the A-flat book 1 prelude's articulation

Re: the message below, by Tom Dent:

Apparently I have made a poor choice of words, in my remark at the quoted paragraph. I apologize; I didn't mean to imply that *Lindley* uses that strategy for the express purpose of such "cheating" the piece...but only that to play the chords that crisply seems *to me* like a convenient dodge of poor resonance (or uncomfortable intonation or whatever) in those chords.

In my own performances of that A-flat prelude, book 1, I play them with all sorts of articulations, differently per occasion and mood. But, it does seem odd to me to make them *too* short, especially if one is (whether consciously/deliberately or not) trying to get quickly off chords that weren't sounding very good anyway.... Bach could have written eighths and rests there, but he wrote quarters.

As for anyone misrepresenting anyone, Tom: I feel that your remarks here misrepresent *my* views at least as badly as you've accused me of misrepresenting Lindley's in my single four-line comment. I did *not* say that "Lindley's views constitute cheating," as you accuse me of here.

Nor am I terribly happy with your insinuations here that my E major does *not* sound relaxed/pastoral. I play that prelude regularly in my lectures about this, in a quite laid-back manner. And, have you listened closely to my recording of the E major three-part sinfonia (on harpsichord), where I approach that piece similarly with lyrical phrasing? I don't see or hear any contradiction between having a wide-ish E-G# but still having some of Bach's music in E major (like these two, and the two-part invention, and both P/F of book 2) be played in a mostly sustained manner.

Brad Lehman

(cc Lindley also)

=======

Lindley 'cheating'? - his real views on tuning for Bach
Posted by: "Tom Dent" stringph@gmail.com sphaerenklang
Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:22 pm (PST)
--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Brad Lehman <bpl@...> wrote:
>
> - The prelude's thematic chords are notated as both sustained and tied
> over; there's no possible cheating by playing crisp staccato to hide
> tuning flaws (as one tuning researcher suggests for articulation in
> playing the book 1 Ab prelude).

This is an attack on Mark Lindley's ideas of tuning for Bach, which
Brad has misrepresented. If Brad wants to say that Mark Lindley is
cheating, let him say so straight out and take responsibility for the
accusation, rather than insinuating.

Smears against specific but unnamed people are almost impossible to
refute - unless you are thoroughly familiar with the history of the
debate. But I happen to know Mark Lindley is the only person Brad
could possibly be referring to here.

I will try to explain what Lindley said about the Ab prelude in Book
I, and related questions, without distortions or inaccuracies, so far
as I remember it.

But first, let's get two things straight: you can't call it 'cheating'
to play certain chords staccato, if you like it that way. And you
can't call it 'cheating' to suggest that Bach's tuning probably
changed over the years between 1722 and 1744.

Like Brad, Mark Lindley believes that temperament is one element of a
convincing performance - which interacts with other elements in that
(for example) the sound of tempered chords will influence how a
performer plays them, in conjunction with other features of the music.
I experienced this at first hand, at a lecture-demonstration last year.

Lindley noted that, in his opinion, and independently of any choice of
tuning, the E major and Ab major preludes in 'Book 1' have contrasting
characters and types of articulation. The E major piece is pastoral,
relaxed, with many sustained and tied-over notes, and an essentially
legato line. Ab major is brisk and vigorous, with many isolated chords
punctuated by rests, or two-part passage-work in 16th- and 8th-notes,
which should probably be performed with mainly detached articulation.

Lindley believes that a tuning in which Ab-C is sharper than E-G#
(though not so sharp as 81/64!) would contribute positively to the
expression of these characters. For instance a relatively
rapidly-beating third Ab-c inside the first chord of the Ab Prelude
might encourage a performer to release this chord a little earlier
than its notated value - which Lindley believes would be musically
beneficial. Contrariwise, the E-G# third at the beginning of the E
Prelude would beat relatively slowly and encourage the performer to
hold the notes down as notated, creating a gentler and more legato
character. (Similar remarks apply to arpeggios in the C major, F#
major Preludes.)

And in general, he thinks that the different characters of these two
keys in his type of tuning suit the different characters of the
preludes - but not so much in Lehman's, where the sizes of the thirds
are the other way round.

Lindley does not under any circumstances accept that the chord of Ab
major, as he would have it in WTC book I, contains 'tuning flaws'. In
his opinion, a performance with his type of tuning and with detached
articulation would be musically optimal. To say that the detached
articulation is intended to 'hide' the tuning of the chord is a gross
misrepresentation. On the contrary, the articulation and the tuning,
experienced together, create the artistic impression.

You might as well say that Bach 'cheated' by 'hiding' the note C in
the middle of a chord!!

Other people may of course prefer different types of tuning, where
different chords have thirds that are as sharp (or sharper!) than
Lindley's proposed Ab-C; they may also prefer different playing
styles. This does not justify Brad, or anyone else, saying that
Lindley's views constitute 'cheating'.

As for the 'Book II' Ab prelude, Lindley had not explicitly discussed
it. I will add for myself that its compositional features are
consistent with the idea that Bach's tuning became closer to ET later
in life.

~~~T~~~

(cc to Lindley)

Hey Brad,

I'm wondering, based on your comments below, what exactly you mean
when you say that the key character will influence tempi,
articulation, phrasing, appogiature, etc....i.e. what exactly will E
major in your tuning make one do in your tuning? And if
characteristics of the piece trump tuning considerations,(e.g. WTC1 E
major prelude is 'pastoral') exactly how important *are* the tuning
characteristics, or, in other words, what will they contribute to
playing decisions precisely? Do they *really* contribute, all else
being equal? Sure we can agree they color a mood, but in your
experience, what characterisitc of E major in your tuning would
makeBach ant that particular piece in E major instead of a more
traditional pastoral F major for example?

It would be nice to get a precise statement of your claims of the
mapping of tuning to performance....thanks!

-A.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Brad Lehman <bpl@...> wrote:
>
> Re: the message below, by Tom Dent:
>
> Apparently I have made a poor choice of words, in my remark at the
> quoted paragraph. I apologize; I didn't mean to imply that *Lindley*
> uses that strategy for the express purpose of such "cheating" the
> piece...but only that to play the chords that crisply seems *to me*
like
> a convenient dodge of poor resonance (or uncomfortable intonation or
> whatever) in those chords.
>
> In my own performances of that A-flat prelude, book 1, I play them with
> all sorts of articulations, differently per occasion and mood. But, it
> does seem odd to me to make them *too* short, especially if one is
> (whether consciously/deliberately or not) trying to get quickly off
> chords that weren't sounding very good anyway.... Bach could have
> written eighths and rests there, but he wrote quarters.
>
> As for anyone misrepresenting anyone, Tom: I feel that your remarks
here
> misrepresent *my* views at least as badly as you've accused me of
> misrepresenting Lindley's in my single four-line comment. I did *not*
> say that "Lindley's views constitute cheating," as you accuse me of
here.
>
> Nor am I terribly happy with your insinuations here that my E major
does
> *not* sound relaxed/pastoral. I play that prelude regularly in my
> lectures about this, in a quite laid-back manner. And, have you
> listened closely to my recording of the E major three-part sinfonia (on
> harpsichord), where I approach that piece similarly with lyrical
> phrasing? I don't see or hear any contradiction between having a
> wide-ish E-G# but still having some of Bach's music in E major (like
> these two, and the two-part invention, and both P/F of book 2) be
played
> in a mostly sustained manner.
>
>
> Brad Lehman
>
> (cc Lindley also)
>
> =======
>
>
> Lindley 'cheating'? - his real views on tuning for Bach
> Posted by: "Tom Dent" stringph@... sphaerenklang
> Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:22 pm (PST)
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Brad Lehman <bpl@> wrote:
> >
> > - The prelude's thematic chords are notated as both sustained and
tied
> > over; there's no possible cheating by playing crisp staccato to hide
> > tuning flaws (as one tuning researcher suggests for articulation in
> > playing the book 1 Ab prelude).
>
> This is an attack on Mark Lindley's ideas of tuning for Bach, which
> Brad has misrepresented. If Brad wants to say that Mark Lindley is
> cheating, let him say so straight out and take responsibility for the
> accusation, rather than insinuating.
>
> Smears against specific but unnamed people are almost impossible to
> refute - unless you are thoroughly familiar with the history of the
> debate. But I happen to know Mark Lindley is the only person Brad
> could possibly be referring to here.
>
> I will try to explain what Lindley said about the Ab prelude in Book
> I, and related questions, without distortions or inaccuracies, so far
> as I remember it.
>
> But first, let's get two things straight: you can't call it 'cheating'
> to play certain chords staccato, if you like it that way. And you
> can't call it 'cheating' to suggest that Bach's tuning probably
> changed over the years between 1722 and 1744.
>
> Like Brad, Mark Lindley believes that temperament is one element of a
> convincing performance - which interacts with other elements in that
> (for example) the sound of tempered chords will influence how a
> performer plays them, in conjunction with other features of the music.
> I experienced this at first hand, at a lecture-demonstration last year.
>
> Lindley noted that, in his opinion, and independently of any choice of
> tuning, the E major and Ab major preludes in 'Book 1' have contrasting
> characters and types of articulation. The E major piece is pastoral,
> relaxed, with many sustained and tied-over notes, and an essentially
> legato line. Ab major is brisk and vigorous, with many isolated chords
> punctuated by rests, or two-part passage-work in 16th- and 8th-notes,
> which should probably be performed with mainly detached articulation.
>
> Lindley believes that a tuning in which Ab-C is sharper than E-G#
> (though not so sharp as 81/64!) would contribute positively to the
> expression of these characters. For instance a relatively
> rapidly-beating third Ab-c inside the first chord of the Ab Prelude
> might encourage a performer to release this chord a little earlier
> than its notated value - which Lindley believes would be musically
> beneficial. Contrariwise, the E-G# third at the beginning of the E
> Prelude would beat relatively slowly and encourage the performer to
> hold the notes down as notated, creating a gentler and more legato
> character. (Similar remarks apply to arpeggios in the C major, F#
> major Preludes.)
>
> And in general, he thinks that the different characters of these two
> keys in his type of tuning suit the different characters of the
> preludes - but not so much in Lehman's, where the sizes of the thirds
> are the other way round.
>
> Lindley does not under any circumstances accept that the chord of Ab
> major, as he would have it in WTC book I, contains 'tuning flaws'. In
> his opinion, a performance with his type of tuning and with detached
> articulation would be musically optimal. To say that the detached
> articulation is intended to 'hide' the tuning of the chord is a gross
> misrepresentation. On the contrary, the articulation and the tuning,
> experienced together, create the artistic impression.
>
> You might as well say that Bach 'cheated' by 'hiding' the note C in
> the middle of a chord!!
>
> Other people may of course prefer different types of tuning, where
> different chords have thirds that are as sharp (or sharper!) than
> Lindley's proposed Ab-C; they may also prefer different playing
> styles. This does not justify Brad, or anyone else, saying that
> Lindley's views constitute 'cheating'.
>
> As for the 'Book II' Ab prelude, Lindley had not explicitly discussed
> it. I will add for myself that its compositional features are
> consistent with the idea that Bach's tuning became closer to ET later
> in life.
>
> ~~~T~~~
>
> (cc to Lindley)
>