RE: Numerical accuracy conceptions of past music theoris ts

Before I attempt a more complete reply, I'd like to respond to this:

>I believe that Mr. Woolhouse, in stating that equal temperament
>is rightly the long established basis of tuning, really went too far
>and overlooked the fact of experience that the deviations of equal
>temperament from the just ratios are so large that they really
>do have an appreciable effect on the sound of music performed in
>equal temperament.

Note that Wesley Woolhouse was a prominent advocate of _19_ tone equal
temperament.

Dave Hill wrote,

A spokesman for the new view is the musical mathematician
W. S. B. Woolhouse, who wrote in the 19th century: "It is very
misleading to suppose that the necessity of temperament applies
only to instruments which have fixed tones. Singers and performers
on perfect instruments must all temper their intervals, or they
could not keep in tune with each other, or even with themselves;
an on arriving at the same notes by different routes, would be
continually finding a want of agreement. [. . .]"

>I believe that Mr. Woolhouse, in stating that equal temperament
>is rightly the long established basis of tuning, really went too far
>and overlooked the fact of experience that the deviations of equal
>temperament from the just ratios are so large that they really
>do have an appreciable effect on the sound of music performed in
>equal temperament.

First of all, my knowledge of Woolhouse's theories suggests that he viewed
some form of meantone temperament to be ideal. According to Mandelbaum,
Woolhouse derived an optimal meantone tuning (I believe it was the
squared-error optimal tuning for the three 5-limit consonances, namely
7/26-comma meantone), and decided that 19-tone equal tempermant was a close
enough approximation, and one which gave to the musician the desirable
properties of a closed system which were giving 12-equal its rise to
prominence at the time. In fact, 31- or 50-tone equal temperaments would be
better approximations (though not as convenient from a practical point of
view), and neither of those tunings commits any errors larger than 6 cents
in any of the classic (5-limit) consonant intervals. 19-equal has major
thirds and perfect fifths that are over 7 cents off. 12-equal, of course,
has major thirds 14 cents off and minor thirds 16 cents off.

Second and more importantly, I think Dave Hill has missed the importance of
the last quoted statement (from Woolhouse) above. Many if not most
common-practice musical passages performed in just intonation would result
in contradictory tunings for the same written pitch. Whether or not Mr.
Woolhouse went "too far", Mr. Hill has failed to address Woolhouse's point
here. Furthermore, far from overlooking the errors from just intonation,
Woolhouse sought the best way to reduce them while preserving the musical
meaning of the notes in the Western tradition.

Kraig Grady wrote,

>It is interesting
>that those composers of notoriety who use different tunings, have use a JI
>system. Partch, Young, Harrison, and Riley.

A very JI- and USA-centric view of the universe. In this century alone, we
have counterexamples in Wychnegradsky, Haba, Carillo, Ives, Stockhausen,
Xenakis, Badings, Darreg, Blackwood, Maneri, Penderecki, Carlos, and
Reinhard.

I was attempting to keep to well known composers known as composers using
tuning extensively. Yes you added a few but some of these are almost unknown
outside of the acedemic circles, go to tower and see which one of these you
can find! And tend see if you can find more than one. Despite some good work
from the following, i do not consider these composers music well known.
Wychnegradsky, Haba, Carillo, Badings, Darreg, Blackwood, Maneri, Reinhard.
Penderecki is a good example though of a quartertone composer known for there
use. Some of the other bigwigs mentioned Stockhausen, Xenakis,have used
microtone but what electronic composers hasn't and the term is meaningless.
Carlos I overlooked too. Stockhausen though only instrumental use of
microtones I know of is sirius. his ripoff of the partch diamond minus the 11
used in the most uninventive way possible. O I forgot his other rip-off
Stimmumg which he wrote after a Lamonte young performance. Badings when I met
him expressed that his 31 tone works were for him a 31 tone notation for JI.
He played me extensive JI pieces for two violins in the range of harmonics
above 20 for those who dismiss such things. But I could include a host of
others even more well known as these, Polansky, Robert Rich, Scelsi, Niblock.
Where do you draw the line, i might as well include myself for that matter..
All this was in response to the idea of JI use being "naive",
"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
> Kraig Grady wrote,
>
> >It is interesting
> >that those composers of notoriety who use different tunings, have use a JI
> >system. Partch, Young, Harrison, and Riley.
>
> A very JI- and USA-centric view of the universe. In this century alone, we
> have counterexamples in Wychnegradsky, Haba, Carillo, Ives, Stockhausen,
> Xenakis, Badings, Darreg, Blackwood, Maneri, Penderecki, Carlos, and
> Reinhard.
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

Kraig Grady wrote,

>Yes you added a few but some of these are almost unknown
>outside of the acedemic circles, go to tower and see which one of these you
>can find!

The lack of Badings is a travesty. Blackwood and Maneri are there. Young is
not, and much Riley and Harrison are 12-equal.

>Some of the other bigwigs mentioned Stockhausen, Xenakis,have used
>microtone but what electronic composers hasn't and the term is
meaningless.

Xenakis' _Pleaides_ uses a set of metallophones with 19 unequal steps per
octave. Stockhausen was rare among electronic composers in that he used a
microtonal tuning as a deliberate (rather than incidental) shaping of the
electronic materials.

>All this was in response to the idea of JI use being "naive"

It's not naive at all if it's the tuning the composer intended!!!

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>
> Kraig Grady wrote,
>
> >Yes you added a few but some of these are almost unknown
> >outside of the acedemic circles, go to tower and see which one of these you
> >can find!
>
> The lack of Badings is a travesty.

THAT HIS WORKS ARE NOT WELL KNOWN IS. None of his microtonal works are
available as far as i know. I would love to get them. especially the violin
music i heard!
Joel Mandlebaum work is also a shame should be available as the little i heard
was of worth! His book remains one of the best!
Hank Badings had the best ear of any composer I have ever met. He was also one
of the few people who understood what i was doing, how and why i was
manipulating my material the way I do. He was probably more supportive of my
doings than any one I can think of. Economics forced me to leave sooner than i
would have liked. At that time recordings of his work consisted of one
electronic piece.
I don't know of any composers here who know who he is . These last two even
more so. This is not my doing for God's Sake

> Blackwood and Maneri are there.

> Really?, i never noticed!

> Young is
> not,

This is more I believe a matter of choice with the latter. Notice how
Stockhausen has once again imitated Young in handling his own stuff.
Stockhausen Studie I used a set intonation system is the only one i am aware
of. Yes, the Russian National Anthem in Hymnen uses microtonal inflections.

> and much Riley and Harrison are 12-equal. Less so than Ives, Stockhausen,
> Xenakis.

I've always thought that Xenakis Pleides is an imitation of Harrison but turned
up. Anyway the Pitch of these square plates seems to be more color-oriented
than anything! You forgot Ligeti who has used different Temperaments. I heard
one piece here where he threw in some ocarinas as his tribute to Partch. Gee,
thanks!

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com