Transposition, Inversion, 12EDO History/Rationale:

I think this is a very important topic
for discussion because this deals with the
whole subject of the original rationale for the
adoption of the 12EDO tuning in the first place,
and why for some it is considered to be a "wrong
turn" in the path of western music, if I'm
understanding Harry Partch's and other microtonalists'
opposition to it correctly.

Bill.Flavell at GMail.com

Bill,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@...> wrote:
> if I'm
> understanding Harry Partch's and other microtonalists'
> opposition to it correctly.

You aren't, at least as far as Partch is concerned. Other
microtonalists may have other reasons.

Best,
Jon

I was thinking that the major motivation
for a transposition-capable tuning was to be
able to transpose music into the singing
ranges of human vocalists, and that that
motivation probably came from the catholic
church.

When I said that inversion was more
significant than transposition, I meant
from a compositional point of view, in terms
of providing more different compositional
raw material.

I still haven't read the recent book
on the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Temperament-Became-Battleground-Western-
Civilization/dp/0375703306/sr=1-1/qid=1164844224/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-
6902085-6892825?ie=UTF8&s=books

Bill.Flavell at GMail.com

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@...>
wrote:
>
>
> I think this is a very important topic
> for discussion because this deals with the
> whole subject of the original rationale for the
> adoption of the 12EDO tuning in the first place,
> and why for some it is considered to be a "wrong
> turn" in the path of western music, if I'm
> understanding Harry Partch's and other microtonalists'
> opposition to it correctly.
>
>
> Bill.Flavell at GMail.com
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@>
wrote:
> > if I'm
> > understanding Harry Partch's and other microtonalists'
> > opposition to it correctly.
>
> You aren't, at least as far as Partch is concerned. Other
> microtonalists may have other reasons.
>
> Best,
> Jon

Thanks for the response, Jon! :)

Bill.Flavell at GMail.com

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@>
wrote:
> > if I'm
> > understanding Harry Partch's and other microtonalists'
> > opposition to it correctly.
>
> You aren't, at least as far as Partch is concerned. Other
> microtonalists may have other reasons.
>
> Best,
> Jon
>

I was under the impression that Partch was primarily motivated by
a vision of St. Augustine wearing a lilac kimono and
singing "Camptown Races". :-)

Bill- all this stuff about "opposition" and "microtonalists" is very
misleading. The vast majority of people in most of the world, for
the entire history of the world, play music in tunings other than
12-EDO.

There does not need to be any justification given for not
using a specific regional tuning.

Even the Western world has never been 12-EDO-only, and by no
coincidence, at the very time when it became
physically possible, by means of electronic instruments and tuners,
to actually create a literal 12-EDO musical world, "alternative"
tuning movements reasserted themselves, and huge movements in
popular music moved towards regions where tuning is either unclear or
hardly important.

Actually I'm not a fan of terms like "microtones" and "xenharmonic",
because they assume 12-EDO as somehow central, which is like saying
McDonald's = Human Food as far as I'm concerned. How about
the "Actually Tuning List" and "Actually Making Music List"?

-Cameron Bobro

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro" <misterbobro@...> wrote:
> Bill- all this stuff about "opposition" and "microtonalists" is very
> misleading. The vast majority of people in most of the world, for
> the entire history of the world, play music in tunings other than
> 12-EDO.

Word.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@...>
wrote:
>
>
> When I said that inversion was more
> significant than transposition, I meant
> from a compositional point of view, in terms
> of providing more different compositional
> raw material.
>

By the way, I completely agree with you that inversions are
important in 12-EDO. Literal inversions are something that is "true"
about the tuning, whereas a restful major triad on the tonic in 12-
EDO is merely a theatrical reference to the past or to foreign
tunings.

-Cameron Bobro

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro" <misterbobro@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > When I said that inversion was more
> > significant than transposition, I meant
> > from a compositional point of view, in terms
> > of providing more different compositional
> > raw material.
> >
>
> By the way, I completely agree with you that inversions are
> important in 12-EDO.

Yes, and the fact that those inversions can be
transposed to 12 different pitch classes which
can potentially lead to 12 different "super-tonalities"
is a unique property of EDO tunings, I think.

Bill.Flavell at GMail.com

Thanks for the humor and response, Cameron! :) LOL ROTFWL

Bill.Flavell at GMail.com

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro" <misterbobro@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@> wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Flavell" <musictheorybill@>
> wrote:
> > > if I'm
> > > understanding Harry Partch's and other microtonalists'
> > > opposition to it correctly.
> >
> > You aren't, at least as far as Partch is concerned. Other
> > microtonalists may have other reasons.
> >
> > Best,
> > Jon
> >
>
> I was under the impression that Partch was primarily motivated by
> a vision of St. Augustine wearing a lilac kimono and
> singing "Camptown Races". :-)
>
> Bill- all this stuff about "opposition" and "microtonalists" is very
> misleading. The vast majority of people in most of the world, for
> the entire history of the world, play music in tunings other than
> 12-EDO.
>
> There does not need to be any justification given for not
> using a specific regional tuning.
>
> Even the Western world has never been 12-EDO-only, and by no
> coincidence, at the very time when it became
> physically possible, by means of electronic instruments and tuners,
> to actually create a literal 12-EDO musical world, "alternative"
> tuning movements reasserted themselves, and huge movements in
> popular music moved towards regions where tuning is either unclear
or
> hardly important.
>
> Actually I'm not a fan of terms like "microtones"
and "xenharmonic",
> because they assume 12-EDO as somehow central, which is like saying
> McDonald's = Human Food as far as I'm concerned. How about
> the "Actually Tuning List" and "Actually Making Music List"?
>
> -Cameron Bobro
>