Re: Bach's Tuning--conclusion

Carl writes:

"Two of the resulting temperaments are in my spreadsheet, and
generally do well.

http://lumma.org/music/theory/WellTemperamentComparator.xls

-Carl"

Dear Carl,

Shouldn't WIII be evaluated against the meantone variant it was meshed with culturally? I believe that was sixth comma meantone, used by Frederick the Great.

I believe comparing WIII or any other well-temperament with quartercomma, or even just intonation, service a different purpose. It is more idealistic. It is less historical, and, I believe, less rewarding for capturing JS Bach's actual sentiments. Johnny
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Dear Jon,

Let me make this perfectly clear: my use of the words "obnoxious composer" was meant to have no bearing on Aaron's composition. I am quite unfamiliar with his composition. I am referring to an almost Rosie/Donald kind of interaction. Especially obnoxious is the constant use of religious allegory, accusations of being lame, misrepresentation, etc.

Any other discussions of this type should be held on Metatuning.

best, Johnny
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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:

> I believe comparing WIII or any other well-temperament with
quartercomma, or even just intonation, service a different purpose. It
is more idealistic. It is less historical, and, I believe, less
rewarding for capturing JS Bach's actual sentiments. Johnny

Can you think of any Bach piece which would create problems if
transcribed for 31 equal, however? My feeling is that unhistorical or
not, this works very well before the 19th century. The music not only
survives, as with 12-et, but florishes.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@ wrote:
>
> > I believe comparing WIII or any other well-temperament with
> quartercomma, or even just intonation, service a different purpose. It
> is more idealistic. It is less historical, and, I believe, less
> rewarding for capturing JS Bach's actual sentiments. Johnny
>
> Can you think of any Bach piece which would create problems if
> transcribed for 31 equal, however? My feeling is that unhistorical or
> not, this works very well before the 19th century. The music not only
> survives, as with 12-et, but florishes.

Hi Gene,

What would you do in 31-equal with all those dimished 7th chords in
Bach? I know there are approximations, but do they really work, and
would the 'puns' come out OK?

-A.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Krister Johnson" <aaron@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@>
> wrote:
> >
> > --
> > Can you think of any Bach piece which would create problems if
> > transcribed for 31 equal, however? My feeling is that unhistorical or
> > not, this works very well before the 19th century. The music not only
> > survives, as with 12-et, but florishes.
>
>
> Hi Gene,
>
> What would you do in 31-equal with all those dimished 7th chords in
> Bach? I know there are approximations, but do they really work, and
> would the 'puns' come out OK?
>

Actually, in WTC, there are no 'puns'. I can't think of a single
enharmonic modulation! (Though Bach's lute-playing contemporary,
S.L.Weiss, did use them.)

Enharmonic equivalence comes in a few 'fantasias' or preludes and
fugues - most notoriously the G minor for organ, and the Chromatic
Fantasia. But the whole WTC is indeed technically realizable in
31-equal. And might be historically linked with a 31-key instrument
via Suppig and Bulyowsky, though it is unclear if this link can be
taken seriously...

The dim 7 chords do sound somewhat *different* in 31-equal, but I
wouldn't call them unpleasant.

I think most people are used to a certain amount of grit in the oyster
tuning-wise when it comes to Bach - which ET has plenty of. Bach's
keyboard music, unusually, almost always keeps moving between
harmonies, which may be a symptom of an ET-like tuning. So it might
sound quite different in a non-circulating tuning with so-much-purer
intervals.

~~~T~~~

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Krister Johnson" <aaron@...>
wrote:

> What would you do in 31-equal with all those dimished 7th chords in
> Bach? I know there are approximations, but do they really work, and
> would the 'puns' come out OK?

Since three of the four minor thirds are the same size, this never
aeems to be a problem.

> Hi Gene,
>
> What would you do in 31-equal with all those dimished 7th chords in
> Bach? I know there are approximations, but do they really work, and
> would the 'puns' come out OK?
>
> -A.

A good bit of Bach's organ music would drift, I think.
That doesn't mean it wouldn't sound better (to some).

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Gene,
> >
> > What would you do in 31-equal with all those dimished 7th chords in
> > Bach? I know there are approximations, but do they really work, and
> > would the 'puns' come out OK?
> >
> > -A.
>
> A good bit of Bach's organ music would drift, I think.
> That doesn't mean it wouldn't sound better (to some).

What's an example of something you thnk would drift? I have that
peoblem for 19th century music sometimes, but not 18th century as yet.

> > A good bit of Bach's organ music would drift, I think.
> > That doesn't mean it wouldn't sound better (to some).
>
> What's an example of something you thnk would drift? I have that
> peoblem for 19th century music sometimes, but not 18th century
> as yet.

The g minor fantasia from BWV 542, for one. The famous
great (or is it little?) fugue comes from (or went into?) this
set, but the fanstasia is little-heard.

-Carl

"Aaron Krister Johnson" aaron@dividebypi.com akjmicro wrote:
> Hi Gene,
>
> What would you do in 31-equal with all those dimished 7th chords in
> Bach? I know there are approximations, but do they really work, and
> would the 'puns' come out OK?
>
> -A.
But in Bach -- unlike much later music -- the diminished seventh chord has a function in diatonic harmony, as an extension of vii. This suggests strongly that an equal, or even near-equal, division of the octave into four parts is less important than an audible embedding in the diatonic collection.

djw

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > > A good bit of Bach's organ music would drift, I think.
> > > That doesn't mean it wouldn't sound better (to some).
> >
> > What's an example of something you thnk would drift? I have that
> > peoblem for 19th century music sometimes, but not 18th century
> > as yet.
>
> The g minor fantasia from BWV 542, for one. The famous
> great (or is it little?) fugue comes from (or went into?) this
> set, but the fanstasia is little-heard.
>

As I said, it is very rare for Bach either to use enharmonic
progressions, or to go all the way 'round the circle'. The g minor
Fantasia is a famous exception. (And the Chromatic Fantasia.) You
would have to renotate part of it to preserve meaningful voice-leading
and harmonic progression in 31-edo.

Your metric of fame might be different from mine... anyway BWV 542 is
a Fantasia & Fugue, of which the fugue has the catchy little subject d
Bb c A Bb G g f# g e f# d etc.

~~~T~~~