Robert Bremner on violin tuning

Quotes from Early Music 7 (1979): Bremner was a Scots 18th century
music publisher, violinist (a pupil of Geminiani) and who knows what
else. His 'Thoughts on playing concert music' were published 1777.
Here from the section 'On pure

'A teacher instructs his pupil to make the half note [semitone] by
putting the finger close to the one it succeeds ... when the student
is once able to tune his instrument, the insufficiency of that rule
should be made known to him. ... this same first rule, by which all
the sharps are made too sharp, and the flats too flat, even if the
fingers are thick, is evidently the only one attended to by many of
the Dilettanti.'

'Tune can only be ascertained by comparing one sound to another ...
that performer who thinks he plays in tune, and yet whose ear cannot
refine all the concords with the same degree of certainty it can a
fifth or eighth, does but deceive himself and disappoint others.'

'Of ... the 5th and 8th, we shall ... suppose the student to be
master. The others are in like manner adjusted by comparing them with
one or other of the open strings, they being the tests by which Tune
can be best ascertained... In playing these examples, a slow and even
bow is recommended, as thereby the fingers will have time to move
backward and forward in search of truth'

(NB, these are *exercises* in pure intonation!)

'The note F is to be so stopped that the open string A may become a
perfect 3d to it... The 3d being thoroughly adjusted [ie as pure as
the fifth or octave] let the finger on F remain in its place, to which
let B flat be made a perfect 4th. ... If these two chords are in exact
tune, they fix the flat stops of two fingers on all the strings [i.e.
the minor second and minor third above the open strings].'

B flat is then tested against G an octave above the open string G and
the open string D, to produce a pure minor 3rd and 6th respectively.

'The major, or greater 6th, only now remains to be treated of, and may
be found thus: The note G tuned by its octave, to that G, tune a B a
major 3rd, which B is a major 6th to D.'

'As 3ds and 6ths are the most difficult for the ear to perfect, the
following example should be much practised; in the performing of
which, the finger should be made to glide ... from one semi-tone to
the other, till the ear be thoroughly satisfied, and well acquainted
with what is, and what is not tune.'

Violin examples: double stops D-A -> D-Bb -> D-Bnat, C-E -> C#-E

'That the eye may be satisfied as wwell as the ear, let the chords
below (double stops G-B, G-C) ... be put in exact tune, and if the
fingers stopping B and C are retained in their places, it may be seen,
that though C is but a semi-tone above B, yet those fingers are not
close to each other...'

'... if the student makes a point of giving due attention to tune on
all occasions, his ear will soon become master of it ... for if alone,
he has his own open strings for a test; and when with others, one or
other of their parts, to which he may be a concord, will be his guide.'

Perhaps this makes it more obvious to interpret the remarks of Quantz
quoted by Haynes.

"Every harpsichordist ... will also know that minor semitones like
D-D# and E-Eb, etc, differ by a comma, and therefore cause on this
instrument (unless the keys are split) certain intonation problems
with other instruments that play these notes in their correct
proportions. ... since these notes cannot always be avoided ... the
accompanist does well to put them in the middle or lower part of the
chord, or if such a note makes a minor third [eg Db above Bb], to omit
it altogether."

"... the other instruments play [notes such as Cb, D#] in their
correct ratios, whereas on the harpsichord they are merely tempered.
For this reason, it is better to omit them entirely [from the
harpsichord], rather than offend the ear."

~~~T~~~

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@...> wrote:
>
>
> Quotes from Early Music 7 (1979): Bremner was a Scots 18th century
> music publisher, violinist (a pupil of Geminiani) and who knows what
> else. His 'Thoughts on playing concert music' were published 1777.

He asks for both pure major thirds, which sounds like 1/4-comma
meantone, and pure minor thirds, which sounds like 1/3-comma meantone.
Also, he wants fat semitones. It seems as if some sort of adaptive
tuning in the vicinity of 2/7-comma is being discussed--this in 1777!
In any case, whatever he's talking about, it doesn't sound like either
1/6-comma or a well-temperament.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Dent" <stringph@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Quotes from Early Music 7 (1979): Bremner was a Scots 18th century
> > music publisher, violinist (a pupil of Geminiani) and who knows what
> > else. His 'Thoughts on playing concert music' were published 1777.
>
> He asks for both pure major thirds, which sounds like 1/4-comma
> meantone, and pure minor thirds, which sounds like 1/3-comma meantone.
> Also, he wants fat semitones. It seems as if some sort of adaptive
> tuning in the vicinity of 2/7-comma is being discussed--this in 1777!
> In any case, whatever he's talking about, it doesn't sound like either
> 1/6-comma or a well-temperament.
>

Indeed... It seems his ideas weren't systematized to the point of
giving an explicit and coherent total system of intonation. Which is
hardly surprising, given the complexity required to describe (say)
good string quartet intonation. For example if the open fifths are
tuned pure and a C taken below open E, it will be a comma too sharp
for the low G... though one cannot actually play these three notes at
the same time. (And there is some room for the fifths to be very
slightly narrowed in historical evidence.) Therefore I believe in
practice some intervals must have been significantly impure, at least
without extensive rehearsal.

However, it does indicate the importance that one experienced later
18th-century musician placed on being able to hear and play pure
intervals, as a basic method of training.

It would be interesting to see what range of fifths or thirds could be
accepted as pure on a violin - clearly there must be some range of
tolerance.

Those quotations are by no means the last word - I've got the 1991
Early Music article by Barbieri on 'Violin intonation' lined up as well.

~~~T~~~

Hi Gene, Tom et al.

Tom Dent wrote:
> Quotes from Early Music 7 (1979): Bremner was a Scots
18th century music publisher, violinist (a pupil of Geminiani)
and who knows what else. His 'Thoughts on playing concert
music' were published 1777.

Tom, thanks for this interesting quote. Just what I needed
about 39 years ago to bolster my arguments with my keyboard
teacher,that string players would always prefer using pure
intervals whenever practical ...!

Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> He asks for both pure major thirds, which sounds like
1/4-comma meantone, and pure minor thirds, which sounds
like 1/3-comma meantone.
> Also, he wants fat semitones. It seems as if some sort of
adaptive tuning in the vicinity of 2/7-comma is being
discussed--this in 1777!
> In any case, whatever he's talking about, it doesn't sound
like either 1/6-comma or a well-temperament.

Gene, that's an intriguing interpretation. I thought Bremner
was asking for 5-limit JI relative to the G-string. If so,
how is that adaptive?

Regards,
Yahya

Hi Tom,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Tom Dent wrote:
[snip]
For example if the open fifths are tuned pure and a C taken
below open E, it will be a comma too sharp for the low G...
though one cannot actually play these three notes at the same
time.

Nor can one take the triple-stop with the octave of the low G
on the D string, simultaneously with the C on the A string
and the E open on the E string. However, in playing a string
duet, there's nothing preventing another player from taking
the low G.

At which point we ask ourselves: How should the C sound?
If we take it a pure fourth above the G, the third CE will
be impure; if we take it a pure major third below the E, the
fourth GC will be impure.

However, Bremner requires that the "double stops G-B, G-C)
... be put in exact tune"; this instruction appears
immediately after playing the "double stops D-A -> D-Bb ->
D-Bnat, C-E -> C#-E". Yet he does not mention that the Cs of
these double-stops should be different!

This signifies one of the following:
(a) That he is unaware they're different. (Not likely.)

(b) That he wants both Cs to be a perfect fourth above the G.
(Hang the third, it's a comma sharp, so what?)

(c) That he wants both Cs to be a just major third below the
E. (Hang the fifth, etc.)

(d) That he wants them both the same, and tempered. (But I
don't think - from the text quoted - he's a fan of tempering
the violin intervals at all; though more recent players are.)

(e) That he wants them both different, and both pure to the
other sounding string. (Then smart composers would never
double-stop GC on the second violin with CE on the first,
since that would produce dissonant Cs. I could live with
that; it's common to blame the composer whenever there's an
intonation problem!)

Solutions (d) and (e) seem likeliest for Bremner, with (d)
being the classical approach.

FWIW, as a violin player (briefly), my intonation practice
aimed chiefly at producing the best consonances possible
under the circumstances: pure intervals when playing solo,
tempered when playing notes doubled by any other instrument,
or with a continuo, and with a distinct leaning towards purer
thirds than fourths.

Please note I'm not being prescriptive; rather, I'm just
recording my own biases.

> (And there is some room for the fifths to be very slightly
narrowed in historical evidence.) Therefore I believe in
practice some intervals must have been significantly impure,
at least without extensive rehearsal.

Given a single rehearsal, performers of flexible pitch
instruments usually align their tuning to the ensemble.
IME - YMMV.

> However, it does indicate the importance that one
experienced later 18th-century musician placed on being able
to hear and play pure intervals, as a basic method of training.

Absolutely! However, demanding facility in producing pure
intervals as part of practice does not automatically preclude
making another demand, to produce suitably tempered intervals
in ensemble performance. What did Bremner have to say on the
latter subject?

> It would be interesting to see what range of fifths or thirds
could be accepted as pure on a violin - clearly there must be
some range of tolerance.

Of course; and some student players of my acquaintance could
never achieve tolerable accuracy, which is exactly why we,
teachers and students alike, encouraged them to take up
woodwork ... To the best of my recollection, the acceptable
standard of tuning was that the student's sembibreve (whole
note) was in unison with the teacher's, without perceptible
beats. That suggests a tuning accuracy of a quarter of a Hertz
or better, doesn't it?

> Those quotations are by no means the last word - I've got
the 1991 Early Music article by Barbieri on 'Violin intonation'
lined up as well.

Please don't rush on - what did Bremner say about intonation
when playing in ensemble?

Regards,
Yahya