proposal for a championship listening test

Hey,

I'd love to suggest that we have a combo
listening-test-and-vote-for-your-favorite-temperament based on the
following criteria:

THE PIECE:

WTC-I, Ab major
(all here would agree that a key approaching the farther side
of the circle but perhaps not all the way would be best, no?)

THE INSTRUMENT:

something neutral and unobjectionable, perhaps a single
moog-like sawtooth wave with a decay on the filter to mimic a
harpsichord. More accurate than a sample, and more 'lab-coat'
technical.....also a sawtooth would have plenty of harmonics!

THE TUNINGS:

(historical):
ET
WerckIII
NeidhardtI
Lehman-Bach (upside-down x-comma squiggles)
Francis-Bach (equal-beating squiggles)
Young (we need another tuning where Ab-C is Pythag.)

(neo-WTs):
AKJ-GWS-RWT.scl
Secor-1_5wt.scl
lumma_moh-ha-ha.scl (although I couldn't find it in the archives)
any others deemed suitable for Bach?

I'd be curious if Johnny could spot WerckIII, Brad Lehman could spot
his squiggle tuning, Carl could spot moh-ha-ha, etc.

I'd also be curious if there would be a consensus about what sounds
right for Bach!

If no-one wants to do this project within a month, I'll do it!

-Aaron.

On 1/17/07, Aaron Krister Johnson <aaron@dividebypi.com> wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> I'd love to suggest that we have a combo
> listening-test-and-vote-for-your-favorite-temperament based on the
> following criteria:
>
> THE PIECE:
>
> WTC-I, Ab major
> (all here would agree that a key approaching the farther side
> of the circle but perhaps not all the way would be best, no?)
>
> THE INSTRUMENT:
>
> something neutral and unobjectionable, perhaps a single
> moog-like sawtooth wave with a decay on the filter to mimic a
> harpsichord. More accurate than a sample, and more 'lab-coat'
> technical.....also a sawtooth would have plenty of harmonics!

Good idea!

> THE TUNINGS:
>
> (historical):
> ET
> WerckIII
> NeidhardtI
> Lehman-Bach (upside-down x-comma squiggles)
> Francis-Bach (equal-beating squiggles)
> Young (we need another tuning where Ab-C is Pythag.)
>
> (neo-WTs):
> AKJ-GWS-RWT.scl
> Secor-1_5wt.scl
> lumma_moh-ha-ha.scl (although I couldn't find it in the archives)
> any others deemed suitable for Bach?

What about extended meantone, with all the enharmonic spellings
carefully worked out?

> I'd be curious if Johnny could spot WerckIII, Brad Lehman could spot
> his squiggle tuning, Carl could spot moh-ha-ha, etc.
>
> I'd also be curious if there would be a consensus about what sounds
> right for Bach!

Just making sure: you're talking about a blind test, where the
subjects don't know the tuning beforehand and therefore can't be
prejudiced, right?

> If no-one wants to do this project within a month, I'll do it!
>
> -Aaron.

Keenan

> Posted by: "Aaron Krister Johnson" aaron@dividebypi.com
> > I'd love to suggest that we have a combo
> listening-test-and-vote-for-your-favorite-temperament based on the
> following criteria:
> > THE PIECE:
> > WTC-I, Ab major
> (all here would agree that a key approaching the farther side
> of the circle but perhaps not all the way would be best, no?)

OK, but the Ab major of WTC 2 might be even better.

- It's longer.

- It modulates variously to Db major, F minor, Bb minor, Eb minor (and their related chords in tonicizing those) et al.

- The prelude and fugue *both* notoriously give us a play of Bbb major (enharmonically A major!) on their last pages, such that this "sharps" area also has to work well.

- Melodically the prelude does a lot with the behavior of the flatted 7th scale degree.

- Its fugue also exists in a shorter version (BWV 901) in *F* major, and presumably both this F version and the Ab version should sound good in whatever temperament.

- The prelude's thematic chords are notated as both sustained and tied over; there's no possible cheating by playing crisp staccato to hide tuning flaws (as one tuning researcher suggests for articulation in playing the book 1 Ab prelude).

- The prelude's opening presents the Ab major chord with the major 3rd in the most exposed position, namely on top. So do some of the other iterations when this theme comes back in different keys, enroute.

- There are lots of Cb and Gb that have to sound good (both harmonically and within scale motion melodically), even if the temperament was set up to favor the more common B natural and F#.

Brad Lehman

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Brad Lehman <bpl@...> wrote:
>
> - The prelude's thematic chords are notated as both sustained and tied
> over; there's no possible cheating by playing crisp staccato to hide
> tuning flaws (as one tuning researcher suggests for articulation in
> playing the book 1 Ab prelude).

This is an attack on Mark Lindley's ideas of tuning for Bach, which
Brad has misrepresented. If Brad wants to say that Mark Lindley is
cheating, let him say so straight out and take responsibility for the
accusation, rather than insinuating.

Smears against specific but unnamed people are almost impossible to
refute - unless you are thoroughly familiar with the history of the
debate. But I happen to know Mark Lindley is the only person Brad
could possibly be referring to here.

I will try to explain what Lindley said about the Ab prelude in Book
I, and related questions, without distortions or inaccuracies, so far
as I remember it.

But first, let's get two things straight: you can't call it 'cheating'
to play certain chords staccato, if you like it that way. And you
can't call it 'cheating' to suggest that Bach's tuning probably
changed over the years between 1722 and 1744.

Like Brad, Mark Lindley believes that temperament is one element of a
convincing performance - which interacts with other elements in that
(for example) the sound of tempered chords will influence how a
performer plays them, in conjunction with other features of the music.
I experienced this at first hand, at a lecture-demonstration last year.

Lindley noted that, in his opinion, and independently of any choice of
tuning, the E major and Ab major preludes in 'Book 1' have contrasting
characters and types of articulation. The E major piece is pastoral,
relaxed, with many sustained and tied-over notes, and an essentially
legato line. Ab major is brisk and vigorous, with many isolated chords
punctuated by rests, or two-part passage-work in 16th- and 8th-notes,
which should probably be performed with mainly detached articulation.

Lindley believes that a tuning in which Ab-C is sharper than E-G#
(though not so sharp as 81/64!) would contribute positively to the
expression of these characters. For instance a relatively
rapidly-beating third Ab-c inside the first chord of the Ab Prelude
might encourage a performer to release this chord a little earlier
than its notated value - which Lindley believes would be musically
beneficial. Contrariwise, the E-G# third at the beginning of the E
Prelude would beat relatively slowly and encourage the performer to
hold the notes down as notated, creating a gentler and more legato
character. (Similar remarks apply to arpeggios in the C major, F#
major Preludes.)

And in general, he thinks that the different characters of these two
keys in his type of tuning suit the different characters of the
preludes - but not so much in Lehman's, where the sizes of the thirds
are the other way round.

Lindley does not under any circumstances accept that the chord of Ab
major, as he would have it in WTC book I, contains 'tuning flaws'. In
his opinion, a performance with his type of tuning and with detached
articulation would be musically optimal. To say that the detached
articulation is intended to 'hide' the tuning of the chord is a gross
misrepresentation. On the contrary, the articulation and the tuning,
experienced together, create the artistic impression.

You might as well say that Bach 'cheated' by 'hiding' the note C in
the middle of a chord!!

Other people may of course prefer different types of tuning, where
different chords have thirds that are as sharp (or sharper!) than
Lindley's proposed Ab-C; they may also prefer different playing
styles. This does not justify Brad, or anyone else, saying that
Lindley's views constitute 'cheating'.

As for the 'Book II' Ab prelude, Lindley had not explicitly discussed
it. I will add for myself that its compositional features are
consistent with the idea that Bach's tuning became closer to ET later
in life.

~~~T~~~

(cc to Lindley)

Aaron,

Aaron Krister Johnson wrote:
>
> Hey,
>
> I'd love to suggest that we have a combo listening-test-and-vote-
for-your-favorite-temperament based on the following criteria:
>
> THE PIECE:
>
> WTC-I, Ab major
(all here would agree that a key approaching the farther
side of the circle but perhaps not all the way would be best, no?)

Both Prelude and fugue?

> THE INSTRUMENT:
>
> something neutral and unobjectionable, perhaps a single
moog-like sawtooth wave with a decay on the filter to mimic a
harpsichord. More accurate than a sample, and more 'lab-coat'
technical.....also a sawtooth would have plenty of harmonics!

Unless anyone can come up with _provably_ authentic harpsichord
timbre in all the tunings, either through micro-sampling or (perhaps)
additive synthesis. To my mind, a test for "what Bach sounds best
in" ought to - as far as possible - use the same kinds of timbres he
did.

> THE TUNINGS:
>
> (historical):
> ET
> WerckIII
> NeidhardtI
> Lehman-Bach (upside-down x-comma squiggles)
> Francis-Bach (equal-beating squiggles)
> Young (we need another tuning where Ab-C is Pythag.)
>
> (neo-WTs):
> AKJ-GWS-RWT.scl
> Secor-1_5wt.scl
> lumma_moh-ha-ha.scl (although I couldn't find it in the
archives)
> any others deemed suitable for Bach?
>
> I'd be curious if Johnny could spot WerckIII, Brad Lehman could
spot his squiggle tuning, Carl could spot moh-ha-ha, etc.

Ditto.

> I'd also be curious if there would be a consensus about what sounds
right for Bach!

I'd be astounded if there were!

> If no-one wants to do this project within a month, I'll do it!

Why wait? ;-)

BTW, shouldn't a championship have prizes? I propose that those
whose verdict on "the best tuning for Bach" doesn't agree with the
most popular choice (I didn't say "majority"), or in case of a tie,
with one of the most popular choices, should undertake to acquire a
CD of Bach recorded in [one of] the most popular tunings[s] -
whenever one should be available.

Yahya