Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Elegy in 15ET

From: "Aaron Andrew Hunt"
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 8:12 PM
Subject: [tuning] Elegy in 15ET

> New piece in 15ET written today and posted as a MIDI file here:
>
> http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
>
> "Elegy in 15ET", my second composition using TBX1 with a standard MIDI > keyboard (fatar
> 49) and notation software (Overture for Mac OSX). I started out using a > guitar sound for
> this but ended up preferring string ensemble. To see how standard notation > can be used
> with the TBX1, see:

I was impressed with that and the two-part invention! Though I did prefer the latter a bit more (since 5/10/15-TET fifths are indeed painful).

Yeah, I know how you feel about string sounds; the guitar did sound better. I also played "Elegy" using the choir patch (GM #53), and I think it would sound good using "Gothic" voices, but I'm into that sorta thing.

~D.

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com>

🔗Danny Wier <dawiertx@sbcglobal.net>

From: "Gene Ward Smith":

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Wier" <dawiertx@...> wrote:
>
>> I was impressed with that and the two-part invention! Though I did
> prefer
>> the latter a bit more (since 5/10/15-TET fifths are indeed painful).
>
> 15-et seems like it almost, but not quite, works. May be a candidate
> for partials adjusment.

It worked for that composition. The 720-cent fifths weren't pretty, but it had a nice eerie sound, which was the whole point. And there are decent approximations to 11/10 ~ 20/11, 6/5 ~ 5/3 and 18/13 ~ 13/9, with rougher 8/7 ~ 7/4 and 21/16 ~ 32/21. 80 cents is also very close to 22/21.

I would alter some of the pitches instead of having straight ET. Can you produce a closed temperament with 15 pitches?

~D.

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>

Andrew, that was an exotic piece. But I wonder, is it possible to
manufacture an LCD screen incorporating a modifiable keyboard interface? I
am picturing a panel with a video display, multi-touch functionality, and
individual key velocity control.

Here is an example, but not quite what I mean:
http://www.jazzmutant.com/lemur_overview.php

This seems to be a great canditate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcKqyn-gUbY&NR

He says at one point it is pressure sensitive too. But I suspect it will
work in the case of a keyboard. Any suggestions how the z-axis can be
implemented here?

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@h-pi.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 29 Ocak 2007 Pazartesi 4:12
Subject: [tuning] Elegy in 15ET

> New piece in 15ET written today and posted as a MIDI file here:
>
> http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
>
> "Elegy in 15ET", my second composition using TBX1 with a standard MIDI
keyboard (fatar
> 49) and notation software (Overture for Mac OSX). I started out using a
guitar sound for
> this but ended up preferring string ensemble. To see how standard notation
can be used
> with the TBX1, see:
>
> http://www.h-pi.com/TBX1setups.html
>
> Yours,
> Aaron Andrew Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
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> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

🔗Aaron Andrew Hunt <aahunt@h-pi.com>

Thanks everyone for listening to my music.

Ozan: yes, it is absolutely possible to create a programmable touch screen microtonal
interface; in fact the practical interface part has already been developed by those such as
you cite here and others. I have already discussed with my chief engineer the possibility
for a future H-Pi product of this kind, and he is already able to develop it; the main
problem is that such a device will be outrageously - I'm afraid prohibitively - expensive.

There are also tactile feedback problems with such a device. It can go two ways - a flat
screen with graphic elements only or a screen with actual stuff on top of it. For example,
the Spanish interactive table provides mobile user positionable control elements on the
screen. A keyboard-like interface of this type would require fixed position actuators. Then
it is basically like assembling hardware. Implementation of such hardware becomes a big
problem. Finally we begin to ask, why do you have a touch screen at all, if we are
positioning fixed hardware elements?

Doubtless in the future this technology will become cheaper to develop and these
problems can be ironed out... at least it will be tried by some brave soul! But, on the whole
H-Pi is focusing on affordable products, so the touch screen interface is on the shelf. I
think JazzMutant has the closest thing right now.

Yours,
Aaron Hunt
H-Pi Instruments

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Andrew, that was an exotic piece. But I wonder, is it possible to
> manufacture an LCD screen incorporating a modifiable keyboard interface? I
> am picturing a panel with a video display, multi-touch functionality, and
> individual key velocity control.
>
> Here is an example, but not quite what I mean:
> http://www.jazzmutant.com/lemur_overview.php
>
> This seems to be a great canditate:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcKqyn-gUbY&NR
>
> He says at one point it is pressure sensitive too. But I suspect it will
> work in the case of a keyboard. Any suggestions how the z-axis can be
> implemented here?
>
> Oz.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aaron Andrew Hunt" <aahunt@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 29 Ocak 2007 Pazartesi 4:12
> Subject: [tuning] Elegy in 15ET
>
>
> > New piece in 15ET written today and posted as a MIDI file here:
> >
> > http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
> >
> > "Elegy in 15ET", my second composition using TBX1 with a standard MIDI
> keyboard (fatar
> > 49) and notation software (Overture for Mac OSX). I started out using a
> guitar sound for
> > this but ended up preferring string ensemble. To see how standard notation
> can be used
> > with the TBX1, see:
> >
> > http://www.h-pi.com/TBX1setups.html
> >
> > Yours,
> > Aaron Andrew Hunt
> > H-Pi Instruments
> >
> >
> >
> > You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> > of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> > tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> > tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> > tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> > tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> > tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> > tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@IO.COM>

Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Wier" <dawiertx@...> wrote:
> >> I was impressed with that and the two-part invention! Though I did > prefer >> the latter a bit more (since 5/10/15-TET fifths are indeed painful).
> > 15-et seems like it almost, but not quite, works. May be a candidate > for partials adjusment.

In the original version of my Mizarian Porcupine Overture, which used sound fonts, I altered the samples by using the filters in Cool Edit to isolate the individual partials and changed the sample rate to fit the 15-ET scale. The one that sounds like a synthesized brass sound is actually a sample built from sine waves and put through a filter. The others are combinations of acoustic and synthesized sounds altered in various ways.

ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/usr/hmiller/music/porcupine-overture.mp3

You can hear the effect of this partial detuning on many of the sounds, but it's really quite acceptable; it does make the samples a little bit more "alien", but that's an effect you get with 15-ET in any case. :-)

On the other hand the raw effect of fifths in 15-ET with harmonic timbres is an interesting sound as well, which you can hear in my more recent version.

http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/porcupine-absynth.mp3

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Cameron Bobro <misterbobro@yahoo.com>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>

SNIP

> Ozan: yes, it is absolutely possible to create a programmable touch screen
microtonal
> interface; in fact the practical interface part has already been developed
by those such as
> you cite here and others. I have already discussed with my chief engineer
the possibility
> for a future H-Pi product of this kind, and he is already able to develop
it; the main
> problem is that such a device will be outrageously - I'm afraid
prohibitively - expensive.
>

Even if it is monochromatic and low resolotion?

> There are also tactile feedback problems with such a device. It can go two
ways - a flat
> screen with graphic elements only or a screen with actual stuff on top of
it. For example,
> the Spanish interactive table provides mobile user positionable control
elements on the
> screen.

Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8YYYQpk3XQ

A keyboard-like interface of this type would require fixed position
actuators. Then
> it is basically like assembling hardware. Implementation of such hardware
becomes a big
> problem. Finally we begin to ask, why do you have a touch screen at all,
if we are
> positioning fixed hardware elements?
>

For building diverse keyboard interfaces for distinct tunings of course. A
graphical multitouch interface has the advantage of scalability and
versatality. Why, I am thinking of foldable keyboard myself.

> Doubtless in the future this technology will become cheaper to develop and
these
> problems can be ironed out... at least it will be tried by some brave
soul! But, on the whole
> H-Pi is focusing on affordable products, so the touch screen interface is
on the shelf. I
> think JazzMutant has the closest thing right now.
>

Let us calculate the market price for such a project, in case someone like
me thinks of buying it!

But still, I would like to first discuss how velocity sensitivity can be
implemented on such a flat panel...

> Yours,
> Aaron Hunt
> H-Pi Instruments
>

Oz.

🔗Danny Wier <dawiertx@sbcglobal.net>

From: "Gene Ward Smith"
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:53 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Elegy in 15ET

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Wier" <dawiertx@...> wrote:
>
>> Can you produce a closed temperament with 15 pitches?
>
> Four meantone fifths of 5^(1/4) plus an 8/5 closes a complete circle of
> five fifths, and that might be a starting point; the tunging of course
> could be adjusted. Another is taking four fifths of size (56/11)^(1/4),
> which are 704.377 cents, plus an 11/7 interval to close the circle.

Since I've messed around in my head with 5-TET a lot lately, I'll take those into consideration.

I was thinking some temperament that *wasn't* three bike chains of 5, so a non-fifth generator would be necessary. I thought at first a minor-third generator. 320 cents would of course give you exactly 15-TET with a 720-cent fifth, so I tried 319, which gives you a mix of 714-cent fifths and some very wolfy 729-cent fifths.

Of course, in ETs where the fifths are way off pure, you just use voicings that leave out the fifth and fourth as much as possible, and let the mind add the fifth. A chord of 0-320-1200 isn't half bad.

Bear in mind I'm much more familiar with fifth-based temperaments like 12, 17, 19, 22, 31 and the like.

~D.

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>

The issue is to have a keyboard redrawn on a panel according to whim. These
designs not only defy such versatility, but they also do not have z-axis
sensitivity.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 30 Ocak 2007 Salï¿½ 10:29
Subject: [tuning] Re: Elegy in 15ET

> > JazzMutant has the closest thing right now.
>
> Lemur is too slow, or was as of NAMM 2005, for a keyboard
> instrument in the classical sense.
>
> I think this technique is promising...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Keyboard
>
> ...(OLED keytops). I also like...
>
> http://www.ergodex.com
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Wier" <dawiertx@...> wrote:

> I was thinking some temperament that *wasn't* three bike chains of
5, so a
> non-fifth generator would be necessary.

Probably the most obvious thing to do here is porcupine, tempering
out 250/243. A 15-note MOS tuned in 22-et is one possibility for
tuning it, so that the generator is 3deg22. An interesting
possibility is 81edo, with 11deg81 as generator. 81edo does an
excellent porcupine with its sharp fifth and an excellent meantone
with its flat fifth, and a person could have fun playing with the
modulation between them.

The porcupine generator is a flat minor whole tone, BTW.

> I thought at first a minor-third
> generator.

You get a nice MOS for kleismic temperament, tempering out
15625/15552. This is best with a third closer to 317 cents than 319.
You could use 34 or 54 edo for the tuning if you wanted to embed it
in an equal temperament.

> Bear in mind I'm much more familiar with fifth-based temperaments
like 12,
> 17, 19, 22, 31 and the like.

I wouldn't call 22 fifth-based and not really 19 or 31 either since
they wear other hats than meantone.

🔗Danny Wier <dawiertx@sbcglobal.net>

From: "Gene Ward Smith"
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 7:29 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Elegy in 15ET

> Probably the most obvious thing to do here is porcupine, tempering
> out 250/243. A 15-note MOS tuned in 22-et is one possibility for
> tuning it, so that the generator is 3deg22. An interesting
> possibility is 81edo, with 11deg81 as generator. 81edo does an
> excellent porcupine with its sharp fifth and an excellent meantone
> with its flat fifth, and a person could have fun playing with the
> modulation between them.
>
> The porcupine generator is a flat minor whole tone, BTW.

I forgot all about porcupine (and I read your earlier post, Herman).

And 81-TET is also a Fibonnaci temperament approaching golden meanton, the next in the series 5, 7, 12, 19, 31, 50, 81. I need to experiment with that in both uses.

> You get a nice MOS for kleismic temperament, tempering out
> 15625/15552. This is best with a third closer to 317 cents than 319.
> You could use 34 or 54 edo for the tuning if you wanted to embed it
> in an equal temperament.

If I have Scala draw a horogram for a 317.0 cent generator, and I check the "Only maximally even" box, I get 3, 4, 15, 19, 34 and 53. Did you mean 53-edo instead of 54?

> I wouldn't call 22 fifth-based and not really 19 or 31 either since
> they wear other hats than meantone.

I could've used a better term than "fifth-based" -- maybe "fifth-friendly". As in "53-TET is more fifth-friendly than 11-TET".

22 might be borderline fifth-based, since 709 cents is close to the threshhold of what is an acceptable P5, but I'm very tolerant when it comes to tuning precision.

~D.

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Wier" <dawiertx@...> wrote:

> If I have Scala draw a horogram for a 317.0 cent generator, and I
check the
> "Only maximally even" box, I get 3, 4, 15, 19, 34 and 53. Did you
mean
> 53-edo instead of 54?

Sorry, my eyesight is getting worse. New glasses on order.

> 22 might be borderline fifth-based, since 709 cents is close to the
> threshhold of what is an acceptable P5, but I'm very tolerant when it
comes
> to tuning precision.

Well, I was touting 81 as a porcupine system but actually the fifth
there is the 27-et fifth which is even worse. However, even weighting
the fifth more this seems pretty optimal by the numbers.

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

> The issue is to have a keyboard redrawn on a panel according to
> whim. These designs not only defy such versatility,

The Optimus won't let you reconfigure digitals, but it will
let you relabel them, or help you learn to play by illuminating
the notes to play in real time, etc. I don't know what your
particular need to reconfigure digitals is, but I tend to think
there must be some ideal layout over which one can redraw
the *pitches* at a whim.

The Ergodex solution lets you reconfigure digitals, but not
instantly -- you have to manually move them around.

-Carl

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>

What about z-axis sensitivity then? Say what thou willest, we are in need of
yon prestidigitation apparatus.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 31 Ocak 2007 ï¿½arï¿½amba 8:39
Subject: [tuning] Re: Elegy in 15ET

> > The issue is to have a keyboard redrawn on a panel according to
> > whim. These designs not only defy such versatility,
>
> The Optimus won't let you reconfigure digitals, but it will
> let you relabel them, or help you learn to play by illuminating
> the notes to play in real time, etc. I don't know what your
> particular need to reconfigure digitals is, but I tend to think
> there must be some ideal layout over which one can redraw
> the *pitches* at a whim.
>
> The Ergodex solution lets you reconfigure digitals, but not
> instantly -- you have to manually move them around.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

> > > The issue is to have a keyboard redrawn on a panel according to
> > > whim. These designs not only defy such versatility,
> >
> > The Optimus won't let you reconfigure digitals, but it will
> > let you relabel them, or help you learn to play by illuminating
> > the notes to play in real time, etc. I don't know what your
> > particular need to reconfigure digitals is, but I tend to think
> > there must be some ideal layout over which one can redraw
> > the *pitches* at a whim.
> >
> > The Ergodex solution lets you reconfigure digitals, but not
> > instantly -- you have to manually move them around.

> What about z-axis sensitivity then? Say what thou willest, we
> are in need of yon prestidigitation apparatus.
>
> Oz.

Since both of the techniques I'm referencing here use keyswitches,
both of them could have z-axis sensitivity, and in fact, more
z-axis sensitivity than any touch-screen technique. But again,
I'll point out that the harpsichord, which sustained Western
music for several generations, has very limited z-axis
sensitivity.

-Carl

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>

SNIP

> > What about z-axis sensitivity then? Say what thou willest, we
> > are in need of yon prestidigitation apparatus.
> >
> > Oz.
>
> Since both of the techniques I'm referencing here use keyswitches,
> both of them could have z-axis sensitivity, and in fact, more
> z-axis sensitivity than any touch-screen technique. But again,
> I'll point out that the harpsichord, which sustained Western
> music for several generations, has very limited z-axis
> sensitivity.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

But z-axis sensitivity is much neglected in "post-modern" music! Any
electronic keyboard devoid of this feature invites crude application of
pitch.

I, for one, would like to have an 8-octave span keyboard for 79/80 MOS
159-tET. How should one go about it then?

Oz.

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>

If only the keys were back-lit as in Optimus.

And what is the price of their flagship keyboard by the way?

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 01 ï¿½ubat 2007 Perï¿½embe 1:10
Subject: [tuning] Re: Elegy in 15ET

> > I, for one, would like to have an 8-octave span keyboard for
> > 79/80 MOS 159-tET. How should one go about it then?
>
> 79 * 8 = 632. The only thing big enough are the Uath
> keyboards
>
> http://www.starrlabs.com
>
> They happen to offer more z-axis sensitivity than anything
> else out there.
>
> -Carl
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > If only the keys were back-lit as in Optimus.
>
> I know. I told him in 1998 to make sure the keycaps
> were easily removeable, and to make keycaps in different
> colors. He said he would work on the former request,
> but seemed doubtful on the second for some reason.
>
> > And what is the price of their flagship keyboard by the way?
> >
> > Oz.
>
> I think you have to get a quote -- they're build to order.

I was working for StarrLabs back around 2002 and the
big Uath then was around US$8000.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗threesixesinarow <CACCOLA@NET1PLUS.COM>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> The issue is to have a keyboard redrawn on a panel according to
whim. These
> designs not only defy such versatility, but they also do not have z-
axis
> sensitivity.
>
> Oz.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 30 Ocak 2007 Salý 10:29
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Elegy in 15ET
>
>
> > > JazzMutant has the closest thing right now.
> >
> > Lemur is too slow, or was as of NAMM 2005, for a keyboard
> > instrument in the classical sense.
> >
> > I think this technique is promising...
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Keyboard
> >
> > ...(OLED keytops). I also like...
> >
> > http://www.ergodex.com
> >
> > -Carl
> >
> >
> >
>
http://cs.nyu.edu/~jhan/ledtouch/index.html

Jacob pointed this out on a different group, you could use soft
thimbles so fingers flatten more uniformly, or else removable keys
like the old "Incredible Musical Keyboard" with them.

Clark

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>

SNIP

> In the original version of my Mizarian Porcupine Overture, which used
> sound fonts, I altered the samples by using the filters in Cool Edit to
> isolate the individual partials and changed the sample rate to fit the
> 15-ET scale. The one that sounds like a synthesized brass sound is
> actually a sample built from sine waves and put through a filter. The
> others are combinations of acoustic and synthesized sounds altered in
> various ways.
>
> ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/usr/hmiller/music/porcupine-overture.mp3
>
> You can hear the effect of this partial detuning on many of the sounds,
> but it's really quite acceptable; it does make the samples a little bit
> more "alien", but that's an effect you get with 15-ET in any case. :-)
>
> On the other hand the raw effect of fifths in 15-ET with harmonic
> timbres is an interesting sound as well, which you can hear in my more
> recent version.
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/porcupine-absynth.mp3
>
>
>

A most enjoyable piece, bravo Herman.

Oz.