...taking Werckmeister as a microtonalist seriously

Aaron: If Bach is a 'Microtonalist', as Johnny seems to believe, we'd have
to
see evidence that he minded a piece played on organ in Silbermann,
1/6-comma meantone, etc. being played in WerckIII, and/or vice versa.
We also have to explain, given that WerckIII was NOT the only
temperament out and about, why Bach woudn't specify a particular temp.
for a given piece where there was ambiguity.

Johnny: Aaron, I must confess, I do not enjoy corresponding to you. It's
not because you are a genius, but because you are offensive. I would like to
address every point made, but it pains me. I can't dignify your insults.
But I will try to respond to genuine questions. Enough with the pissing
contests.

Aaron: We are also forgetting a couple of things (Johnny is anyway)---what
about the cosmopolitan nature of Bach's musical awareness? He wrote
music in French, English and Italian styles. He transcribed music SNIP
Johnny: One things special about JS is that even though he was a card
carrying Lutheran, he wrote music for the Roman Catholic Church, and other pieces
for different protestant denominations. Yes, Bach was aware of Vivaldi (who
was in an extended meantone), though he may never have heard it done in
Venice. You speak from the point of view that WIII is inferior to the other
tunings.
Aaron: None of it had to be
documented, because the procedure was rather generic. Are you saying
Bach's ears never encountered a modified meantone, and that he didn't
try it himself? Given also that he knew of Silbemann's temperment, it
seem even more unlikely that you could say such a thing.
Johnny: Bach was a Wender man, not a Silbermann man. The story of Bach
banging out meantone false fifths should be instructive enough. It was
inadequate for the modern chromatic composer. I am a chromatic composer in a like
sense, using the latest materials available for sonic meanings. JS wrote at a
time when the use of all 12 keys as tonics was the progressive way to go.
Once favoring its usage on organ, it makes great sense to include it
everywhere, the same one, his favorite. Now, we can quibble about whether or not his
WT was WIII. But all the WTs are similar to each other, and would make a
better default for Bach.
But you are correct there are pieces for lute, pieces for sixth comma organ,
etc., as the circumstances required. It went along with this character, a
man who would compose for different religious auspices.
Aaron: SNIP...it boggles my mind why you would think that!

Secondly, I don't know the answer to this, but a wind player
might---what is the history of key/hole placement on wind instruments?
Aside from breath pressure, all else being equal, what theoretical
temp. where the placers of hole/keys going for?...it seems that this
would resolve alot of the dispute where ensemble playing is concerned.
Related to this---where is it documented, Johnny, that anywhere in
history, wind players did some of the things you do to prepare players
to play in WerckIII? For instance, scotch taping recorders to play in
a perfect WerckIII. If you have such info, please share.

Best,
Aaron.
Johnny: I hope you do mean "best."
In place of scotch tape, wind players used beeswax. It's messier and more
time consuming. There are studies on recorders that show that tone holes have
been expanded from earlier times. And this would be consistent with moving
to ET. I think we have different ideas about what would be announced in
history and what would not. A chromatic tuning tradition in a particular would
not be announced if it was already announced.
best, Johnny

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
>
>
> Aaron: If Bach is a 'Microtonalist', as Johnny seems to believe,
we'd have
> to
> see evidence that he minded a piece played on organ in Silbermann,
> 1/6-comma meantone, etc. being played in WerckIII, and/or vice versa.
> We also have to explain, given that WerckIII was NOT the only
> temperament out and about, why Bach woudn't specify a particular
temp.
> for a given piece where there was ambiguity.
>
> Johnny: Aaron, I must confess, I do not enjoy corresponding to you.
It's
> not because you are a genius, but because you are offensive. I would
like to
> address every point made, but it pains me. I can't dignify your
insults.
> But I will try to respond to genuine questions. Enough with the
pissing
> contests.
>
>
> Aaron: We are also forgetting a couple of things (Johnny is
anyway)---what
> about the cosmopolitan nature of Bach's musical awareness? He wrote
> music in French, English and Italian styles. He transcribed music
SNIP
> Johnny: One things special about JS is that even though he was a
card
> carrying Lutheran, he wrote music for the Roman Catholic Church, and
other pieces
> for different protestant denominations. Yes, Bach was aware of
Vivaldi (who
> was in an extended meantone), though he may never have heard it done
in
> Venice. You speak from the point of view that WIII is inferior to
the other
> tunings.
> Aaron: None of it had to be
> documented, because the procedure was rather generic. Are you saying
> Bach's ears never encountered a modified meantone, and that he didn't
> try it himself? Given also that he knew of Silbemann's temperment, it
> seem even more unlikely that you could say such a thing.
> Johnny: Bach was a Wender man, not a Silbermann man. The story of
Bach
> banging out meantone false fifths should be instructive enough. It
was
> inadequate for the modern chromatic composer. I am a chromatic
composer in a like
> sense, using the latest materials available for sonic meanings. JS
wrote at a
> time when the use of all 12 keys as tonics was the progressive way to
go.
> Once favoring its usage on organ, it makes great sense to include it
> everywhere, the same one, his favorite. Now, we can quibble about
whether or not his
> WT was WIII. But all the WTs are similar to each other, and would
make a
> better default for Bach.
> But you are correct there are pieces for lute, pieces for sixth comma
organ,
> etc., as the circumstances required. It went along with this
character, a
> man who would compose for different religious auspices.
> Aaron: SNIP...it boggles my mind why you would think that!
>
> Secondly, I don't know the answer to this, but a wind player
> might---what is the history of key/hole placement on wind
instruments?
> Aside from breath pressure, all else being equal, what theoretical
> temp. where the placers of hole/keys going for?...it seems that this
> would resolve alot of the dispute where ensemble playing is
concerned.
> Related to this---where is it documented, Johnny, that anywhere in
> history, wind players did some of the things you do to prepare
players
> to play in WerckIII? For instance, scotch taping recorders to play in
> a perfect WerckIII. If you have such info, please share.
>
> Best,
> Aaron.
> Johnny: I hope you do mean "best."
> In place of scotch tape, wind players used beeswax. It's messier and
more
> time consuming. There are studies on recorders that show that tone
holes have
> been expanded from earlier times. And this would be consistent with
moving
> to ET. I think we have different ideas about what would be announced
in
> history and what would not. A chromatic tuning tradition in a
particular would
> not be announced if it was already announced.
> best, Johnny
>