To Herman Miller : FW: [tuning] Another Bach tuning comparison

Dear Herman

If possible for you and have time , can you test and see the result of 128-ado well temperament which is in :

http://240edo.googlepages.com/bachtemp.doc

Thanks a lot

Shaahin Mohajeri

Tombak Player & Researcher , Microtonal Composer

My web site?? ???? ????? ?????? <http://240edo.googlepages.com/>

My farsi page in Harmonytalk ???? ??????? ?? ??????? ??? <http://www.harmonytalk.com/mohajeri>

Shaahin Mohajeri in Wikipedia ????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaahin_mohajeri>

________________________________

From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mohajeri Shahin
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 7:57 AM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [tuning] Another Bach tuning comparison

Hi herman
Most equal superparticular 12-tone scale is based on 45-ADO and you can see this scale in VISUAL TEMPERAMENT ANALYZER:
http://240edo.googlepages.com/Bach-45-ADO.xls <http://240edo.googlepages.com/Bach-45-ADO.xls>

Shaahin Mohajeri

Tombak Player & Researcher , Microtonal Composer

My web site?? ???? ????? ?????? <http://240edo.googlepages.com/>

My farsi page in Harmonytalk ???? ??????? ?? ??????? ??? <http://www.harmonytalk.com/mohajeri>

Shaahin Mohajeri in Wikipedia ????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaahin_mohajeri>

________________________________

From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman Miller
Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 12:12 AM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tuning] Another Bach tuning comparison

And now for the results.

> http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2a.mp3 <http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2a.mp3>

2a is perhaps ET (Carl Lumma)
Both a and b are semi-decent, not obnoxious, and I've heard a lot worse;
a is better than b. (Brad Lehman)
2a is fine (Ozan Yarman)

! sorge3.scl
!
Georg Andreas Sorge, 1758

12
!
96.09000
196.09000
298.04500
394.13500
4/3
596.09000
698.04500
798.04500
894.13500
998.04500
1096.09000
2/1

I did some tests of my own with Winamp in shuffle mode before putting
these samples up, and I consistently misidentified this one as ET. I
wondered if anyone else would have the same reaction.

> http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2b.mp3 <http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2b.mp3>

2b and 2d some sort of well temperaments. 2b is maybe my favorite. But
the differences between b/d are basically too subtle for me
to report on without ABX. (Carl Lumma)
2b is a little unbalanced (C-Eb is a little awry) (Ozan Yarman)
I'll cast my vote for 2b. (Gene Ward Smith)

! werck3.scl
!
Andreas Werckmeister's temperament III (the most famous one, 1681)
12
!
256/243
192.18000
32/27
390.22500
4/3
1024/729
696.09000
128/81
888.26999
16/9
1092.18000
2/1

And here it is. Interesting how mixed the reactions were; I guess this
isn't one of Werckmeister's better keys.

> http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2c.mp3 <http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2c.mp3>

2c sounds sour (Cameron Bobro)
2c sounds like meantone. 2c sounds wrong for Bach. (Carl Lumma)
'c', I agree with Carl, was probably some kind of meantone, and didn't
work for Bach (Aaron Krister Johnson)
Example c is from another planet. (Brad Lehman)
2c is meantonish and completely improper in the case of this particular
fugue (Ozan Yarman)

! duodene.scl
!
Ellis's Duodene : genus [33355]

12
!
16/15
9/8
6/5
5/4
4/3
45/32
3/2
8/5
5/3
9/5
15/8
2

What surprised me when I tried this is that I was expecting something
totally horrible, but it actually ended up better than I was expecting!
Obviously something Bach would never have used, but interesting in a way.

> http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2d.mp3 <http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2d.mp3>

2d [sounds] sweet (Cameron Bobro)
2b and 2d some sort of well temperaments (Carl Lumma)
I'll take a stab and say that 'd' was WerckIII (Aaron Krister Johnson)
Example d is obviously the Werckmeister (Brad Lehman)
I agree that Werckmeister III is the fourth one (Ozan Yarman)
2d sounds very nice (Ozan Yarman)

! young.scl
!
Thomas Young well temperament (1807), also Luigi Malerbi nr.2 (1794)
12
!
256/243
196.09000
32/27
392.18000
4/3
1024/729
698.04500
128/81
894.13500
16/9
1090.22500
2/1

I was surprised at first how easy it was to confuse Young with
Werckmeister, since the two are quite different. But looking at the
Scala files, you can see that they actually share quite a few notes.

And for the bonus examples:

> http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2e.mp3 <http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2e.mp3>
2e seems to exhibit severe problems in simple keys (Ozan Yarman)
Much as I hate to say it, I don't think 2e is the worst choice. (Gene
Ward Smith)

(This is equal temperament.)

> http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2f.mp3 <http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2f.mp3>
2f did not appeal to me very much as it sounds edgy (Ozan Yarman)

! kirnberger3.scl
!
Kirnberger 3: 1/4 synt. comma (1744)
12
!
135/128
193.15686
32/27
5/4
4/3
45/32
696.57843
405/256
889.73529
16/9
15/8
2/1

> http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2g.mp3 <http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2g.mp3>
2g is psychedelic! but quite improper for Bach in my opinion. (Ozan Yarman)

! super_12.scl
!
Most equal superparticular 12-tone scale

12
!
16/15
17/15
6/5
19/15
4/3
64/45
68/45
8/5
76/45
16/9
17/9
2/1

Mohajeri Shahin wrote:
> Dear Herman
> > If possible for you and have time , can you test and see the result of 128-ado well temperament which is in :
> > http://240edo.googlepages.com/bachtemp.doc

If you have a Scala file for it I can just plug it in and try it.

Hi herman

you can have scala file here:
http://240edo.googlepages.com/128well.scl <http://240edo.googlepages.com/128well.scl>

but did you see the graphic result of temperaments in:
http://240edo.googlepages.com/bachtemp.doc <http://240edo.googlepages.com/bachtemp.doc>

some temperaments have a good graphical symmetry like young.scl (better) and werck3.scl .
in 128-ADO well-temperament , we have typical intervallic structure (based on cent deviation from 12-edo)in C# and D ( mostly below the zero line) and Eb and E ( mostly above thee zero line). in "A" although the fifth is below zero but intervals are mostly greater than degrees of 12-EDO.
i think it must sounds better than Most equal superparticular 12-tone scale in 45-ADO. what do you hear?

what are your views about sounding of temperament and these evidences ?

Shaahin Mohajeri

Tombak Player & Researcher , Microtonal Composer

My web site?? ???? ????? ?????? <http://240edo.googlepages.com/>

My farsi page in Harmonytalk ???? ??????? ?? ??????? ??? <http://www.harmonytalk.com/mohajeri>

Shaahin Mohajeri in Wikipedia ????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaahin_mohajeri>

________________________________

From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman Miller
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 1:58 AM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: To Herman Miller : FW: [tuning] Another Bach tuning comparison

Mohajeri Shahin wrote:
> Dear Herman
>
> If possible for you and have time , can you test and see the result of 128-ado well temperament which is in :
>
> http://240edo.googlepages.com/bachtemp.doc <http://240edo.googlepages.com/bachtemp.doc>

If you have a Scala file for it I can just plug it in and try it.

Mohajeri Shahin wrote:
> Hi herman
> > you can have scala file here:
> http://240edo.googlepages.com/128well.scl <http://240edo.googlepages.com/128well.scl> That came out reasonably well.
http://home.comcast.net/~teamouse/fugue2-128well.mp3

> but did you see the graphic result of temperaments in:
> http://240edo.googlepages.com/bachtemp.doc <http://240edo.googlepages.com/bachtemp.doc> I'm not sure what to make of these charts. They would be easier to read if you just included the fifths, major thirds, and minor thirds.

> some temperaments have a good graphical symmetry like young.scl (better) and werck3.scl .
> in 128-ADO well-temperament , we have typical intervallic structure (based on cent deviation from 12-edo)in C# and D ( mostly below the zero line) and Eb and E ( mostly above thee zero line). in "A" although the fifth is below zero but intervals are mostly greater than degrees of 12-EDO.
> i think it must sounds better than Most equal superparticular 12-tone scale in 45-ADO. what do you hear?
> > what are your views about sounding of temperament and these evidences ?

I don't know if there's any relevance to large prime numbers like 181/128; it just happens to be near 600 cents. The "most equal superparticular" scale has its uses as a 19-limit JI scale, but it's not a well temperament, and I don't think it makes sense as a tuning for Bach.