Melody-Centric Alternative Tuning Systems Yahoo Group:

/MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSyste
ms/

Bill.Flavell at GMail.com

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@...> wrote:
> /MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSyste
> ms/

Outside of the typo/linebreak, which should read:
/MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSystems/

Bill neglects to include the first sentence, from his mission
statement for the group:

"A group for composers, music theorists, and/or musicians who are
interested in my melody-centric approach to the design of alternative
non-12TET tuning systems, as opposed to the psychopathologically
harmony-centric approach of the orthodox alternative tuning
establishment."

So I guess I'm either insulted, he missed my melodies, or my
occupations now include PsychoPathologist.

Cheers,
Jon

Well, I've got a soft spot for Bill, for a couple of reasons. More
than 15 years ago I started using what I called "folding fingers" in
12-EDO, an interweaving tetrachord approach I gleaned from a '50s
Bulgarian textbook and a deep conversation with a very stoned and
talented rock guitarist, who used a similar idea in soloing. As far
as I can make out, the basic idea is the same as Bill's "nested
(x)chords", and the whole approach is melody-based: harmony can be
downright accidental in heterophony.

Of course this approach leads straight into alternative tuning; just
hunting for information on tetrachords in a library will inevitably
cause you to stumble on the ancient Greeks for example.

As far as Bill's humorously offensive approach, it doesn't bother me
a bit. For one thing, artistic debate in some cultures has a whole
different set of rules. For another, I had one of the "famous
composers" listed on the title page of this group as a teacher,
years ago, and that person was, by my standards, a very uptight
square- in some ways a truly great teacher, in other ways... :-)
Personally, I say let every artist say what they think, we'll take
it with humor.

Triadic thinking is just dandy, certainly a great deal of wonderful
music has been made that way. However, it is ONE approach, not THE
approach. Because "harmony" and "triadic harmony" tend to get
confused, I think I can see what irks Bill.

But! Bill, if the "orthodox alternative tuning establishment" is
represented on this list, exclusively "harmonic" approaches are NOT
the only things going on, and certainly not exclusively triad-
fixated thinking (otherwise I wouldn't be here). If you read, for
example, George Secor and Margo Schulter's papers, you'll find not
only melodic concerns as a main force, but the actual roots of the
triad before it became a reified cartoon of itself in mainstream
Western music. And the whole subsets-of-giant-EDOs thing isn't just
a way of approximating harmonic intervals, but also a way of seeking
structural integrity in the melodic realm. The "Eastern
Contingent" :-) here is superb when it comes to melodic approaches
to tuning- I doubt that they realize how liberating and inspiring
they are by simply doing their thing.

Anyway carry on.

-Cameron Bobro

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@>
wrote:
> >
/MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSy
ste
> > ms/
>
> Outside of the typo/linebreak, which should read:
>
/MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSy
stems/
>
> Bill neglects to include the first sentence, from his mission
> statement for the group:
>
> "A group for composers, music theorists, and/or musicians who are
> interested in my melody-centric approach to the design of
alternative
> non-12TET tuning systems, as opposed to the psychopathologically
> harmony-centric approach of the orthodox alternative tuning
> establishment."
>
> So I guess I'm either insulted, he missed my melodies, or my
> occupations now include PsychoPathologist.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

SNIP

>
> Triadic thinking is just dandy, certainly a great deal of wonderful
> music has been made that way. However, it is ONE approach, not THE
> approach. Because "harmony" and "triadic harmony" tend to get
> confused, I think I can see what irks Bill.
>
> But! Bill, if the "orthodox alternative tuning establishment" is
> represented on this list, exclusively "harmonic" approaches are NOT
> the only things going on, and certainly not exclusively triad-
> fixated thinking (otherwise I wouldn't be here). If you read, for
> example, George Secor and Margo Schulter's papers, you'll find not
> only melodic concerns as a main force, but the actual roots of the
> triad before it became a reified cartoon of itself in mainstream
> Western music. And the whole subsets-of-giant-EDOs thing isn't just
> a way of approximating harmonic intervals, but also a way of seeking
> structural integrity in the melodic realm. The "Eastern
> Contingent" :-) here is superb when it comes to melodic approaches
> to tuning- I doubt that they realize how liberating and inspiring
> they are by simply doing their thing.
>

That is exactly what I am trying to do!

> Anyway carry on.
>
> -Cameron Bobro
>
>

You betcha.
Oz.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" wrote:
> >
/MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSys
te
> > ms/
>
> Outside of the typo/linebreak, which should read:
>
/MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSys
tems/
>
> Bill neglects to include the first sentence, from his mission
> statement for the group:
>
> "A group for composers, music theorists, and/or musicians who are
> interested in my melody-centric approach to the design of
alternative
> non-12TET tuning systems, as opposed to the psychopathologically
> harmony-centric approach of the orthodox alternative tuning
> establishment."
>
> So I guess I'm either insulted, he missed my melodies, or my
> occupations now include PsychoPathologist.

Obviously, Jon, Bill missed your melodies! ;-)

Regards,
Yahya

I checked this new list out out of curiosity.

I guess I just don't get it. I know what the Morse-Thue sequence is,
etc. But what about this idea of 'Melody Centric' is so special/new?

I also don't understand why anyone would not view melody and harmony
as different aspects of the same phenomenon....what am I missing here?

I've always thought: harmony=simultaneous, melody=sequential.

Of course, there are other phenomenon too, like implied harmony (think
the arpeggiated melodic figures in a Bach cello suite), and you have
ethnic scales where one might not choose to use simultaneous pitch
class arrangements akin to fifths, thirds, etc., but from what I can
tell, this is NOT what Bill means, or does he?

-Aaron.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@> wrote:
> >
/MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSyste
> > ms/
>
> Outside of the typo/linebreak, which should read:
>
/MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSystems/
>
> Bill neglects to include the first sentence, from his mission
> statement for the group:
>
> "A group for composers, music theorists, and/or musicians who are
> interested in my melody-centric approach to the design of alternative
> non-12TET tuning systems, as opposed to the psychopathologically
> harmony-centric approach of the orthodox alternative tuning
> establishment."
>
> So I guess I'm either insulted, he missed my melodies, or my
> occupations now include PsychoPathologist.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

I like the concept "implied harmony" and "simultaneous pitch class
arrangements". That's the whole deal with monodic performances hereabouts.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Krister Johnson" <aaron@dividebypi.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 05 Aral�k 2006 Sal� 17:38
Subject: [tuning] Re: Melody-Centric Alternative Tuning Systems Yahoo Group:

> I checked this new list out out of curiosity.
>
> I guess I just don't get it. I know what the Morse-Thue sequence is,
> etc. But what about this idea of 'Melody Centric' is so special/new?
>
> I also don't understand why anyone would not view melody and harmony
> as different aspects of the same phenomenon....what am I missing here?
>
> I've always thought: harmony=simultaneous, melody=sequential.
>
> Of course, there are other phenomenon too, like implied harmony (think
> the arpeggiated melodic figures in a Bach cello suite), and you have
> ethnic scales where one might not choose to use simultaneous pitch
> class arrangements akin to fifths, thirds, etc., but from what I can
> tell, this is NOT what Bill means, or does he?
>
> -Aaron.
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Krister Johnson" <aaron@...> wrote:

> I also don't understand why anyone would not view melody and harmony
> as different aspects of the same phenomenon....what am I missing here?

I don't know what Bill is on about, but when constructing a scale one
can focus on harmony (constructing the scale from chords, for
instance) on what you might call melody (constructing a scale by
requiring it to be strictly proper for instance) or have
considerations coming from both directions.

Jon Szanto wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@...> wrote:
>> /MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSyste
>> ms/
> > Outside of the typo/linebreak, which should read:
> /MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSystems/
> > Bill neglects to include the first sentence, from his mission
> statement for the group:
> > "A group for composers, music theorists, and/or musicians who are
> interested in my melody-centric approach to the design of alternative
> non-12TET tuning systems, as opposed to the psychopathologically
> harmony-centric approach of the orthodox alternative tuning
> establishment."
> > So I guess I'm either insulted, he missed my melodies, or my
> occupations now include PsychoPathologist.

Look more closely: the group is about "MY melody-centric approach" (emphasis added), not melody-centric approaches in general. :-)

"Orthodox alternative" ... :-)

The music of the mid east often uses tetradchords where they will 'modulate between different ones sometimes on the same tonic, sometimes otherwise.
i am sure those on the list from these parts might have more to say about how they are used in more detail.
--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/index.html>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main/index.asp> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Thanks for the mind-bogglingly
articulate and perceptive response,
Cameron! :) And my apologies for my
"bad-ass/cranky" side, but if music isn't
important enough to get pissed off
about, what the flock is? :) LOL ROTFWL

Bill.Flavell at GMail.com

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro" <misterbobro@...>
wrote:
>
> Well, I've got a soft spot for Bill, for a couple of reasons. More
> than 15 years ago I started using what I called "folding fingers"
in
> 12-EDO, an interweaving tetrachord approach I gleaned from a '50s
> Bulgarian textbook and a deep conversation with a very stoned and
> talented rock guitarist, who used a similar idea in soloing. As far
> as I can make out, the basic idea is the same as Bill's "nested
> (x)chords", and the whole approach is melody-based: harmony can be
> downright accidental in heterophony.
>
> Of course this approach leads straight into alternative tuning;
just
> hunting for information on tetrachords in a library will inevitably
> cause you to stumble on the ancient Greeks for example.
>
> As far as Bill's humorously offensive approach, it doesn't bother
me
> a bit. For one thing, artistic debate in some cultures has a whole
> different set of rules. For another, I had one of the "famous
> composers" listed on the title page of this group as a teacher,
> years ago, and that person was, by my standards, a very uptight
> square- in some ways a truly great teacher, in other ways... :-)
> Personally, I say let every artist say what they think, we'll take
> it with humor.
>
> Triadic thinking is just dandy, certainly a great deal of wonderful
> music has been made that way. However, it is ONE approach, not THE
> approach. Because "harmony" and "triadic harmony" tend to get
> confused, I think I can see what irks Bill.
>
> But! Bill, if the "orthodox alternative tuning establishment" is
> represented on this list, exclusively "harmonic" approaches are NOT
> the only things going on, and certainly not exclusively triad-
> fixated thinking (otherwise I wouldn't be here). If you read, for
> example, George Secor and Margo Schulter's papers, you'll find not
> only melodic concerns as a main force, but the actual roots of the
> triad before it became a reified cartoon of itself in mainstream
> Western music. And the whole subsets-of-giant-EDOs thing isn't just
> a way of approximating harmonic intervals, but also a way of
seeking
> structural integrity in the melodic realm. The "Eastern
> Contingent" :-) here is superb when it comes to melodic approaches
> to tuning- I doubt that they realize how liberating and inspiring
> they are by simply doing their thing.
>
> Anyway carry on.
>
> -Cameron Bobro
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@>
> wrote:
> > >
>
/MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSy
> ste
> > > ms/
> >
> > Outside of the typo/linebreak, which should read:
> >
>
/MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSy
> stems/
> >
> > Bill neglects to include the first sentence, from his mission
> > statement for the group:
> >
> > "A group for composers, music theorists, and/or musicians who are
> > interested in my melody-centric approach to the design of
> alternative
> > non-12TET tuning systems, as opposed to the psychopathologically
> > harmony-centric approach of the orthodox alternative tuning
> > establishment."
> >
> > So I guess I'm either insulted, he missed my melodies, or my
> > occupations now include PsychoPathologist.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jon
> >
>

Where are your melodies, Jon? :)

Bill.Flavell at GMail.com

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@>
wrote:
> >
/MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSys
te
> > ms/
>
> Outside of the typo/linebreak, which should read:
>
/MelodyCentricAlternativeTuningSys
tems/
>
> Bill neglects to include the first sentence, from his mission
> statement for the group:
>
> "A group for composers, music theorists, and/or musicians who are
> interested in my melody-centric approach to the design of
alternative
> non-12TET tuning systems, as opposed to the psychopathologically
> harmony-centric approach of the orthodox alternative tuning
> establishment."
>
> So I guess I'm either insulted, he missed my melodies, or my
> occupations now include PsychoPathologist.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>