Re: a bit o' science (adaptively-sufficiently-pure vs. pre-determine

Ozan: I have read throughout this week all too many allegations regarding a
faithful rendition of J.S. Bach's compositions that amount to no less queer
a case than an orthodox person claiming that the truest pitches of Turkish
Music are those of Arel-Ezgi and that one ought to abide by them zealously
without the slightest deviation in practice.

Religiosity in a single tuning is a most bizzare thing - especially when
tuning as a science ought to be considered a practical solution to
music-making!

Johnny: I feel that way about religion, period. Somehow, each of us brings our own personal baggage to this discussion. It should not be unexpected, but it is there nonetheless. Now everyone is picking sides and there are no sides. My view is to is to serve as an informant.

Ozan, what test? You either like the music I make or you don’t. Where is the science? Say, if I try for a 386 cents a perfectly just major third, would you suppose that I miss it and remain unaware as to this result?

If I were to try for a 386 cents major third, how far do you think I would miss by if I was using my voice? How far do you think I would drift on a note that I was holding? Actually, as you may be unaware, I have invested many years into matching pitch using Korg tuners which had a super-sensitive arrow to show any fluctuation. On a bassoon, I can hold the arrow absolutely still and for more than at least a minimum. Circular breathing can also be used, and that is the toughest thing to do while holding pitch. Trills are a good place to circular breathe.

Ozan: The physical boundaries between acoustical reality and instrumental
virtuosity have dissapeared in these discussions. Someone ought to put
Johnny's super-human abilities to the test and see if what he claims to
achieve is actually true in his live performances.

Johnny: I will try not to be insulted by this suggestion. In years past, on this list, we had the discussions of how to test whether I could hear and sing a single cent. It is not possible. However, I have had the good fortune to be in a room with many that have been on this list and have demonstrated such. As well, I do this on the radio.

Here's how I do it:
1. Sing a descending Perfect Fifth - a real 700 cent V I cadence.
2. Sing an ascending Perfect Fifth Pure - a real 701.955 etc. pure fifth (the interval in the Wizard of Oz when the soldiers chant outside the home of the Wicked Witch of the West. Sorry if this comparison is unuseful).
3. Isolate the top note sung and the note just mathematically shy of 2 cents, or a schisma.
4. Repeat these top two notes, alternating between the two distinct pitches at 2 cents apart; using the hand to indicate the different will help those unused to working with such close interval relationships. (Remember, most try to know this interval out.)
5. Starting wit the top note, lay in a single pitch between the top note and the previous 2 cent-lower note.
6. Repeat all 3 distinct notes up and down to the heart's content.

Here's how to play it on an alto recorder, starting on the note F:

open close open
open

open open close close
open

open open close open
open

Ozan, you are welcome behind the curtan! Johnny

Ozan: I will not consider a single-cent's worth of deviance from someone who
claims to control his instrument with cent-precision excusable though.
An incredulous Oz.

Johnny: You are free to disregard whatever you like. But you are missing the point that I was making, in spite of all efforts to the contrary.

All best, Johnny
________________________________________________________________________
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I shall ignore certain snide remarks by you and delve right into the heart of the matter my dear Johnny:

You are now, it seems, a devoted disciple of Werckmeister III tuning for a historically-correct Bach interpretation, to which -given my ignorance on this topic- I have nothing to say except to wish you the best. Regarding its academic value, qualified scholars surely ought to scrutinize your observations. All in all, this does not seem to be the place to "advertise" them. Why not publish them in an academic paper?

On the other hand, when it comes to how "purely", or shall we say, "faithfully" one can imitate a tempered fixed-pitch instrument like the harpsichord or pianoforte via an unfretted string or wind instrument (say, your magick basoon) during live performance is a question of physical considerations. Granted, you may be an excelling executant, a dedicated musician who can accurately match the unison of a reference tuner (whom among us can't for that matter?), you may even commit to memory better than any of us all the pitch information a concert requires; but it is an extraordinary, nay, unheard of event if you can sound only those pitches of a keyboard tuned to WIII and deviate not from the course of this (or, for that matter, any other) temperament by even as much as a cent the whole time.

If you allege to accomplish this incredible phenomenon, it truly deserves scientific analysis through pitch measurement tools in order that we may applaud you for the possession of such an incredible and undiscovered talent.

At the same time, it would not hurt to be doubly sure that (given the tautology of the procedure you described below) you indeed can sing "cents" and not just any other interval you fancy as a "cent"; which of course would say nothing about how such a demonstration reflects instrumental practice during the flow of music.

Do please remember that I haven taken utmost care to show you the proper respect as a professor of the art of bassoon. But, given the ludicrousness when shown hard-data of parallel talks by those who religiously adhere to the Arel-Ezgi system, forgive me if I sound more than just a little sceptical!

Feel free to dismiss the worthless opinions of he who does nought but occupy this productive tuning-list community with his jibber-jabber.

I now retreat to dark slumbering shadows of silence.
Wizard of Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@aol.com
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 25 Kasım 2006 Cumartesi 22:49
Subject: [tuning] Re: a bit o' science (adaptively-sufficiently-pure vs. pre-determine

Ozan: I have read throughout this week all too many allegations regarding a
faithful rendition of J.S. Bach's compositions that amount to no less queer
a case than an orthodox person claiming that the truest pitches of Turkish
Music are those of Arel-Ezgi and that one ought to abide by them zealously
without the slightest deviation in practice.

Religiosity in a single tuning is a most bizzare thing - especially when
tuning as a science ought to be considered a practical solution to
music-making!

Johnny: I feel that way about religion, period. Somehow, each of us brings our own personal baggage to this discussion. It should not be unexpected, but it is there nonetheless. Now everyone is picking sides and there are no sides. My view is to is to serve as an informant.

Ozan, what test? You either like the music I make or you don’t. Where is the science? Say, if I try for a 386 cents a perfectly just major third, would you suppose that I miss it and remain unaware as to this result?

If I were to try for a 386 cents major third, how far do you think I would miss by if I was using my voice? How far do you think I would drift on a note that I was holding? Actually, as you may be unaware, I have invested many years into matching pitch using Korg tuners which had a super-sensitive arrow to show any fluctuation. On a bassoon, I can hold the arrow absolutely still and for more than at least a minimum. Circular breathing can also be used, and that is the toughest thing to do while holding pitch. Trills are a good place to circular breathe.

Ozan: The physical boundaries between acoustical reality and instrumental
virtuosity have dissapeared in these discussions. Someone ought to put
Johnny's super-human abilities to the test and see if what he claims to
achieve is actually true in his live performances.

Johnny: I will try not to be insulted by this suggestion. In years past, on this list, we had the discussions of how to test whether I could hear and sing a single cent. It is not possible. However, I have had the good fortune to be in a room with many that have been on this list and have demonstrated such. As well, I do this on the radio.

Here's how I do it:
1. Sing a descending Perfect Fifth - a real 700 cent V I cadence.
2. Sing an ascending Perfect Fifth Pure - a real 701.955 etc. pure fifth (the interval in the Wizard of Oz when the soldiers chant outside the home of the Wicked Witch of the West. Sorry if this comparison is unuseful).
3. Isolate the top note sung and the note just mathematically shy of 2 cents, or a schisma.
4. Repeat these top two notes, alternating between the two distinct pitches at 2 cents apart; using the hand to indicate the different will help those unused to working with such close interval relationships. (Remember, most try to know this interval out.)
5. Starting wit the top note, lay in a single pitch between the top note and the previous 2 cent-lower note.
6. Repeat all 3 distinct notes up and down to the heart's content.

Here's how to play it on an alto recorder, starting on the note F:

open close open
open

open open close close
open

open open close open
open

Ozan, you are welcome behind the curtan! Johnny

Ozan: I will not consider a single-cent's worth of deviance from someone who
claims to control his instrument with cent-precision excusable though.
An incredulous Oz.

Johnny: You are free to disregard whatever you like. But you are missing the point that I was making, in spite of all efforts to the contrary.

All best, Johnny

Ozan: I shall ignore certain snide remarks by you and delve right into the heart of the matter my dear Johnny:
You are now, it seems, a devoted disciple of Werckmeister III tuning for a historically-correct Bach interpretation, to which -given my ignorance on this topic- I have nothing to say except to wish you the best. Regarding its academic value, qualified scholars surely ought to scrutinize your observations. All in all, this does not seem to be the place to "advertise" them. Why not publish them in an academic paper?

Johnny: Please wake up, have some coffee, haven’t you been reading about the impoverishment of academia, certainly as it applies to musicology? OK, I understand you are in line to get a doctorate, so….
And what is wrong with the august body that is this Tuning List, alternative and otherwise?

Actually, my article “Bach’s Tuning” was published in issue #2 of Pitch (1982). You can probably hear my annual broadcast of Microtonal Bach on WKCR Radio in New York over the Internet on Christmas Day.

Ozan: On the other hand, when it comes to how "purely", or shall we say, "faithfully" one can imitate a tempered fixed-pitch instrument like the harpsichord or pianoforte via an unfretted string or wind instrument (say, your magick basoon) during live performance is a question of physical considerations. Granted, you may be an excelling executant, a dedicated musician who can accurately match the unison of a reference tuner (whom among us can't for that matter?), you may even commit to memory better than any of us all the pitch information a concert requires; but it is an extraordinary, nay, unheard of event if you can sound only those pitches of a keyboard tuned to WIII and deviate not from the course of this (or, for that matter, any other) temperament by even as much as a cent the whole time.

Johnny: Dear Ozan, I speak of no phenomenon. A talented musician awash in microtonal music has no choice but to match the tuning of the instrument of least tuning flexibility – the keyboard in this case. Other than retuning the instrument with subtle temporary modifications, I am only doing what any other musician would do in my milieu.

Bassoon lesson for you: did you know that one cannot just blow and press keys? Of course, the same is true for most winds to some extent, but on the bassoon there is a HUGE difference in the results between informed “blowing” and just blowing. I suspect that if I was to try to explain exactly how I blow each and every note on the bassoon, it would be impossible to truly understand because it is so largely experiential.

But I try: firstly, an embouchure, or mouth-muscle development is obtained under a master’s direction. Secondly, diaphragmatic breathing is developed so that the pressure can be made even for the lungs to provide air at its maximum possibility. This means 3 steps; stomach out and shoulders down, breathing in through the mouth with soldiers down, breathe in while raising and then lowering the shoulders. Try this on any instrument for extended breathing while playing.

Playing by cent on bassoon is like singing by cent is like playing Theremin by cent. Unless one has experience with such instruments and has spent years gaining performance experience, it would be difficult to judge, though. I measure pitch real time while playing. Sometimes I miss, but I get many more than I miss.

Ozan: If you allege to accomplish this incredible phenomenon, it truly deserves scientific analysis through pitch measurement tools in order that we may applaud you for the possession of such an incredible and undiscovered talent.
Johnny: If one measures only, the one is an accountant. A musician takes thing outside, certainly something Tom was alluding to. The music is always paramount in the concert. Perhaps it was always so.

Ozan: At the same time, it would not hurt to be doubly sure that (given the tautology of the procedure you described below) you indeed can sing "cents" and not just any other interval you fancy as a "cent"; which of course would say nothing about how such a demonstration reflects instrumental practice during the flow of music.

Johnny: Please check past posts. In fact, I remember Patrick Grant wrote to the list to say I had been tested with a synthesizer that was tuned to cents in his studio. Otherwise, you’ll have to use your own ears.

Ozan: Do please remember that I haven taken utmost care to show you the proper respect as a professor of the art of bassoon. But, given the ludicrousness when shown hard-data of parallel talks by those who religiously adhere to the Arel-Ezgi system, forgive me if I sound more than just a little sceptical!

Johnny: Is it really fair to beat me with the weapon for another? And why, oh why, when I ask for the religious symbolism to be avoided do you continue? Believing musicology can often be like believing the Vatican. Would that be okay for you? Not me.

Ozan: Feel free to dismiss the worthless opinions of he who does nought but occupy this productive tuning-list community with his jibber-jabber. I now retreat to dark slumbering shadows of silence.
Wizard of Oz.

Johnny: While one never likes to be doubted, this is all in hoping to share our great knowledge and experience so that we grow as people and as a community.

All best, Johnny
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

----- Original Message -----
From: Afmmjr@aol.com
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 26 Kasım 2006 Pazar 2:03
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a bit o' science (adaptively-sufficiently-pure vs. pre-determine

Ozan: I shall ignore certain snide remarks by you and delve right into the heart of the matter my dear Johnny:
You are now, it seems, a devoted disciple of Werckmeister III tuning for a historically-correct Bach interpretation, to which -given my ignorance on this topic- I have nothing to say except to wish you the best. Regarding its academic value, qualified scholars surely ought to scrutinize your observations. All in all, this does not seem to be the place to "advertise" them. Why not publish them in an academic paper?

Johnny: Please wake up, have some coffee,

I am already wide awake for my Fajr prayers. No need for coffee just yet.

haven’t you been reading about the impoverishment of academia, certainly as it applies to musicology?

I have a feeling as to what you seem to imply.

OK, I understand you are in line to get a doctorate, so….

Aren't you then?

And what is wrong with the august body that is this Tuning List, alternative and otherwise?

Nothing is wrong with this list if the intent is intellectual conversation bordering on the ultramundane. But if your agenda is to get the music community to grasp your propositions, you ought to write a research article with proper references.

Actually, my article “Bach’s Tuning” was published in issue #2 of Pitch (1982). You can probably hear my annual broadcast of Microtonal Bach on WKCR Radio in New York over the Internet on Christmas Day.

1982 ain't 2006. Have you not added anything to your original approach since then?

Ozan: On the other hand, when it comes to how "purely", or shall we say, "faithfully" one can imitate a tempered fixed-pitch instrument like the harpsichord or pianoforte via an unfretted string or wind instrument (say, your magick basoon) during live performance is a question of physical considerations. Granted, you may be an excelling executant, a dedicated musician who can accurately match the unison of a reference tuner (whom among us can't for that matter?), you may even commit to memory better than any of us all the pitch information a concert requires; but it is an extraordinary, nay, unheard of event if you can sound only those pitches of a keyboard tuned to WIII and deviate not from the course of this (or, for that matter, any other) temperament by even as much as a cent the whole time.

Johnny: Dear Ozan, I speak of no phenomenon. A talented musician awash in microtonal music has no choice but to match the tuning of the instrument of least tuning flexibility – the keyboard in this case. Other than retuning the instrument with subtle temporary modifications, I am only doing what any other musician would do in my milieu.

Having my hands sore trying to tune for the first time my bulky grandpiano, and failing miserably to sustain adjusted pitches, I can understand why such a profession as piano technicianship exists. It is easy for someone educated from the start to fully control the acoustics of his hand-held instrument gloat about his microtonal abilities...

Bassoon lesson for you: did you know that one cannot just blow and press keys? Of course, the same is true for most winds to some extent, but on the bassoon there is a HUGE difference in the results between informed “blowing” and just blowing. I suspect that if I was to try to explain exactly how I blow each and every note on the bassoon, it would be impossible to truly understand because it is so largely experiential.

My dear Johnny, you seem to forget that I amateurishly blow the Ney and understand the basic intonational dynamics involved with wind instruments. Surely, the bassoon could be no more difficult in this regard. Suffice it to say, I am at least partially informed. I shall not regale you with my saga of trombone blowing experience either.

But I try: firstly, an embouchure, or mouth-muscle development is obtained under a master’s direction. Secondly, diaphragmatic breathing is developed so that the pressure can be made even for the lungs to provide air at its maximum possibility. This means 3 steps; stomach out and shoulders down, breathing in through the mouth with soldiers down, breathe in while raising and then lowering the shoulders. Try this on any instrument for extended breathing while playing.

I'd rather not. My lungs would surely fail me.

Playing by cent on bassoon is like singing by cent is like playing Theremin by cent. Unless one has experience with such instruments and has spent years gaining performance experience, it would be difficult to judge, though. I measure pitch real time while playing. Sometimes I miss, but I get many more than I miss.

It is good to hear that you are human like the rest of us.

Ozan: If you allege to accomplish this incredible phenomenon, it truly deserves scientific analysis through pitch measurement tools in order that we may applaud you for the possession of such an incredible and undiscovered talent.
Johnny: If one measures only, the one is an accountant. A musician takes thing outside, certainly something Tom was alluding to. The music is always paramount in the concert. Perhaps it was always so.

I will take this to mean that the beauty of your musical performance, as well as many other performances by others, depends on purposefully deviating from the course of a given fixed tuning when it is agreeable to do so.

Ozan: At the same time, it would not hurt to be doubly sure that (given the tautology of the procedure you described below) you indeed can sing "cents" and not just any other interval you fancy as a "cent"; which of course would say nothing about how such a demonstration reflects instrumental practice during the flow of music.

Johnny: Please check past posts. In fact, I remember Patrick Grant wrote to the list to say I had been tested with a synthesizer that was tuned to cents in his studio. Otherwise, you’ll have to use your own ears.

I can discern cent differences alright. The issue is with performing them with flexible-pitch instruments including the human chant. Since you sometimes miss intended notes with the bassoon, is it not reasonable that your voice will fail you even more?

Ozan: Do please remember that I haven taken utmost care to show you the proper respect as a professor of the art of bassoon. But, given the ludicrousness when shown hard-data of parallel talks by those who religiously adhere to the Arel-Ezgi system, forgive me if I sound more than just a little sceptical!

Johnny: Is it really fair to beat me with the weapon for another? And why, oh why, when I ask for the religious symbolism to be avoided do you continue? Believing musicology can often be like believing the Vatican. Would that be okay for you? Not me.

How about the religiousness of your firm and steadfast devotion to Werckmeister III for Bach? Was it not you who had been talking about being a believer?

Ozan: Feel free to dismiss the worthless opinions of he who does nought but occupy this productive tuning-list community with his jibber-jabber. I now retreat to dark slumbering shadows of silence.
Wizard of Oz.

Johnny: While one never likes to be doubted, this is all in hoping to share our great knowledge and experience so that we grow as people and as a community.

All best, Johnny