Bach's Tuning-Happy Thanksgiving!

Pre-thanksgiving

Re: Bach's Tuning

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@... wrote:
>
> Must the natural trumpeters play their A's so-and-so many cents below
> pure in the B-minor Mass Hosanna because keyboards have a narrow
> tempered fifth there?
>
> ~~~T~~~
>
> Yes, for it to have the maximum clarity. This music is contrapuntal.

Not sure this follows. (Forget for a minuts that the Hosanna begins
*monophonically*...)

JR: From my purview, it is even more important that the bass line anticipate the exact tuning that the harpsichord/keyboard will play. This kind of care makes the performance ever more brilliant. There are cultures that like to change intervals all the time in their music (e.g., Sapmi of northern Europe).

TD: The continuo part is not itself contrapuntal,
rather it consists of a bassline and chords, so why does it serve
counterpoint to have every instrument tuning every note from the
continuo? - and even when the continuo is silent, as it is at many points?

JR: Because it is all one piece. Prick it anywhere, does it not bleed? Sure, we each bring something different to music when we listen. But back then, without and chance or re-play through recordings, the opening motif/theme is what carries the listener throughout an entire piece. This is the same principal as writing an overture for an opera; the composer writes it last so as to “anticipate” the motifs/themes to be found later, and with more complexity.

TD: (BTW. No need to educate me about contrapuntal music. I have been
playing Bach on the harpsichord since age 13.)

JR: Sorry to offend. Truth to tell I don’t know much about you at all. I simply want to challenge what appears to me to be orthodox fallacy that has a long trail and refuses to give up the ghost…kind of like the present Republican party in the U.S.

T.D. You could use the argument either way: how better to ensure different
parts' audible independence, than by granting them independence to
determine their own tuning relative to the continuo?

JR: The fascinating thing is the tuning has that kaleidoscopic factor built in through the simple modulation through different keys, the very essence of the meaning of chromatic. Listening to the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue modulating through different keys is, to me, kaleidoscopic in Werckmeister III. Also, the harpsichord solo in Brandenburg #5 is richer for the tuning as it moves into differently pitched nooks and crannies. However, can a soloist put an intonational spin on the music? The answer is there is always more room for the gifted.

TD: And why do tempered, as opposed to pure, intervals, promote 'clarity'
anyway?

JR: By repetition, tempered intervals have the same clarity as intervals composed of only rational numbers. Repetition takes care of all. In modern society, is it not ass-backwards?; moderns trained to 12-tone ET hear just intervals as “flat” and “out of tune”? Conservatories insure that their graduates can hear irrational intervals with absolute certitude.

TD: Let's suppose we have a tonic D major chord, with the continuo playing
a quarter-comma flat A. Ringing out we have the *pure* A coming from
the bass instrument (string bass, cello, gamba, bassoon) overtones;
and the *flat* A coming from the righthand continuo chord. Which can,
or should, the trumpeter or singer tune with?

JR: First off, let me respond by saying that everything already written by Bach has all the necessary historic credentials to in fact be doable in Werckmeister III. And there are exceptions, just as Bach made exceptions for musical compositions featuring different religious faiths. When using an instrument with open strings and equal spaced frets, he wrote appropriately. When transferring a composer into a different key, Bach modulated with a purpose, maybe when there was not a purpose previously (as with Vivaldi in an extended meantone, where each key is the same). Papa Bach likely wrote meantone pieces for his son W.F. Bach (who seems to have preferred it based on my take). And this with all that Daniel added. So now you have entered me into the realm of speculation. (fun)

I don’t think there will be such a ringing barrage of overtones. I think, following Wercmeister’s instructions, and continuing on for later generations throughout Europe, the open strings are tuned to the tuning. It is different today, where modern string players do not use open strings, except for prepared circumstances. Baroque players would tune open strings to the temperament so they could be used for complex double- and triple-stops. Even their bows supported an easier ability to play all open strings at the same time. The bassoon was very “dark” in tone in Germany back then. It had to do with the heavy spine on the top blade of the double reed. That, and what is now called the “andy gump” embouchure emphasizes a tone that has less overtones. I think this is a non-issue.

TD: (Forget for a moment also that the trumpet in D naturally blows pure
overtones above the root...)

JR: Well, this is a good reason to raise the A; and this indeed what we have with sixth-comma meantone, a sharpened A, Kirnberger tunings, as well. So, if the trumpeter lipped down to manage the tuning, as my trumpeter did, it’s really just a matter of a set of facial shapes/muscle control/wind velocity for each of the tuned notes. The trumpeter must play the “right note” for the piece, not the “right note” for the instrument.

TD: Tempered chords in the continuo already create confusion by this clash
of overtones, and the skill of the tuner and performer is to keep that
confusion to a minimum. I believe it is simply going to sound better
if the upper parts choose what naively sounds right above the bass -
which will be a pure interval - rather than concentrating on
reinforcing the continuo's A, which clashes with the bass overtones.

JR: I hear you. Would you prefer the solo in Charles Ives’s The Unanswered Question – also a trumpeter – to change the intervallic relationships of his or her motif? I would not. Sure, one could argue ‘why not’? But I think the strongest music will be consistent throughout the piece. The whole principle of the Suite, beloved form of Bach, is that each movement is in a single key. The key must be sacrosanct in that situation. Changing around the pitch will dilute its integrity, in my experience.

> you would want to choose your pitch much more carefully than you
> obviously believe necessary, or even preferable.
>

TD: From where would you get the idea that my attitude to pitch is less
than 'careful'? By what mindreading is someone telling the world what
I 'obviously believe'?

JR: This was based on the difference between a player of flexible pitch and a keyboardist. The careful pre-hearing of pitch in playing a non-keyboard instrument seems to be unnecessary for a keyboardist. I am talking about care towards different matters.

TD: It takes *more* care and attention to achieve adaptively sufficiently
pure intonation above a bass, than to repeat the same pitch every time
your score has a given note. The former requires the performer to
remember what happens differently at different points in the score.

JR: I agree. But JS Bach is awfully fast most of the time. There would be little time to sit with the pitch. After sitting through a music service for Bach in the Leipzig church where he is now buried (he was moved), it is clear…this was not a good musical space. Nothing rings there.

But the Brandenburg in Cothen’s glass chamber, WOW! It’s now a museum where you take off your shoes and put on slippers. I was allowed to play some Bach on recorder and the sound was resplendent!

TD: On the other hand, it is easier to teach such adaptive intonation,
because all you need to hear is the pure intervals.

JR: I have never heard this tuning method work with Bach. Can you point me to a recording where I can listen? As a player, I play in pure just tuning quite often, plus mixing with other tunings. I just don’t think a musician wants/needs/deserves and extra time factor and attention focus on being adaptive. Yes, it does happen for the poetry of a moment. But that is a special case, not the integral tuning of the piece.

TD: Bass instruments (such as the bassoon!) have a special situation,
because they do have to be in unison with the keyboard continuo bass.
This is usually handled by having them sit next to the keyboard, which
they end up listening to ad nauseam during researsals...

~~~T~~~

JR: Maybe that’s why I play the alto recorder solos when they are available in AFMM concerts. When I play bassoon, I lead. Clearly, there are different ways to see these matters.

All best, Johnny
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