Bach's Tuning cont.

From http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Neidhardt-Johann-Georg.htm

"Johann Georg Neidhardt was a German theorist and composer. At first Neidhardt was a student in Altdorf and Wittenberg and at the University of Jena he studied theology. It is possible that he also had some musical instruction from the university organist, Johann Nicolaus Bach (1669-1753) - known more commonly as the “Jena” Bach. While still studying theology at the university, Neidhardt wrote a treatise on the problems of setting a musical temperament (1706), composed for performance at the university a celebratory composition to honor Duke Friedrich of Saxony (he mentions this in the dedication of his book on “The Best and Easiest Temperament on a monochord” and received permission from J.N. Bach to try out the equal temperament he had suggested on one stop/register of the newly-built organ of the Jena City Church. Having failed in this experiment (the temperament which J.N. Bach set by ear was judged to be more usable/singable), Neidhardt spent the rest of his life, nevertheless, trying to resolve the problem of temperament."

How in the world could anyone claim Neidhardt influenced the tuning of J.S. Bach if the above is true? Or does one need more proof that JS Bach was established in a tuning for life since childhood?

Johnnny
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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
>
> From http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Lib/Neidhardt-Johann-Georg.htm
>
>
> "Johann Georg Neidhardt was a German theorist and composer. At first
Neidhardt was a student in Altdorf and Wittenberg and at the
University of Jena he studied theology. It is possible that he also
had some musical instruction from the university organist, Johann
Nicolaus Bach (1669-1753) - known more commonly as the “Jena”
Bach. While still studying theology at the university, Neidhardt wrote
a treatise on the problems of setting a musical temperament (1706),
composed for performance at the university a celebratory composition
to honor Duke Friedrich of Saxony (he mentions this in the dedication
of his book on “The Best and Easiest Temperament on a monochord”
and received permission from J.N. Bach to try out the equal
temperament he had suggested on one stop/register of the newly-built
organ of the Jena City Church. Having failed in this experiment (the
temperament which J.N. Bach set by ear was judged to be more
usable/singable), Neidhardt spent the rest of his life, nevertheless,
trying to resolve the problem of temperament."
>
> How in the world could anyone claim Neidhardt influenced the tuning
of J.S. Bach if the above is true?

You can't.

> Or does one need more proof that JS Bach was established in a tuning
> for life since childhood?

No, but one *does* need direct evidence that it was Werckmeister, of
which there is at best, only really thin indirect evidence.

For instance, what is the tuning of J.N. Bach, which he set by ear?
Are you going to try to say that was Werckmeister III?

Again, you are overly concerned about these issues, probably more than
Bach would be. You are also not realistic enough about the prospect of
ad-hoc family recipes that served a purpose, that no one in the Bach
family felt the need to write down, probably, because many musicians
had their own pet tunings, and they were all probably close enough to
each other that any ensemble musician could adjust by ear.

In short, they probably didn't give a shit enough about tuning.
Otherwise, as it has been said before, we would know very clearly.
Bach took the time to write out ornament tables; if he cared as much
about tuning issues, we'd have some direct info. But we don't. CPE
Bach was quite vague except to say 'temper most fifths'. More than
that, we don't know.

Nothing more needs to be said any more about this...it's getting
really silly. You've clearly invested an awful amount of time and
energy into 'proving' to yourself and others that Bach was writing for
Werck III---as an experiment, probably worthwhile, but it's another
thing altogether to make definitive statements and mislead the general
public with strong conclusions when there is nothing but speculation.
The same might be said for Lehman's work, in a sense. Speculation is
just speculation, not hard fact, and it shouldn't be turned into fact.

Otherwise, on the other hand, it's a good thing you're out there doing
it, and raising the questions, and performing some great music, so
hats off!

-A.

Thank you Aaron. This needed to be said.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you Aaron. This needed to be said.

I think at the same time you might point out that Werck3 is a fine Bach
tuning, whether he used it or not.

> > Thank you Aaron. This needed to be said.
>
> I think at the same time you might point out that Werck3 is
> a fine Bach tuning, whether he used it or not.

Also agree.

-Carl

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@ wrote:
> >
> > "Johann Georg Neidhardt was a German theorist and composer. (...)
“The Best and Easiest Temperament on a monochord”
> and received permission from J.N. Bach to try out the equal
> temperament he had suggested on one stop/register of the newly-built
> organ of the Jena City Church. Having failed in this experiment (...)

This is a very partial summary. If you read the sources you will find
that, running through all the keys, it was *difficult* to distinguish
between the tunings set by J.N. Bach and Neidhardt, until the judges
tried the performance of a bass aria in B flat minor. Not until this
point was it possible to say whose tuning was better.

Certainly Neidhardt was attempting to set equal temperament by
monochord. However, it is not recorded what temperament J.N. Bach was
using. Neidhardt's result may have been less than optimal in one or
another key on account of inaccuracies in use of the monochord, or
many other factors. Given the frequency with which B flat minor was
used in practice, the 'failure' was scarcely significant.

We might tentatively deduce that J.N. Bach tuned fairly near to equal
temperament at that contest - otherwise it would have sounded *worse*
than Neidhardt's near-ET in some keys. One simple possibility is that
JN Bach tuned ET by ear better than Neidhardt did by monochord.

> > How in the world could anyone claim Neidhardt influenced the tuning
> of J.S. Bach if the above is true?
>
> You can't.

How can anyone in the world claim that Neidhardt *didn't* influence
the tuning of J.S. Bach?

You can't. Lack of evidence cuts both ways.

To add to the information presented by Johnny, which only refers to
Neidhardt's early efforts with ET : Neidhardt later presented many
*irregular* temperament recipes, which he must have developed between
1706 and 1724 or later. Did he get any helpful hints from JN Bach in
preparing them?

> > Or does one need more proof that JS Bach was established in a tuning
> > for life since childhood?

I don't understand this question. Where is the first proof, never mind
'one more'? Bach, who checked the tuning of his harpsichords daily,
did so the same way for (say) forty years? That's 14,400 tunings. Yet
that is what is claimed. 'Bach was established in a tuning for life
since childhood'. Just think about what this means and what one would
need to 'prove' it.

Where is one piece of direct evidence as to what Bach did with respect
to tuning harpsichords in his 'childhood' (though in 1706 he was
already 21)?

OK, I stop now. Just to note that it is very easy to select a few
facts out of a huge pile of more or less useful information to 'make a
case'. For example, for the Werckmeister 1698 continuo tuning, which
is different from all the 1691 temperaments. This is connected to Bach
in two ways (documented in the Norrback book): one, it was found
copied out in the documents of an organist-composer relation of his;
two, it was also copied into the proceedings of the Leipzig
music-theory society founded by Mizler ... Caveat lector.

~~~T~~~