microtonal music on a 'standard' gtr

hi all,

i'm new here and after a quick delve into the archives couldn't find
what i was after so apologies if it's already there and i'm just
rubbish in my research.

i was wondering what possibilities were available for playing
microtonal music on a 'standard' gtr (not one with extra or different
fret positions) without the use of a slide or similar implement.

more specifically i've been playing around with alternative tunings
and stringings (glenn branca and sonic youth would be good indicators
of the techniques i've been trying so far) and particularly using
identically tuned strings which create a droney sound and have minor
tuning differences due to accuracy in tuning and different string
gauge etc.

i've mainly been playing with these techniques intuitively, just
finding combinations i like the sounds of, and wondered what resources
were available to help me develop a deeper understanding of what i'm
doing.

i'm interested in microtonal music so resources that used stringing
and/or tuning to open up these possibilities rather than carpentry
skills would be much appreciated.

thanks for your time.

murray

I've done limited stuff with retuning and I've come up with ways to
play at least a few chords and a few nice things that I like. I use
bar chords and jumping around by large amounts across the neck to get
different tuned notes. But for the most part, I've found it
frustrating and I am just wishing to get a microtonal instrument. I
haven't bothered really writing a song or recording all my "standard"
guitar microtonal experiments, though I enjoyed playing them.

-Aaron

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "dj_spleenbaby" <djspleenbaby@...> wrote:
>
> hi all,
>
> i'm new here and after a quick delve into the archives couldn't find
> what i was after so apologies if it's already there and i'm just
> rubbish in my research.
>
> i was wondering what possibilities were available for playing
> microtonal music on a 'standard' gtr (not one with extra or different
> fret positions) without the use of a slide or similar implement.
>
> more specifically i've been playing around with alternative tunings
> and stringings (glenn branca and sonic youth would be good indicators
> of the techniques i've been trying so far) and particularly using
> identically tuned strings which create a droney sound and have minor
> tuning differences due to accuracy in tuning and different string
> gauge etc.
>
> i've mainly been playing with these techniques intuitively, just
> finding combinations i like the sounds of, and wondered what resources
> were available to help me develop a deeper understanding of what i'm
> doing.
>
> i'm interested in microtonal music so resources that used stringing
> and/or tuning to open up these possibilities rather than carpentry
> skills would be much appreciated.
>
> thanks for your time.
>
> murray
>

Robert Rich had an article in 1/1, where he tuned the open strings
1 - 6 to 5/6 3/4 4/6 5/8 1/2 3/8. He then had a major scale using
the first 5 harmonics.

Joe

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "dj_spleenbaby" <djspleenbaby@...>
wrote:
>
> hi all,
>
> i'm new here and after a quick delve into the archives couldn't
find
> what i was after so apologies if it's already there and i'm just
> rubbish in my research.
>
> i was wondering what possibilities were available for playing
> microtonal music on a 'standard' gtr (not one with extra or
different
> fret positions) without the use of a slide or similar implement.
>
> more specifically i've been playing around with alternative tunings
> and stringings (glenn branca and sonic youth would be good
indicators
> of the techniques i've been trying so far) and particularly using
> identically tuned strings which create a droney sound and have
minor
> tuning differences due to accuracy in tuning and different string
> gauge etc.
>
> i've mainly been playing with these techniques intuitively, just
> finding combinations i like the sounds of, and wondered what
resources
> were available to help me develop a deeper understanding of what
i'm
> doing.
>
> i'm interested in microtonal music so resources that used stringing
> and/or tuning to open up these possibilities rather than carpentry
> skills would be much appreciated.
>
> thanks for your time.
>
> murray
>

Hi Joe and Murray,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote:
>
> Robert Rich had an article in 1/1, where he tuned the open strings
> 1 - 6 to 5/6 3/4 4/6 5/8 1/2 3/8. ...

Or put another way, the strings were at intervals
3/8 3/6 5/8 4/6 6/8 5/6
above an implied bass 1/1; and therefore at intervals
(1/1) 4/3 5/4 16/15 9/8 10/9
going upwards. Eg if the lowest string was E, the open strings were
tuned to just E A C# D E F#. Right?

That's a compass of only a just major ninth, from bottom to top open
string, instead of the usual two octaves. I just now tried the
experiment, tuning my flat-top down to these notes; of course, the
upper strings were rather slack, but still playable. Obviously I
should replace the 3/4 string (a G) with a D string, and the two top
strings (B and E) with two G strings.

> ... He then had a major scale using the first 5 harmonics.

Joe, you lost me there. Where did he have this scale?

Also, I must be missing something fundamental here, but how playable
is that? There's only the 6 open strings, and their octaves, that
belong to a just pentatonic with the lowest-term ratios
8/3 * (3/8 3/6 5/8 4/6 6/8 5/6)
or
1/1 4/3 5/3 16/9 2/1 20/9
or
1/9 * (9 12 15 16 18 20).

Playing all of these and their octaves gives the scale E A C# D E F#
A C# D E F# - a nice pentatonic segment of the just A major scale,
missing the second and seventh. The only useful harmonies there seem
to be I and IV; not even a V or ii, let alone a V7.

So stepping outside the just ratios, and playing all of the other
frets, gives a gamut comprising a set of justly-related tones and the
12-EDO semitones scales built on them.

Finally, does this help answer the question of creating micrtonal
scales on the standard guitar? The difference between the just
fourth 4/3 = 498 cents and the equal-tempered fourth 5 frets above
the low E = 500 cents is just 2 cents, surely at the limit of
usability for a micrtonal scale (few members of this list are sure
they even hear it in music at moderate to fast tempos). Still, that
could be just the kind of difference Murray was after. Other steps
do provide better contrast, eg the equal tempered major third at 400
cents above the A, with the just major third C#; but I can't see the
rationale for using this tuning for constructing a microtonal scale.

Worse, when I try to play with the guitar tuned like this, nothing
really works for me, either melodically or harmonically. That may
not be saying very much, cos I'm sure not a crash-hot guitar player,
but most of my licks sound out of tune on the higher strings, and
also sound weak (I think that may be because their compass is so
squashed together that the lower strings don't provide much resonance
for them).

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "dj_spleenbaby" wrote:
> >
> > hi all,
> >
> > i'm new here and after a quick delve into the archives couldn't
find what i was after so apologies if it's already there and i'm just
rubbish in my research.
> >
> > i was wondering what possibilities were available for playing
microtonal music on a 'standard' gtr (not one with extra or different
fret positions) without the use of a slide or similar implement.
> >
> > more specifically i've been playing around with alternative
tunings and stringings (glenn branca and sonic youth would be good
indicators of the techniques i've been trying so far) and
particularly using identically tuned strings which create a droney
sound and have minor tuning differences due to accuracy in tuning and
different string gauge etc.
> >
> > i've mainly been playing with these techniques intuitively, just
finding combinations i like the sounds of, and wondered what
resources were available to help me develop a deeper understanding of
what i'm doing.
> >
> > i'm interested in microtonal music so resources that used
stringing and/or tuning to open up these possibilities rather than
carpentry skills would be much appreciated.
> >
> > thanks for your time.

Murray,

One fairly obvious extension of your idea of tuning pairs of strings
in unison is to tune them some fraction of a semitone apart. Eg, if
the fraction is 1/2, you have quartertones, and any scale you can
build by selecting several of the 24 quartertones per octave.
Similarly, if the fraction is 1/3, you have sixth-tones, giving up to
24 notes per octave - or 36 if you tuned the top three strings just a
sixth-tone apart.

But a lot depends on what you're after. You mentioned Sonic Youth,
and the effects of slight mistunings, which I think is more about
sound quality than about the scale resources of microtones. Is that
where you're headed?

Regards,
Yahya

Sorry, I should have explained it more. The scale includes the open
strings, plus the harmonics over the 12th, 9th, 7th, & 5th frets.
Granted it's only 5-limit just intonation, so nothing is going to be
more than 18 cents or so away from a regular 12ET scale.

harmonics: 1 2 5 3 4
5/6 5/3 25/6 5/2 10/3
3/4 3/2 15/4 9/4 3/1
4/6 4/3 10/3 2/1 8/3
5/8 5/4 25/8 15/8 5/2
1/2 1/1 5/2 3/2 2/1
3/8 3/4 15/8 9/8 3/2

fret 0 12 9 7 5
string 1 A3 A4 C#5 E4 A5
string 2 G2 G3 B5 D4 G4
string 3 F2 F3 A5 C4 F4
string 4 E2 E3 G4+ B4 E4
string 5 C2 C3 E4 G3 C4
string 6 G1 G2 B3 D3 G3

The article says to tune where 1/2 = C2, which might make the
strings very slack. You can tune it with a computer and 'aptuner':

cents offset
A3 -16
G2 +1
F2 -2
E2 -14
C2
G1 +2

but on my electric guitar I ended up going with 1/2 = G2

E4 -16
D3 +1
C3 -2
B2 -14
G2
D2 +2

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "yahya_melb" <yahya@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Joe and Murray,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote:
> >
> > Robert Rich had an article in 1/1, where he tuned the open
strings
> > 1 - 6 to 5/6 3/4 4/6 5/8 1/2 3/8. ...
>
> Or put another way, the strings were at intervals
> 3/8 3/6 5/8 4/6 6/8 5/6
> above an implied bass 1/1; and therefore at intervals
> (1/1) 4/3 5/4 16/15 9/8 10/9
> going upwards. Eg if the lowest string was E, the open strings
were
> tuned to just E A C# D E F#. Right?
>
> That's a compass of only a just major ninth, from bottom to top
open
> string, instead of the usual two octaves. I just now tried the
> experiment, tuning my flat-top down to these notes; of course, the
> upper strings were rather slack, but still playable. Obviously I
> should replace the 3/4 string (a G) with a D string, and the two
top
> strings (B and E) with two G strings.
>
>
> > ... He then had a major scale using the first 5 harmonics.
>
> Joe, you lost me there. Where did he have this scale?
>
> Also, I must be missing something fundamental here, but how
playable
> is that? There's only the 6 open strings, and their octaves, that
> belong to a just pentatonic with the lowest-term ratios
> 8/3 * (3/8 3/6 5/8 4/6 6/8 5/6)
> or
> 1/1 4/3 5/3 16/9 2/1 20/9
> or
> 1/9 * (9 12 15 16 18 20).
>
> Playing all of these and their octaves gives the scale E A C# D E
F#
> A C# D E F# - a nice pentatonic segment of the just A major scale,
> missing the second and seventh. The only useful harmonies there
seem
> to be I and IV; not even a V or ii, let alone a V7.
>
> So stepping outside the just ratios, and playing all of the other
> frets, gives a gamut comprising a set of justly-related tones and
the
> 12-EDO semitones scales built on them.
>
> Finally, does this help answer the question of creating micrtonal
> scales on the standard guitar? The difference between the just
> fourth 4/3 = 498 cents and the equal-tempered fourth 5 frets above
> the low E = 500 cents is just 2 cents, surely at the limit of
> usability for a micrtonal scale (few members of this list are sure
> they even hear it in music at moderate to fast tempos). Still,
that
> could be just the kind of difference Murray was after. Other
steps
> do provide better contrast, eg the equal tempered major third at
400
> cents above the A, with the just major third C#; but I can't see
the
> rationale for using this tuning for constructing a microtonal
scale.
>
> Worse, when I try to play with the guitar tuned like this, nothing
> really works for me, either melodically or harmonically. That may
> not be saying very much, cos I'm sure not a crash-hot guitar
player,
> but most of my licks sound out of tune on the higher strings, and
> also sound weak (I think that may be because their compass is so
> squashed together that the lower strings don't provide much
resonance
> for them).
>
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "dj_spleenbaby" wrote:
> > >
> > > hi all,
> > >
> > > i'm new here and after a quick delve into the archives
couldn't
> find what i was after so apologies if it's already there and i'm
just
> rubbish in my research.
> > >
> > > i was wondering what possibilities were available for playing
> microtonal music on a 'standard' gtr (not one with extra or
different
> fret positions) without the use of a slide or similar implement.
> > >
> > > more specifically i've been playing around with alternative
> tunings and stringings (glenn branca and sonic youth would be good
> indicators of the techniques i've been trying so far) and
> particularly using identically tuned strings which create a droney
> sound and have minor tuning differences due to accuracy in tuning
and
> different string gauge etc.
> > >
> > > i've mainly been playing with these techniques intuitively,
just
> finding combinations i like the sounds of, and wondered what
> resources were available to help me develop a deeper understanding
of
> what i'm doing.
> > >
> > > i'm interested in microtonal music so resources that used
> stringing and/or tuning to open up these possibilities rather than
> carpentry skills would be much appreciated.
> > >
> > > thanks for your time.
>
>
> Murray,
>
> One fairly obvious extension of your idea of tuning pairs of
strings
> in unison is to tune them some fraction of a semitone apart. Eg,
if
> the fraction is 1/2, you have quartertones, and any scale you can
> build by selecting several of the 24 quartertones per octave.
> Similarly, if the fraction is 1/3, you have sixth-tones, giving up
to
> 24 notes per octave - or 36 if you tuned the top three strings
just a
> sixth-tone apart.
>
> But a lot depends on what you're after. You mentioned Sonic
Youth,
> and the effects of slight mistunings, which I think is more about
> sound quality than about the scale resources of microtones. Is
that
> where you're headed?
>
> Regards,
> Yahya
>

Hi.

a way to change the fretting of a normal guitar is to reducing the
lenght of the string while the frets remains in the usual place.

so putting a plastic (or other material) thing between the bridge
and the hole is possible to obtain a kind of 8-et, 9-et, 10-et and
11-et (but i'm sure that this is mathematically wrong and it could
be interesting if someone can explain what exactly happen)

I've tried with that strange 10-et and for example playing the frets
0 3 4 6 9 10 results in a pentatonic i like.

lorenzo

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "yahya_melb" <yahya@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Joe and Murray,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote:
> >
> > Robert Rich had an article in 1/1, where he tuned the open
strings
> > 1 - 6 to 5/6 3/4 4/6 5/8 1/2 3/8. ...
>
> Or put another way, the strings were at intervals
> 3/8 3/6 5/8 4/6 6/8 5/6
> above an implied bass 1/1; and therefore at intervals
> (1/1) 4/3 5/4 16/15 9/8 10/9
> going upwards. Eg if the lowest string was E, the open strings
were
> tuned to just E A C# D E F#. Right?
>
> That's a compass of only a just major ninth, from bottom to top
open
> string, instead of the usual two octaves. I just now tried the
> experiment, tuning my flat-top down to these notes; of course, the
> upper strings were rather slack, but still playable. Obviously I
> should replace the 3/4 string (a G) with a D string, and the two
top
> strings (B and E) with two G strings.
>
>
> > ... He then had a major scale using the first 5 harmonics.
>
> Joe, you lost me there. Where did he have this scale?
>
> Also, I must be missing something fundamental here, but how
playable
> is that? There's only the 6 open strings, and their octaves, that
> belong to a just pentatonic with the lowest-term ratios
> 8/3 * (3/8 3/6 5/8 4/6 6/8 5/6)
> or
> 1/1 4/3 5/3 16/9 2/1 20/9
> or
> 1/9 * (9 12 15 16 18 20).
>
> Playing all of these and their octaves gives the scale E A C# D E
F#
> A C# D E F# - a nice pentatonic segment of the just A major scale,
> missing the second and seventh. The only useful harmonies there
seem
> to be I and IV; not even a V or ii, let alone a V7.
>
> So stepping outside the just ratios, and playing all of the other
> frets, gives a gamut comprising a set of justly-related tones and
the
> 12-EDO semitones scales built on them.
>
> Finally, does this help answer the question of creating micrtonal
> scales on the standard guitar? The difference between the just
> fourth 4/3 = 498 cents and the equal-tempered fourth 5 frets above
> the low E = 500 cents is just 2 cents, surely at the limit of
> usability for a micrtonal scale (few members of this list are sure
> they even hear it in music at moderate to fast tempos). Still,
that
> could be just the kind of difference Murray was after. Other
steps
> do provide better contrast, eg the equal tempered major third at
400
> cents above the A, with the just major third C#; but I can't see
the
> rationale for using this tuning for constructing a microtonal
scale.
>
> Worse, when I try to play with the guitar tuned like this, nothing
> really works for me, either melodically or harmonically. That may
> not be saying very much, cos I'm sure not a crash-hot guitar
player,
> but most of my licks sound out of tune on the higher strings, and
> also sound weak (I think that may be because their compass is so
> squashed together that the lower strings don't provide much
resonance
> for them).
>
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "dj_spleenbaby" wrote:
> > >
> > > hi all,
> > >
> > > i'm new here and after a quick delve into the archives
couldn't
> find what i was after so apologies if it's already there and i'm
just
> rubbish in my research.
> > >
> > > i was wondering what possibilities were available for playing
> microtonal music on a 'standard' gtr (not one with extra or
different
> fret positions) without the use of a slide or similar implement.
> > >
> > > more specifically i've been playing around with alternative
> tunings and stringings (glenn branca and sonic youth would be good
> indicators of the techniques i've been trying so far) and
> particularly using identically tuned strings which create a droney
> sound and have minor tuning differences due to accuracy in tuning
and
> different string gauge etc.
> > >
> > > i've mainly been playing with these techniques intuitively,
just
> finding combinations i like the sounds of, and wondered what
> resources were available to help me develop a deeper understanding
of
> what i'm doing.
> > >
> > > i'm interested in microtonal music so resources that used
> stringing and/or tuning to open up these possibilities rather than
> carpentry skills would be much appreciated.
> > >
> > > thanks for your time.
>
>
> Murray,
>
> One fairly obvious extension of your idea of tuning pairs of
strings
> in unison is to tune them some fraction of a semitone apart. Eg,
if
> the fraction is 1/2, you have quartertones, and any scale you can
> build by selecting several of the 24 quartertones per octave.
> Similarly, if the fraction is 1/3, you have sixth-tones, giving up
to
> 24 notes per octave - or 36 if you tuned the top three strings
just a
> sixth-tone apart.
>
> But a lot depends on what you're after. You mentioned Sonic
Youth,
> and the effects of slight mistunings, which I think is more about
> sound quality than about the scale resources of microtones. Is
that
> where you're headed?
>
> Regards,
> Yahya
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "dj_spleenbaby" <djspleenbaby@...>
wrote:
>
> hi all,
>
> i'm new here and after a quick delve into the archives couldn't find
> what i was after so apologies if it's already there and i'm just
> rubbish in my research.
>
> i was wondering what possibilities were available for playing
> microtonal music on a 'standard' gtr (not one with extra or
different
> fret positions) without the use of a slide or similar implement.
>
> more specifically i've been playing around with alternative tunings
> and stringings (glenn branca and sonic youth would be good
indicators
> of the techniques i've been trying so far) and particularly using
> identically tuned strings which create a droney sound and have minor
> tuning differences due to accuracy in tuning and different string
> gauge etc.
>
> i've mainly been playing with these techniques intuitively, just
> finding combinations i like the sounds of, and wondered what
resources
> were available to help me develop a deeper understanding of what i'm
> doing.
>
> i'm interested in microtonal music so resources that used stringing
> and/or tuning to open up these possibilities rather than carpentry
> skills would be much appreciated.
>
> thanks for your time.
>
> murray
>

You will find a lot of related and interesting things at this site,
http://kronoson.station185.com/kronosonic/forum/index

It's a kind of limited method, but you can make scales with harmonics
tuning different ones from different strings to unisons (or not...).
Even the ones nearest to standard tuning will give funny results when
you play fretted notes, and you can use higher harmonics or strings
that aren't next to each other. With electric guitar it's also easy to
make difference tones from an amplifier, in a system or changing them
by bending strings.

Clark

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, lorenzo frizzera wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> a way to change the fretting of a normal guitar is to reducing the
> lenght of the string while the frets remains in the usual place.
>
> so putting a plastic (or other material) thing between the bridge
> and the hole is possible to obtain a kind of 8-et, 9-et, 10-et and
> 11-et (but i'm sure that this is mathematically wrong and it could
> be interesting if someone can explain what exactly happen)
>
> I've tried with that strange 10-et and for example playing the
frets 0 3 4 6 9 10 results in a pentatonic i like.
>
> lorenzo
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "yahya_melb" <yahya@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Joe and Murray,
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote:
> > >
> > > Robert Rich had an article in 1/1, where he tuned the open
strings 1 - 6 to 5/6 3/4 4/6 5/8 1/2 3/8. ...
> >
> > Or put another way, the strings were at intervals
> > 3/8 3/6 5/8 4/6 6/8 5/6
> > above an implied bass 1/1; and therefore at intervals
> > (1/1) 4/3 5/4 16/15 9/8 10/9
> > going upwards. Eg if the lowest string was E, the open strings
> were
> > tuned to just E A C# D E F#. Right?

[snip]

Hi Lorenzo,

Yep. We went down that route several months - maybe a year? - ago.
At first I thought I had a different EDO, but a prod from someone -
either Paul Erlich or Gene Ward Smith, I think - soon woke me up.
It's definitely neither a just tuning nor an EDO; it's not an EDL
(equal division of length) either. The maths is not rocket science,
but it's also rather boring, compared with the novelty of the
_sounds_ the tuning makes. (If you want to delve into the maths, we
could take it to tuning-math.)

Tuned normally, the guitar has the bridge at twice the 12th fret
length. From memory, I found putting the new bridge at twice the
9th, 10th and 11th fret positions the most practical, and using twice
the 10th fret length for the string produced the most pleasing
scale. I intended to make time to play around with it some more;
also putting the octave (halfway point on the string) exactly halfway
between successive frets.

So this is certainly another way that Murray can get a microtonal
tuning from an ordinary guitar with minimum equipment and
engineering. Thanks for the reminder!

Regards,
Yahya

just had time to have a proper read through people's responses.

some great suggestions though i clearly would benefit from diving into
the theory a bit more.

thanks for everyone's help
murray