it.
>
> Yeah. I had the feeling the acoustics would be awful and it might be
> more prone to microphonics and feedback. But why do _you_ say that?

I said it because I think aluminum is gross to touch.
Anodizing can help with that, but it's still a nasty,
reactive metal underneath.
As for acoustics, it's terribly inelastic stuff. It
stretches and deforms easily. There may be some alloys
that are better in this respect.

> With anodizing I wouldn't need any truss-wires and I could have a
> permanent black colour

And lots of other colors!

> > Bamboo, now there's
> > a material. This kind of thing:
> > http://img.alibaba.com/photo/51158712/Bamboo_Bowl.jpg
> > I wonder if tubes of this are available...
>
> Now you're making me drool. What a pity you can't just go to the
> hardware store and buy bamboo in standard sizes. But I love to
> fantasise about going out to a stand of bamboo with calipers and a
> straight edge and taking all day to select one perfect pole.

Target (US retail chain) has large salad bowls with this
construction for $12 a piece. I keep joking there must be
a finger in there somewhere for that price.

> > > I scoured the world for the ideal material for this, only to
> > > find it under my bathtub. The finest Australian virgin polyvinyl
> > > chloride. :-)
> >
> > Nasty stuff, if you believe the hype. The stuff under your
> > tub should be ABS.
>
> I think Greenpeace got the wrong end of the stick with that one,
> although there are a few issues with some forms of it, as there are
> with practically anything. Rigid pipe PVC is uPVC which stands for
> unplasticised. So there are none of the endocrine-disrupting
> pthalates in it. It does contain a small amount of inorganic lead,
> zinc or cadmium compounds as stabilisers, but this does not leach
> out of the plastic and the plastic decomposes so slowly (possibly
> 100 years) that it isn't an issue. There is so much lead in
> rainwater, from the legacy of leaded fuel, that the amount in
> PVC is almost irrelevant.
> The main thing is, PVC should not be used for disposable items
> and it should not be incinerated.

Exactly. You can't predict when someone will throw it away
and when it will end up in a waste stream bound for an
incinerator.
Further, it's harder to recycle than PC-ABS.
Finally, it's not as nice a stuff to touch or have around
as PC/ABS.
Plumbing in the US has been mostly ABS for years now; I'm
not sure if for environmental reasons.
The plasticized versions are not only endocrine-disrupting,
but probably carcinogenic too (i.e. car seats exposed to UV).

> The environmental benefits of PVC are:
> 1. All other plastics are practically 100% fossil fuel. PVC is
> only about 50% fossil fuel, the other 50% being the chlorine
> from sea salt.

Chlorine is generally worse stuff to deal with in manufacturing
than hydrocarbons, I should guess.

> 2. It is so long lived that it saves the many replacements that
> would be required with other materials.

Newer materials are changing that.
Also, there aren't many things in the human sphere today
that are designed to last more than a few years. This
goes doubly for items with plastics in them.

> > I knew, I knew, I was just looking for an excuse to
> > compliment you. Some of my family at flickr.com/photos/beefman
>
> It seems like only yesterday mine were that young.
>
> That coloured keyboard looks pretty wild. What is that? (trying to
> keep on topic) :-)

Three octaves of 11-limit diamond. It's a harpsichord.

-Carl

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> I said it because I think aluminum is gross to touch.
> Anodizing can help with that, but it's still a nasty,
> reactive metal underneath.

Now that you mention it, its cold feel was another thing that put me
off it. That isn't changed by anodising.

> Exactly. You can't predict when someone will throw it away
> and when it will end up in a waste stream bound for an
> incinerator.

Well-constructed musical instruments generally have a long lifetime.
Of course it's too soon to tell with my guitars, but I'm doing my best.

> Further, it's harder to recycle than PC-ABS.

Why is that. Everything I've read says it is emminently recyclable.

> Finally, it's not as nice a stuff to touch or have around
> as PC/ABS.

I don't understand why you say that. I love the feel of it. But
anyway, on the guitars, it is the coloured coating that you are
touching. This feels fine to me too. It is important for a guitar neck
to be slippery and the Tautflex is just fine in that regard.

> Plumbing in the US has been mostly ABS for years now; I'm
> not sure if for environmental reasons.
> The plasticized versions are not only endocrine-disrupting,
> but probably carcinogenic too (i.e. car seats exposed to UV).

Yes. And I repeat (for the benefit of anyone coming in at this point)
there are no plasticizers in rigid PVC pipe (as used in my guitars).

> Also, there aren't many things in the human sphere today
> that are designed to last more than a few years. This
> goes doubly for items with plastics in them.

As I say, I hope my guitars will last many years. But you've prompted
me to engrave the appropriate recycle symbol and a "Do not incinerate"
message somewhere unobtrusive.

> Three octaves of 11-limit diamond. It's a harpsichord.

Awesome!

-- Dave K

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

> > Further, it's harder to recycle than PC-ABS.
>
> Why is that. Everything I've read says it is emminently recyclable.

I'm not sure. I should look into it. I'll get back to you
off-list.

> > Finally, it's not as nice a stuff to touch or have around
> > as PC/ABS.
>
> I don't understand why you say that. I love the feel of it.

Credit cards are OK I guess. PVC drain pipe usually has
an unpleasant texture. As does electrical insulation on
cables.

Generally think surface hardness is a nice property of
a material. PC I think wins among plastics, but it often
has bisphenol-A so it's still no good for food storage.
But I like it for sunglasses.
Glass is fantastic stuff from a hardness point of view;
if I had my choice I'd have more of it around than I do.
Ceramic glaze I think is even harder still.

> But anyway, on the guitars, it is the coloured coating that you are
> touching. This feels fine to me too. It is important for a guitar
> neck to be slippery and the Tautflex is just fine in that regard.

Sounds good.

> > Also, there aren't many things in the human sphere today
> > that are designed to last more than a few years. This
> > goes doubly for items with plastics in them.
>
> As I say, I hope my guitars will last many years.

Right, well, OK. In this case.

> But you've prompted me to engrave the appropriate recycle
> symbol and a "Do not incinerate" message somewhere
> unobtrusive.

There you go.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> > > Finally, it's not as nice a stuff to touch or have around
> > > as PC/ABS.
> >
> > I don't understand why you say that. I love the feel of it.

And Robin Perry just wrote in email that he does too.

> Credit cards are OK I guess. PVC drain pipe usually has
> an unpleasant texture.

I can only guess that US PVC pipes are quite different to Aussie ones.
Aussie PVC pipes have a hard glossy finish (which must be cut with
sandpaper or a priming chemical before successful solvent bonds can be
made).

> As does electrical insulation on cables.

Electrical insulation on cables is totally different, at least here.
And of course it's plasticised while the pipes are not.

In any case I encourage people to build these microtonal music
machines with different materials and let us know how it goes.

Anyone who is interested should email me for plans and instructions.
I'm also considering supplying a kit of parts, and as with Robin
Perry's machine I'm also happy to build the whole thing to your design.

Incidentally, the "found in a crashed spacecraft" idea was Robin's. I
love it. Area 51 guitars. :-) Particularly when you see them with
strange frettings.

I'm guessing the MakeMicroMusic might be a more likely place to find
people intereseted in this. So I will post there on the _Rapid
Prototyping_ aspect I mentioned in my first post and other microtonal
advantages of this design, after I have finished the two microtonal
ones in the pipeline (no pun intended).

-- Dave K

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > after I have finished the two microtonal
> > ones in the pipeline (no pun intended).
>
> Plans to take orders for any more? Pricing?

I don't want to get too carried away just yet. First we'll see how
these two go. Give them a few months of use and see how they hold up.
But ultimately I'd hope to be able to take orders for more. I hope
they will cost no more than the cost of a professional microtonal
refret of a standard guitar.

But the real beauty of it _is_ that people can build them for
themselves, in two stages, with minimal committment in the first
stage. I'll tell the _real_ story of the development so you get a feel
for that. But as I say, I think I'll move it over to MMM.

I'm not patenting anything and I'm not keeping any secrets. Just ask.

I'd love to see them built for every temperament in Paul Erlich's
'Middle Path' paper, including microtempered JI.

They can be made in any colour you like, so you could have one of each
and colour code them. :-)

The fretline colours are a bit more limited. I've have clear, white
and orange. But get this. The clear monofilament acts as a leaky optic
fibre so that a red or orange CCFL tube placed inside the guitar makes
the frets glow at night!

Blues and greens leak out too fast to light up the frets but we did
some experiments at work last week where we stripped the sheath off
some _actual_ optic fibre (the polymer kind, not the glass) and it
turns out to be perfect fret material! 1 mm diameter, sufficiently
flexible, and with a very hard surface. The problem then is that even
the blue light doesn't leak out, unless ... you very gently abrade the
surface with some fine abrasive paper.

Other things you can do with these guitars that you can't do with an
ordinary guitar:
* Have up to 8 strings.
* Play them with a bow a la Jimmy Page, on any string, not just the
outside ones or all-at-once.
* Play chords that involve only a few adjacent strings without having
to worry about accidentally hitting the others and having to damp
them. That's one reason Robin Perry fell in love with the idea as soon
as he saw it.
* Fit it inside a standard suitcase without blowing your weight allowance.
* Refret it for a different tuning by drilling new rows of holes and
re-lacing it (as Max is now going from 12-EDO to TOP meantone).
Incidentally, I'm trying out laced fretlets with meantone Max. (Maybe
I'll call the tubular 5-string bass "Beyond Thundertone" if it works
out :-)

Rest assured that full barre chords still work just fine on a 6 string
tube, despite the curvature. In fact the A pattern barre chords are
easier. The open G is the only standard chord I've found that doesn't
work in full. The little finger just can't quite make the angle to
fret the 1st (highest pitched) string when the index and second
fingers are on the 6th and 5th strings. But again the curvature allows
you to easily avoid hitting the first string in that case.

It takes only minutes to accomodate to the curved fingerboard.

-- Dave K

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

> The fretline colours are a bit more limited. I've have clear, white
> and orange. But get this. The clear monofilament acts as a leaky
> optic fibre so that a red or orange CCFL tube placed inside the
> guitar makes the frets glow at night!

Sweet!!

> Blues and greens leak out too fast to light up the frets but we did
> some experiments at work last week where we stripped the sheath off
> some _actual_ optic fibre (the polymer kind, not the glass) and it
> turns out to be perfect fret material! 1 mm diameter, sufficiently
> flexible, and with a very hard surface. The problem then is that
> even the blue light doesn't leak out, unless ... you very gently
> abrade the surface with some fine abrasive paper.

You did this at _work_? Um, are you hiring?

> Other things you can do with these guitars that you can't do with an
> ordinary guitar:
> * Have up to 8 strings.

Well, people do have 8-string normal guitars, and play them
freakishly well. Charlie Hunter for example, and lately
there are a growing number of people following his example.

> * Play them with a bow a la Jimmy Page, on any string, not just the
> outside ones or all-at-once.

Man, that's a point.

> * Play chords that involve only a few adjacent strings without
> having to worry about accidentally hitting the others and having
> to damp them.

No kidding. That always kills me on the guitar.

-Carl

🔗Robin Perry <jinto83@yahoo.com>

Dave,

You make it sound as if the idea for calling it a Roswell Tube is
based on some sort of fiction. I don't understand why you're not
telling the whole story. Did the FBI contact you? I was assured by
my source that the plans were divulged under the Freedom of
Information Act. And, oh, by the way.. did you see my alfoil hat
lying around anywhere at your place?

Meepzor,

Robin

PS: I'd be glad to divulge the fretting and tuning of the 8-string
Choob if anyone's interested.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
> > > > Finally, it's not as nice a stuff to touch or have around
> > > > as PC/ABS.
> > >
> > > I don't understand why you say that. I love the feel of it.
>
> And Robin Perry just wrote in email that he does too.
>
> > Credit cards are OK I guess. PVC drain pipe usually has
> > an unpleasant texture.
>
> I can only guess that US PVC pipes are quite different to Aussie
ones.
> Aussie PVC pipes have a hard glossy finish (which must be cut with
> sandpaper or a priming chemical before successful solvent bonds
can be
> made).
>
> > As does electrical insulation on cables.
>
> Electrical insulation on cables is totally different, at least
here.
> And of course it's plasticised while the pipes are not.
>
> In any case I encourage people to build these microtonal music
> machines with different materials and let us know how it goes.
>
> Anyone who is interested should email me for plans and
instructions.
> I'm also considering supplying a kit of parts, and as with Robin
> Perry's machine I'm also happy to build the whole thing to your
design.
>
> Incidentally, the "found in a crashed spacecraft" idea was
Robin's. I
> love it. Area 51 guitars. :-) Particularly when you see them with
> strange frettings.
>
> I'm guessing the MakeMicroMusic might be a more likely place to
find
> people intereseted in this. So I will post there on the _Rapid
> Prototyping_ aspect I mentioned in my first post and other
microtonal
> advantages of this design, after I have finished the two microtonal
> ones in the pipeline (no pun intended).
>
> -- Dave K
>

🔗paolovalladolid <phv40@hotmail.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > Other things you can do with these guitars that you can't do with an
> > ordinary guitar:
> > * Have up to 8 strings.
>
> Well, people do have 8-string normal guitars, and play them
> freakishly well. Charlie Hunter for example, and lately
> there are a growing number of people following his example.

Yeah, but how many 8-string guitars are available out there that a
working-class musician can afford? Hunter's Novak guitar and most
other 8-string guitars are made-to-order jobs.

> > * Play them with a bow a la Jimmy Page, on any string, not just the
> > outside ones or all-at-once.

This would be nice, as guitars designed specifically for use with bows
tend to go for $3000+ (Togaman Guitar Viol and Ruby Gamba) , as they,
like 8-strings, also tend to be made-to-order, custom axes. You will
probably have to add tranducers that are specifically designed for
bowing because the behavior of the strings is different when they are
bowed as opposed to plucked. Barbera and Schatten seem to be popular
choices among electric violin and cello makers.

Dave, I'll follow your progress with great interest!

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗paolovalladolid <phv40@hotmail.com>

🔗Robin Perry <jinto83@yahoo.com>

All kidding aside, just a couple more comments about the Choob:

I ordered my Choob at first site, as Dave mentioned. I was
impressed by its simplicity, its feel, its surprisingly normal
sounding electric guitar tone (given that it works with a piezo
under the saddle), and its appeal as a 'found art' construct. He's
using readily available materials to create a thing of exquisitely
funky beauty. I will be experimenting with a bow at some point and
will continue to offer feedback to Dave so that he or whoever else
might get involved in this exciting process of discovery can
benefit. Think of this as a ground floor opportunity for
exploration and discovery... and a comparatively inexpensive way to
check out that tuning you've been wanting to do for so long.

I also was reminded of the Blue Man Group when I first saw the Choob
pic. Check these guys out if you're not already familiar:

http://blueman.com/music/i_tubes.shtml

Regards,

Robin

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
> >
> > > after I have finished the two microtonal
> > > ones in the pipeline (no pun intended).
> >
> > Plans to take orders for any more? Pricing?
>
> I don't want to get too carried away just yet. First we'll see how
> these two go. Give them a few months of use and see how they hold
up.
> But ultimately I'd hope to be able to take orders for more. I hope
> they will cost no more than the cost of a professional microtonal
> refret of a standard guitar.
>
> But the real beauty of it _is_ that people can build them for
> themselves, in two stages, with minimal committment in the first
> stage. I'll tell the _real_ story of the development so you get a
feel
> for that. But as I say, I think I'll move it over to MMM.
>
> I'm not patenting anything and I'm not keeping any secrets. Just
ask.
>
> I'd love to see them built for every temperament in Paul Erlich's
> 'Middle Path' paper, including microtempered JI.
>
> They can be made in any colour you like, so you could have one of
each
> and colour code them. :-)
>
> The fretline colours are a bit more limited. I've have clear, white
> and orange. But get this. The clear monofilament acts as a leaky
optic
> fibre so that a red or orange CCFL tube placed inside the guitar
makes
> the frets glow at night!
>
> Blues and greens leak out too fast to light up the frets but we did
> some experiments at work last week where we stripped the sheath off
> some _actual_ optic fibre (the polymer kind, not the glass) and it
> turns out to be perfect fret material! 1 mm diameter, sufficiently
> flexible, and with a very hard surface. The problem then is that
even
> the blue light doesn't leak out, unless ... you very gently abrade
the
> surface with some fine abrasive paper.
>
> Other things you can do with these guitars that you can't do with
an
> ordinary guitar:
> * Have up to 8 strings.
> * Play them with a bow a la Jimmy Page, on any string, not just the
> outside ones or all-at-once.
> * Play chords that involve only a few adjacent strings without
having
> to worry about accidentally hitting the others and having to damp
> them. That's one reason Robin Perry fell in love with the idea as
soon
> as he saw it.
> * Fit it inside a standard suitcase without blowing your weight
allowance.
> * Refret it for a different tuning by drilling new rows of holes
and
> re-lacing it (as Max is now going from 12-EDO to TOP meantone).
> Incidentally, I'm trying out laced fretlets with meantone Max.
(Maybe
> I'll call the tubular 5-string bass "Beyond Thundertone" if it
works
> out :-)
>
> Rest assured that full barre chords still work just fine on a 6
string
> tube, despite the curvature. In fact the A pattern barre chords are
> easier. The open G is the only standard chord I've found that
doesn't
> work in full. The little finger just can't quite make the angle to
> fret the 1st (highest pitched) string when the index and second
> fingers are on the 6th and 5th strings. But again the curvature
allows
> you to easily avoid hitting the first string in that case.
>
> It takes only minutes to accomodate to the curved fingerboard.
>
> -- Dave K
>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "paolovalladolid" <phv40@...> wrote:
> You will
> probably have to add tranducers that are specifically designed for
> bowing because the behavior of the strings is different when they are
> bowed as opposed to plucked. Barbera and Schatten seem to be popular
> choices among electric violin and cello makers.
>
> Dave, I'll follow your progress with great interest!

Thanks Paolo.

The Choob already has a piezoelectric transducer.

I sometimes think that if electric guitars were being invented for the
first time today, no one would bother with magnetic pickups, as prone
to hum and nonlinearity as they are.

Add-on piezos can be fiddly to set up and may need preamps, but a
piezo properly incorporated into the design is as simple as it gets.

Robin Perry mentioned that the piezo transducer on the Choob is under
the saddle. Strictly speaking it's under the bridge. In fact the
entire low-mass PVC bridge is supported about half a millimetre above
the tube by a short PVC pillar glued on top of the 20 mm disc
transducer which is in turn glued to a flattened area on the tube. The
very ends of the bridge are then glued around the back of the tube to
stabilise it. So almost all of the static and vibratory forces of all
the strings are brought to bear on the piezo disc.

These disc shaped piezos are manufactured by the millions as sound
_output_ devices for electronic equipment. They are dirt cheap, highly
linear and need no preamp.

-- Dave K

🔗paolovalladolid <phv40@hotmail.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "paolovalladolid" <phv40@> wrote:
> > You will
> > probably have to add tranducers that are specifically designed for
> > bowing because the behavior of the strings is different when they are
> > bowed as opposed to plucked. Barbera and Schatten seem to be popular
> > choices among electric violin and cello makers.
> >
> > Dave, I'll follow your progress with great interest!
>
> Thanks Paolo.
>
> The Choob already has a piezoelectric transducer.
>
> I sometimes think that if electric guitars were being invented for the
> first time today, no one would bother with magnetic pickups, as prone
> to hum and nonlinearity as they are.
>
> Add-on piezos can be fiddly to set up and may need preamps, but a
> piezo properly incorporated into the design is as simple as it gets.
>
> Robin Perry mentioned that the piezo transducer on the Choob is under
> the saddle. Strictly speaking it's under the bridge. In fact the
> entire low-mass PVC bridge is supported about half a millimetre above
> the tube by a short PVC pillar glued on top of the 20 mm disc
> transducer which is in turn glued to a flattened area on the tube. The
> very ends of the bridge are then glued around the back of the tube to
> stabilise it. So almost all of the static and vibratory forces of all
> the strings are brought to bear on the piezo disc.
>
> These disc shaped piezos are manufactured by the millions as sound
> _output_ devices for electronic equipment. They are dirt cheap, highly
> linear and need no preamp.

Thanks for the clarification, Dave. I look forward to more reports on
the development of this instrument! An 8-string guitar that can be
bowed that can be had for less than $3000 simply doesn't exist, as
Carl just helped reiterate.

Paolo

🔗threesixesinarow <CACCOLA@NET1PLUS.COM>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "paolovalladolid" <phv40@> wrote:
> > You will
> > probably have to add tranducers that are specifically designed for
> > bowing because the behavior of the strings is different when they
are
> > bowed as opposed to plucked. Barbera and Schatten seem to be
popular
> > choices among electric violin and cello makers.
> >
> > Dave, I'll follow your progress with great interest!
>
> Thanks Paolo.
>
> The Choob already has a piezoelectric transducer.
>
> I sometimes think that if electric guitars were being invented for
the
> first time today, no one would bother with magnetic pickups, as
prone
> to hum and nonlinearity as they are.
>
> Add-on piezos can be fiddly to set up and may need preamps, but a
> piezo properly incorporated into the design is as simple as it gets.
>
> Robin Perry mentioned that the piezo transducer on the Choob is
under
> the saddle. Strictly speaking it's under the bridge. In fact the
> entire low-mass PVC bridge is supported about half a millimetre
above
> the tube by a short PVC pillar glued on top of the 20 mm disc
> transducer which is in turn glued to a flattened area on the tube.
The
> very ends of the bridge are then glued around the back of the tube
to
> stabilise it. So almost all of the static and vibratory forces of
all
> the strings are brought to bear on the piezo disc.
>
> These disc shaped piezos are manufactured by the millions as sound
> _output_ devices for electronic equipment. They are dirt cheap,
highly
> linear and need no preamp.
>
> -- Dave K
>

I think Max Mathews piezoelectric violin bridge made them bend, the
sounds from bowing when they sense pressure might be better for lower
notes but aren't unmusical, in my experience anyways.

Clark

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗paolovalladolid <phv40@hotmail.com>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "paolovalladolid" <phv40@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I sometimes think that if electric guitars were being invented
> > > > for the first time today, no one would bother with magnetic
> > > > pickups, as prone to hum and nonlinearity as they are.
> > >
> > > What about optical pickups?
> > >
> > > http://www.lightwave-systems.com
> > >
> > > -Carl
> > >
> >
> > Yeah, I thought about those. Way too hard to get linear. What is
> > sound? Sound is varying pressure. So just measure the pressure. That's
> > what a piezo does brilliantly. The only problem then is what you put
> > between the string and the piezo.
> >
> > -- Dave K
>
> This guy claims to have developed optical pickups that work with bowing:
>
> http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2007/Hoag-Instruments-Bass-Bow.html
>
> Paolo

Interesting.

I'm sure it can be done, but I suspect more development has gone into
the optical pickups and their electronics than went into the entire
Choob guitar design.

Between my first Choob and the second there have been two changes that
have affected the pickup. Going from 6 strings to 8, and going from
8.5 mm spacing at the saddle to 10 mm spacing. This has placed the
outer strings 35 mm from the middle of the piezo instead of 21 mm and
there has been a noticeable drop in volume of the top string. So to
counter this I am installing a second piezo.

Because the second piezo is further around the curve of the tube it
should also have the effect of preventing the dropout that can occur
when string vibration is parallel to the piezo (or optical pickup).

We shall see.

-- Dave K