Acid test / overkill: bwv537 (Cm) in 10 different temperaments

I have prepared recordings of Bach's "Fantasia and Fugue in C minor"
(bwv537) in 10 different temperaments - they are at
http://www.pheddles.com/bach/

The temperaments used are Werckmeister I-IV, Equal Temperament, and 5
other temperaments with which you're all probably familiar. I haven't
worried about historical appropriateness, since I consider it
irrelevant here.

All recordings are identical except for tuning - I used the same MIDI
file, same synthesiser and same instrument, with all settings
identical except for tuning. I even used exactly the same MP3 compression.

The first acid test is this: correctly identify ET and WIII. The
second is to correctly identify all 10 temperaments.

I freely admit that I fail this test. I might possibly be able to
identify ET if I tried, but that's the extent of it. This isn't really
an issue, since I doubt it's humanly possible. By the way, this test
is for human ears alone - I doubt any of you would use it anyway, but
use of spectral analysis would be considered cheating.

My usual preferred tuning (adaptive JI) is omitted, since it isn't a
sensible tuning for an organ.

I very much look forward to your responses. I'll be impressed if
anyone passes the first test, and astounded if anyone passes the
second. After a while I might make the second test easier by listing
the other 5 temperaments out of order, but for now this is the challenge.

Peace,
Patrick

p_heddles wrote:
> I have prepared recordings of Bach's "Fantasia and Fugue in C minor"
> (bwv537) in 10 different temperaments - they are at
> http://www.pheddles.com/bach/
> > The temperaments used are Werckmeister I-IV, Equal Temperament, and 5
> other temperaments with which you're all probably familiar. I haven't
> worried about historical appropriateness, since I consider it
> irrelevant here.
> > All recordings are identical except for tuning - I used the same MIDI
> file, same synthesiser and same instrument, with all settings
> identical except for tuning. I even used exactly the same MP3 compression.

Sounds like a "note off" got missed somewhere around 1:39.... Bach was pretty far ahead of his time, but not that far!

> The first acid test is this: correctly identify ET and WIII. The
> second is to correctly identify all 10 temperaments.

I almost hesitate to guess which is ET; I was positive that Young was ET the last time I tried. But.... I'll guess no. 6.

As far is which one is WIII: I doubt I'd be able to tell it apart from many of the other well-temperaments, especially in C minor. But as long as I'm guessing, I'll say no. 7; it sounds well-temperament-ish and appropriate.

No. 3 definitely sounds meantone-ish. I'd say at least 1/4-comma, maybe even 2/7-comma. No. 9 may be another version of meantone, but with a jarring G# in place of Ab.

No clue what no. 4 and no. 10 are. Not something I'd use for Bach, at any rate.

1, 2, 5, and 8 also sound like sorts of well temperament or something close to ET.

I essentially agree with Herman in many views.

And then, the meantone version sounds pretty sweet but there's a lot of C#s in places where I'm sure Db was meant, which is a pitty.

Well, have to go to school now, more on this from me later. - Good job indeed, man, just go on. Looking forward to something new along these lines.

Petr

> I almost hesitate to guess which is ET; I was positive that Young
was ET the last time I tried. But.... I'll guess no. 6.
>
> As far is which one is WIII: I doubt I'd be able to tell it apart
from many of the other well-temperaments, especially in C minor. But
as long as I'm guessing, I'll say no. 7; it sounds
>well-temperament-ish and
> appropriate.
>
> No. 3 definitely sounds meantone-ish. I'd say at least 1/4-comma, maybe
> even 2/7-comma. No. 9 may be another version of meantone, but with a
> jarring G# in place of Ab.
>
> No clue what no. 4 and no. 10 are. Not something I'd use for Bach, at
> any rate.
>
> 1, 2, 5, and 8 also sound like sorts of well temperament or something
> close to ET.

I've written your guesses down in the file with the correct answers. I
won't tell you how you went yet, but I will say your answers are truly
fascinating and quite impressive.

Patrick

Well, I know from testing myself for years that 10 examples is way
too much, but who cares, it's fun!

I'm not familiar enough with so many different historical tunings,
don't know which is which, but here's my impressions:

numbers 1, 8 and 9 sound meaningless.

number 10 sounds "science fiction", and I kind of like it! I also
like number 4 which is a touch sci-fi sounding, too. I agree with
Hermann that they're both a little strange.

number 3 would be the most fun on a date, but you wouldn't take her
home to mother. Number 2 seems to be her more mild-mannered cousin.

5,6, and 7 sound pretty run-of-the-mill.

That's as much as I can say, without a few days to drop in on it for
a couple of minutes each day, in which case at least the apple and
the stinker would surely make themselves clear.

But I must say that none of these sound like my imaginary ideal of a
tuning for this piece, which would be as wild as 3, as cohesive as 6
and as distraught as 4. :-D

-Cameron Bobro

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "p_heddles" <p_heddles@...> wrote:
>
> I have prepared recordings of Bach's "Fantasia and Fugue in C
minor"
> (bwv537) in 10 different temperaments - they are at
> http://www.pheddles.com/bach/
>
> The temperaments used are Werckmeister I-IV, Equal Temperament,
and 5
> other temperaments with which you're all probably familiar. I
haven't
> worried about historical appropriateness, since I consider it
> irrelevant here.
>
> All recordings are identical except for tuning - I used the same
MIDI
> file, same synthesiser and same instrument, with all settings
> identical except for tuning. I even used exactly the same MP3
compression.
>
> The first acid test is this: correctly identify ET and WIII. The
> second is to correctly identify all 10 temperaments.
>
> I freely admit that I fail this test. I might possibly be able to
> identify ET if I tried, but that's the extent of it. This isn't
really
> an issue, since I doubt it's humanly possible. By the way, this
test
> is for human ears alone - I doubt any of you would use it anyway,
but
> use of spectral analysis would be considered cheating.
>
> My usual preferred tuning (adaptive JI) is omitted, since it isn't
a
> sensible tuning for an organ.
>
> I very much look forward to your responses. I'll be impressed if
> anyone passes the first test, and astounded if anyone passes the
> second. After a while I might make the second test easier by
listing
> the other 5 temperaments out of order, but for now this is the
challenge.
>
> Peace,
> Patrick
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro" <misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> Well, I know from testing myself for years that 10 examples is way
> too much, but who cares, it's fun!
>
> I'm not familiar enough with so many different historical tunings,
> don't know which is which, but here's my impressions:
>
> numbers 1, 8 and 9 sound meaningless.
>
> number 10 sounds "science fiction", and I kind of like it! I also
> like number 4 which is a touch sci-fi sounding, too. I agree with
> Hermann that they're both a little strange.
>
> number 3 would be the most fun on a date, but you wouldn't take her
> home to mother. Number 2 seems to be her more mild-mannered cousin.
>
> 5,6, and 7 sound pretty run-of-the-mill.
>
> That's as much as I can say, without a few days to drop in on it for
> a couple of minutes each day, in which case at least the apple and
> the stinker would surely make themselves clear.
>
> But I must say that none of these sound like my imaginary ideal of a
> tuning for this piece, which would be as wild as 3, as cohesive as 6
> and as distraught as 4. :-D
>
> -Cameron Bobro

Thanks, Cameron. That's fascinating, and I really like your way of
describing the tunings. You're fairly accurate as far as I'm concerned
- in particular, I will say that 3 is probably the strangest tuning in
this test.

-Patrick Heddles

Werckmeister 1-IV
Equal Temperament

Von Wiesse's 1/2 Comma
Young's 1/6 Comma
Valotti & Young's temperament
Verheihen's 1/5 Comma
Zarlino's 2/7 Comma

Hope this helps. I'll post the ordered list soonish, sooner if someone
requests it before then. :-)

-Patrick Heddles

Ok. Here goes:

1. Young
2. Equal
3. Werckmeister I
4. ? (Something to do with WerckII, I presume, whatever that is)
5. Werckmeister IV
6. Valotti
7. Wiesse
8. Werckmeister III
9. Verheijen
10. Zarlino_? (something is terribly out of tune with this one)

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "p_heddles" <p_heddles@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 19 Ocak 2007 Cuma 1:29
Subject: [tuning] Unordered list of all tunings in the acid test

> Werckmeister 1-IV
> Equal Temperament
>
> Von Wiesse's 1/2 Comma
> Young's 1/6 Comma
> Valotti & Young's temperament
> Verheihen's 1/5 Comma
> Zarlino's 2/7 Comma
>
> Hope this helps. I'll post the ordered list soonish, sooner if someone
> requests it before then. :-)
>
> -Patrick Heddles
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "p_heddles" <p_heddles@...> wrote:
>
> Werckmeister 1-IV
> Equal Temperament
>
> Von Wiesse's 1/2 Comma
> Young's 1/6 Comma
> Valotti & Young's temperament
> Verheihen's 1/5 Comma
> Zarlino's 2/7 Comma
>
> Hope this helps. I'll post the ordered list soonish, sooner if someone
> requests it before then. :-)
>
> -Patrick Heddles
>

What definitions of 'Werckmeister 1-IV' did you use?
Different modern sources have different numberings (and mistakes!)

BTW I can't offer differing opinions on the files because something
goes horribly wrong with the coding between 1'30 and 2'00 which makes
every sample sound cacophonous. Somehow like two pieces being played
at the same time.

Still, I did think that the sample no.3 sounded a bit like meantone,
thus possibly 2/7 comma.

~~~T~~~

Hi Patrick,

I finally worked my way back to this! I'm hearing a stuck note
around 1:45. So I'll base my comments on the first minute or
so.

> I have prepared recordings of Bach's "Fantasia and Fugue in
> C minor" (bwv537) in 10 different temperaments - they are at
> http://www.pheddles.com/bach/
>
> The temperaments used are Werckmeister I-IV, Equal Temperament,
> and 5 other temperaments with which you're all probably familiar.
//
> The first acid test is this: correctly identify ET and WIII.
> The second is to correctly identify all 10 temperaments.

Well, I'm between 8, 6, and 2 for ET and my ears are ringing
with high-frequency partials, so I'll stop.

> By the way, this test
> is for human ears alone - I doubt any of you would use it anyway,
> but use of spectral analysis would be considered cheating.

I'm not aware of a ready way to do spectral analysis that
would help. Human ears are still among the most accurate
instruments around.

-Carl