farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic?

Hi

Thanks to chris for good works about history of tuning background in
midlle east.

But , firstly , farabi and ibn-sina were , are and will be Persian,
lived in persia during The Samanid dynasty ( although most people think
that they are arab or ....and I must remind that for example turkestan
was a part of Persia in The Samanid dynasty) .please see this links in
britannica online ency. :

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9011433

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/learning/ibnsina.html
for ibn-sina

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farabi ,

http://www.iranchamber.com/personalities/farabi/farabi.php and

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/learning/farabi.html
for farabi.

So please , if possible , and after your certainty , correct some
sentences in your works
<http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Ibn-Sina_Stifel_&_Zarlino.htm> ,
such as :

In the Istitutioni harmoniche (1573), Zarlino acknowledges a theoretical
contribution by the Arabian physician, scientist, and music theorist
Avicenna, or Ibn Sina (980-1037),

I'm sorry about historical dominance rule of Arabic culture on Persia
and farsi language , all the Persian scientists seems to be Arab )-;

Please consider that I'm nationalist in all persian historical and
cultural aspects but not in politics and traditional music !!! (-;

Shaahin Mohaajeri

Tombak Player & Researcher , Microtonal Composer

My web site , click picture : <http://240edo.tripod.com/index.html>

My tombak musics in Rhythmweb: www.rhythmweb.com/gdg
<http://www.rhythmweb.com/gdg>

My articles in Harmonytalk:

- www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html
<http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html>

- www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html
<http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html>

My article in DrumDojo:

www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm
<http://www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm>

My musics in Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :

- A composition based on a folk melody of Shiraz region, in shur-dastgah
by Mohajeri Shahin <http://www.xenharmony.org/mp3/shaahin/shur.mp3>

- An experiment in Iranian homayun and chahargah modes by Mohajeri
Shahin <http://www.xenharmony.org/mp3/shaahin/homayun.mp3>

Shaahin,

You're welcome.

Perhaps we should also take D'Erlanger to task for not
naming the second portion of his Volume II _La Musique
Persane_, and the authors of countless other books that
have the words "Arabia," "Arabic," or "Arab," in their
titles, which acknowledge or imply Ibn Sina's political
identity, but never mention his cultural identity.

This is where I stand in _Musical Mathematics: A Practice
in the Mathematics of Tuning Instruments and Analyzing
Scales_:

******************************

Born in 980 at Afshana, near Bukhara, and buried in
Hamadan in 1037, Ibn Sina spent his entire life within
the territory of the former Persian Empire. The most
celebrated philosopher of the Islamic world, Ibn Sina
wrote most of his works in Arabic, the _lingua franca_ of
the Arabian Empire. However, because Ibn Sina was a
theorist of Persian descent, we must now examine
modern Persian music to determine the historical
significance of his 17-tone scale and his 13-limit ratios.

******************************

Upon publication of my *entire* work, my readers will
have an opportunity to examine both sides of this issue.

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.chrysalis-foundation.org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mohajeri Shahin" <shahinm@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> Thanks to chris for good works about history of tuning background
in
> midlle east.
>
>
>
> But , firstly , farabi and ibn-sina were , are and will be
Persian,
> lived in persia during The Samanid dynasty ( although most people
think
> that they are arab or ....and I must remind that for example
turkestan
> was a part of Persia in The Samanid dynasty) .please see this
links in
> britannica online ency. :
>
> http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9011433
>
> and
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna
>
>
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/learning/ibnsina.h
tml
> for ibn-sina
>
> and
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farabi ,
>
> http://www.iranchamber.com/personalities/farabi/farabi.php and
>
>
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/learning/farabi.ht
ml
> for farabi.
>
>
>
> So please , if possible , and after your certainty , correct some
> sentences in your works
> <http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Ibn-
Sina_Stifel_&_Zarlino.htm> ,
> such as :
>
> In the Istitutioni harmoniche (1573), Zarlino acknowledges a
theoretical
> contribution by the Arabian physician, scientist, and music
theorist
> Avicenna, or Ibn Sina (980-1037),
>
> I'm sorry about historical dominance rule of Arabic culture on
Persia
> and farsi language , all the Persian scientists seems to be Arab )-
;
>
> Please consider that I'm nationalist in all persian historical and
> cultural aspects but not in politics and traditional music !!! (-
;
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Shaahin Mohaajeri
>
> Tombak Player & Researcher , Microtonal Composer
>
> My web site , click picture :
<http://240edo.tripod.com/index.html>
>
> My tombak musics in Rhythmweb: www.rhythmweb.com/gdg
> <http://www.rhythmweb.com/gdg>
>
> My articles in Harmonytalk:
>
> - www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html
> <http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html>
>
> - www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html
> <http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html>
>
> My article in DrumDojo:
>
> www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm
> <http://www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm>
>
> My musics in Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :
>
> - A composition based on a folk melody of Shiraz region, in shur-
dastgah
> by Mohajeri Shahin
<http://www.xenharmony.org/mp3/shaahin/shur.mp3>
>
> - An experiment in Iranian homayun and chahargah modes by Mohajeri
> Shahin <http://www.xenharmony.org/mp3/shaahin/homayun.mp3>
>

You could be cursed by many Turks for taking refuge in Arabicism. Rauf Yekta
and others went to extreme ends to claim Al-Farabi, Ibn Sina and Safi Al-Din
for their own:

"It is important to know that Islam has fused Arabs, Persians and Turks into
one group like a nation and the language of these nations did not at all
differ. Therefore, a Turk like Al-Farabi wrote his works in Arabic. In the
time of Al-Farabi, the language of Turks was not well developed; the
language of scholars was Arabic first, Persian second. For that reason,
almost all the Turkish writers wrote their works in either Arabic or
Persian."

Yekta, 1922

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cris Forster" <cris.forster@comcast.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 17 Haziran 2006 Cumartesi 13:43
Subject: [tuning] Re: farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic?

> Shaahin,
>
> You're welcome.
>
> Perhaps we should also take D'Erlanger to task for not
> naming the second portion of his Volume II _La Musique
> Persane_, and the authors of countless other books that
> have the words "Arabia," "Arabic," or "Arab," in their
> titles, which acknowledge or imply Ibn Sina's political
> identity, but never mention his cultural identity.
>
> This is where I stand in _Musical Mathematics: A Practice
> in the Mathematics of Tuning Instruments and Analyzing
> Scales_:
>
> ******************************
>
> Born in 980 at Afshana, near Bukhara, and buried in
> Hamadan in 1037, Ibn Sina spent his entire life within
> the territory of the former Persian Empire. The most
> celebrated philosopher of the Islamic world, Ibn Sina
> wrote most of his works in Arabic, the _lingua franca_ of
> the Arabian Empire. However, because Ibn Sina was a
> theorist of Persian descent, we must now examine
> modern Persian music to determine the historical
> significance of his 17-tone scale and his 13-limit ratios.
>
> ******************************
>
> Upon publication of my *entire* work, my readers will
> have an opportunity to examine both sides of this issue.
>
> Cris Forster, Music Director
> www.chrysalis-foundation.org
>
>
>

You could be cursed by many Turks for advocating Persian nationalism in Maqam Music. Yekta says:

"One must not, after scrutinizing the works of these writers (Al-Farabi, Ibn Sina, Safi Al-Din, Shirazi, Meragi, Ladiki, Molla Djami) and observing that some are written in Arabic and some in Persian, imagine that they belong to diverse schools and that Arabic and Persian musics are different. The German scholar Kiesewetter is a person who made just such as mistake. In his work entitled `Die Musik Der Araber`, he committed several errors assuming that the music of Arab and Persian nations showed difference. If we were to reject these claims, we would have diverged from our main topic, so we shall not persist on this matter."

Yekta, 1922
----- Original Message -----
From: Mohajeri Shahin
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 17 Haziran 2006 Cumartesi 9:51
Subject: [tuning] farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic?

Hi

Thanks to chris for good works about history of tuning background in midlle east.

But , firstly , farabi and ibn-sina were , are and will be Persian, lived in persia during The Samanid dynasty ( although most people think that they are arab or ….and I must remind that for example turkestan was a part of Persia in The Samanid dynasty) .please see this links in britannica online ency. :

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9011433

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/learning/ibnsina.html for ibn-sina

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farabi ,

http://www.iranchamber.com/personalities/farabi/farabi.php and

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/learning/farabi.html for farabi.

So please , if possible , and after your certainty , correct some sentences in your works , such as :

In the Istitutioni harmoniche (1573), Zarlino acknowledges a theoretical contribution by the Arabian physician, scientist, and music theorist Avicenna, or Ibn Sina (980–1037),

I'm sorry about historical dominance rule of Arabic culture on Persia and farsi language , all the Persian scientists seems to be Arab )-;

Please consider that I'm nationalist in all persian historical and cultural aspects but not in politics and traditional music !!! (-;

Shaahin Mohaajeri

This is where I stand in _Musical Mathematics: A
Practice in the Mathematics of Tuning Instruments
and Analyzing Scales_:

******************************

Born c. 870 in the town of Wasij, in the district of
the city of Farab, Turkestan, and died c. 950 in
Damascus, Syria, Abu Nasr Al-Farabi was a
renowned philosopher and teacher of Turkish
descent. Although music historians will probably
never establish a direct connection between Al-
Farabi's tunbur tuning in Figure 70 and the tuning
of the modern Turkish tunbur in Figure 80, the
possibility that such a nexus exists is truly amazing.

******************************

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.chrysalis-foundation.org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> You could be cursed by many Turks for taking refuge in Arabicism.
Rauf Yekta
> and others went to extreme ends to claim Al-Farabi, Ibn Sina and
Safi Al-Din
> for their own:
>
> "It is important to know that Islam has fused Arabs, Persians and
Turks into
> one group like a nation and the language of these nations did not
at all
> differ. Therefore, a Turk like Al-Farabi wrote his works in
Arabic. In the
> time of Al-Farabi, the language of Turks was not well developed;
the
> language of scholars was Arabic first, Persian second. For that
reason,
> almost all the Turkish writers wrote their works in either Arabic
or
> Persian."
>
> Yekta, 1922
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cris Forster" <cris.forster@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 17 Haziran 2006 Cumartesi 13:43
> Subject: [tuning] Re: farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic?
>
>
> > Shaahin,
> >
> > You're welcome.
> >
> > Perhaps we should also take D'Erlanger to task for not
> > naming the second portion of his Volume II _La Musique
> > Persane_, and the authors of countless other books that
> > have the words "Arabia," "Arabic," or "Arab," in their
> > titles, which acknowledge or imply Ibn Sina's political
> > identity, but never mention his cultural identity.
> >
> > This is where I stand in _Musical Mathematics: A Practice
> > in the Mathematics of Tuning Instruments and Analyzing
> > Scales_:
> >
> > ******************************
> >
> > Born in 980 at Afshana, near Bukhara, and buried in
> > Hamadan in 1037, Ibn Sina spent his entire life within
> > the territory of the former Persian Empire. The most
> > celebrated philosopher of the Islamic world, Ibn Sina
> > wrote most of his works in Arabic, the _lingua franca_ of
> > the Arabian Empire. However, because Ibn Sina was a
> > theorist of Persian descent, we must now examine
> > modern Persian music to determine the historical
> > significance of his 17-tone scale and his 13-limit ratios.
> >
> > ******************************
> >
> > Upon publication of my *entire* work, my readers will
> > have an opportunity to examine both sides of this issue.
> >
> > Cris Forster, Music Director
> > www.chrysalis-foundation.org
> >
> >
> >
>

For Allah's sake, Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi and Ibn Sina were great muslim
scholars under the auspices of the Mutazilah. Does it matter whether they
were Arabic, Turkish or Persian?

There is no such thing as nationalism concerning the music of the middle
east (that we like to refer to as "Maqam Music") until the late 19th
century. Please desist from explaining history in terms of modernist
jargons.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cris Forster" <cris.forster@comcast.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 17 Haziran 2006 Cumartesi 17:08
Subject: [tuning] Re: farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic? / no apology
necessary

> This is where I stand in _Musical Mathematics: A
> Practice in the Mathematics of Tuning Instruments
> and Analyzing Scales_:
>
> ******************************
>
> Born c. 870 in the town of Wasij, in the district of
> the city of Farab, Turkestan, and died c. 950 in
> Damascus, Syria, Abu Nasr Al-Farabi was a
> renowned philosopher and teacher of Turkish
> descent. Although music historians will probably
> never establish a direct connection between Al-
> Farabi's tunbur tuning in Figure 70 and the tuning
> of the modern Turkish tunbur in Figure 80, the
> possibility that such a nexus exists is truly amazing.
>
> ******************************
>
> Cris Forster, Music Director
> www.chrysalis-foundation.org
>

Please refrain from citing translated texts of Al-
Farabi, and detailed analysis of the meaning of
such texts, by someone you regard curse-worthy.

Surely, your own translations, and historic/historical
contexts of Al-Farabi's works, will do.

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.chrysalis-foundation.org

Cris Forster's post from September 11, 2005:

******************************

Re: To Mr. Ozan Yarman -- A Respectful Request

Dear Mr. Yarman

...and Cris Forster's http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-
Farabi's_'Uds.htm)

would have made me very happy.

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

[Footnote] 22

When the intervals given by Alpharabius more than a millenium ago
are scrutinized, the fact that mujannab is explained from smallest
to largest by the ratios 15/14, 14/13, 13/12, 12/11, 11/10 (compare
with the values given in Appendix 12) vindicates our observation in
that regard. (Cf. Prof. Yalçýn Tura, "Türk Musýkisinin Meseleleri",
Pan Publishing House, Istanbul, 1988, p. 107, and Cris Forster's
http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi's_'Uds.htm)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:
> Dear Cris Forster,
>
> While I respect your scientific contribution to musical theory and
am honored by the attention you have shown in my studies, I
nevertheless think that you are nit-picking in your evaluation of a
simple footnote.
>
> Given your unfamiliarity with the usage of the Turkish language,
it has been a regrettable misunderstanding on your part to assume
that I was referring to Yalcin Tura as the author of your webpage.
>
> In order alleviate the matter, let me translate the text in
English to all our readers for clarity:
>
> [Footnote] 22
>
> When the intervals given by Alpharabius more than a millenium ago
are scrutinized, the fact that mujannab is explained from smallest
to largest by the ratios 15/14, 14/13, 13/12, 12/11, 11/10 (compare
with the values given in Appendix 12) vindicates our observation in
that regard. (Cf. Prof. Yalçýn Tura, "Türk Musýkisinin Meseleleri",
Pan Publishing House, Istanbul, 1988, p. 107, AND
http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi's_'Uds.htm)
>
>
>
> Although further detail about your webpage here is appreciable, it
is not necessary or obligatory.
>
> If for some reason you deem that the material you released in your
website is insufficient as basis to be referenced by the
acknowledged method of conferring, then I kindly request that you
send a full copy of your book entitled:
>
>
> Musical Mathematics: A Practice in the Mathematics of Tuning
Instruments and Analyzing Scales_.
>
>
> To my address:
>
> Vanikoy str. nr. 59
> Uskudar/Istanbul
> TURKEY
>
> In order that I may diligently make full references to it in my
future studies. I will be more than pleased to refer to its numerous
sections on Maqam Music in my dissertation if you deem I should have
it.
>
> I trust my request will be easier for you to fulfil as compared to
my actually finding and paying for the book in Turkey.
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan Yarman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cris Forster
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 11 Eylül 2005 Pazar 0:21
> Subject: [tuning] To Mr. Ozan Yarman -- A Respectful Request
>
>
> Dear Mr. Yarman:
>
> The following Google Listing:
>
> ******************************
>
> [PDF] "Türk Müziði'nin Mikrotonal Makam Kuramý – Bilgisayar
Tabanlý
> Ses ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat 2. Makamlar ve Seyir:
> Kuramsal ve eðitsel düzlemde, yukarýda anýlan nedenlerden ...
> dolayýsýyla, 1.5003 sayýsýný kesirli olarak ifade ederken,
öncelikle
> 3/2 ...
>
> www.notayaz.net/makale/yarmantez2.pdf
>
> - Supplemental Result - Similar pages
>
> ******************************
>
> functions as a hyperlink to your PDF document entitled:
>
> ******************************
>
> "Türk Müziði'nin Mikrotonal Makam Kuramý – Bilgisayar Tabanlý
Ses-
> Kümesel Çözümlemeler Iþýðýnda, Tarihsel Nazariyat
Çalýþmalarýnýn
> Karþýlaþtýrmalý Bir Ýncelemesi" Baþlýklý 1 Doktora Tezime
Ýliþkin
> Ýzleme Raporu II
>
> ******************************
>
> Page 14 includes the following footnote reference:
>
> ******************************
>
> [Footnote] 22
>
> Al-Farabi'nin binyýldan önce verdiði aralýklara bakýldýðýnda,
> mücenneb'in küçükten büyüðe doðru 15/14, 14/13, 13/12, 12/11,
11/10
> (EK12'deki deðerlerle karþýlaþtýrýnýz) oranlarýyla açýklanýþý,
bu
> yöndeki görüþümüzü doðrulamaktadýr (Bkz. Prof. Yalçýn
Tura, "Türk
> Musýkisinin Meseleleri", Pan Yayýncýlýk, Ýstanbul, 1988, s. 107
ve
> http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi's_'Uds.htm)
>
> ******************************
>
> While I am very pleased that you refer the reader to my webpage:
>
> ******************************
>
> http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi's_'Uds.htm
>
> ******************************
>
> I do *not* understand the parenthetical inclusion of
> "Prof. Yalçýn Tura."
>
> I am the writer of a manuscript entitled:
>
> _Musical Mathematics: A Practice in the Mathematics of Tuning
> Instruments and Analyzing Scales_.
>
> Please visit
>
> ******************************
>
> http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/musical_mathematics.htm
>
> ******************************
>
> to read the Table of Contents of this work.
>
> Your Footnote 22 refers to an excerpt from _Musical Mathematics_
> that consists of 19 manuscript pages.
>
> Scholars usually give credit to writers who release substantial
> amounts of text.
>
> For example, at the website:
>
> ******************************
>
> http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/arablute/arablute.htm
>
> ******************************
>
> Joseph L. Monzo
>
> credits a hyperlink to the identical webpage
>
> in the following manner:
>
> ******************************
>
> Forster, Cris. 2004. essay on al-Farabi's lute fretting.
>
> ******************************
>
> With all due respect, please consider a revision of your
Footnote 22
> to include my name as the writer of --
>
> http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi's_'Uds.htm
>
> Thank you for your consideration.
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Cris Forster, Music Director
> www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> For Allah's sake, Al-Kindi, Al-Farabi and Ibn Sina were great
muslim
> scholars under the auspices of the Mutazilah. Does it matter
whether they
> were Arabic, Turkish or Persian?
>
> There is no such thing as nationalism concerning the music of the
middle
> east (that we like to refer to as "Maqam Music") until the late
19th
> century. Please desist from explaining history in terms of
modernist
> jargons.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cris Forster" <cris.forster@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 17 Haziran 2006 Cumartesi 17:08
> Subject: [tuning] Re: farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic? / no
apology
> necessary
>
>
> > This is where I stand in _Musical Mathematics: A
> > Practice in the Mathematics of Tuning Instruments
> > and Analyzing Scales_:
> >
> > ******************************
> >
> > Born c. 870 in the town of Wasij, in the district of
> > the city of Farab, Turkestan, and died c. 950 in
> > Damascus, Syria, Abu Nasr Al-Farabi was a
> > renowned philosopher and teacher of Turkish
> > descent. Although music historians will probably
> > never establish a direct connection between Al-
> > Farabi's tunbur tuning in Figure 70 and the tuning
> > of the modern Turkish tunbur in Figure 80, the
> > possibility that such a nexus exists is truly amazing.
> >
> > ******************************
> >
> > Cris Forster, Music Director
> > www.chrysalis-foundation.org
> >
>

I don't regard you curse-worthy at all. In fact, I do remember having
revised the footnote in question according to your wishes. It is rather the
vulpine manner in which you seem to have reserved Al-Farabi for Turks and
Ibn Sina for Persians exclusively to Allah knows what end that I find full
of ruses. I fear, such crafty scheming will most likely hamper the
understanding of Maqam Music rather than elucidate matters. Up until the
late 19th century Turks, Arabs, Persians - regardless of social class and
regional diversity - all played the same music based more or less on the
same theory, which was not in the least under the monopoly of Turks,
Persians or Arabs.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cris Forster" <cris.forster@comcast.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 17 Haziran 2006 Cumartesi 18:46
Subject: [tuning] Re: farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic? / no apology
necessary

Please refrain from citing translated texts of Al-
Farabi, and detailed analysis of the meaning of
such texts, by someone you regard curse-worthy.

Surely, your own translations, and historic/historical
contexts of Al-Farabi's works, will do.

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.chrysalis-foundation.org

Cris Forster's post from September 11, 2005:

******************************

Re: To Mr. Ozan Yarman -- A Respectful Request

Dear Mr. Yarman

...and Cris Forster's http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-
Farabi's_'Uds.htm)

would have made me very happy.

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org

[Footnote] 22

When the intervals given by Alpharabius more than a millenium ago
are scrutinized, the fact that mujannab is explained from smallest
to largest by the ratios 15/14, 14/13, 13/12, 12/11, 11/10 (compare
with the values given in Appendix 12) vindicates our observation in
that regard. (Cf. Prof. Yal��n Tura, "T�rk Mus�kisinin Meseleleri",
Pan Publishing House, Istanbul, 1988, p. 107, and Cris Forster's
http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi's_'Uds.htm)

Relevance (reverence) in one area of study does
not mean irrelevance (irreverence) in another area
of study.

Every generation of historians and theorists leaves
something undone, which means that the next
generation will further our knowledge,
understanding, and wisdom.

There is no alternative for intergenerational growth
and respect.

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.chrysalis-foundation.org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> I don't regard you curse-worthy at all. In fact, I do remember
having
> revised the footnote in question according to your wishes. It is
rather the
> vulpine manner in which you seem to have reserved Al-Farabi for
Turks and
> Ibn Sina for Persians exclusively to Allah knows what end that I
find full
> of ruses. I fear, such crafty scheming will most likely hamper the
> understanding of Maqam Music rather than elucidate matters. Up
until the
> late 19th century Turks, Arabs, Persians - regardless of social
class and
> regional diversity - all played the same music based more or less
on the
> same theory, which was not in the least under the monopoly of
Turks,
> Persians or Arabs.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cris Forster" <cris.forster@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 17 Haziran 2006 Cumartesi 18:46
> Subject: [tuning] Re: farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic? / no
apology
> necessary
>
>
> Please refrain from citing translated texts of Al-
> Farabi, and detailed analysis of the meaning of
> such texts, by someone you regard curse-worthy.
>
> Surely, your own translations, and historic/historical
> contexts of Al-Farabi's works, will do.
>
> Cris Forster, Music Director
> www.chrysalis-foundation.org
>
>
>
> Cris Forster's post from September 11, 2005:
>
> ******************************
>
>
> Re: To Mr. Ozan Yarman -- A Respectful Request
>
>
> Dear Mr. Yarman
>
> ...and Cris Forster's http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-
> Farabi's_'Uds.htm)
>
> would have made me very happy.
>
> Cris Forster, Music Director
> www.Chrysalis-Foundation.org
>
>
> [Footnote] 22
>
> When the intervals given by Alpharabius more than a millenium ago
> are scrutinized, the fact that mujannab is explained from smallest
> to largest by the ratios 15/14, 14/13, 13/12, 12/11, 11/10 (compare
> with the values given in Appendix 12) vindicates our observation in
> that regard. (Cf. Prof. Yalçýn Tura, "Türk Musýkisinin Meseleleri",
> Pan Publishing House, Istanbul, 1988, p. 107, and Cris Forster's
> http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi's_'Uds.htm)
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>. Up until the
> late 19th century Turks, Arabs, Persians - regardless of social
class and
> regional diversity - all played the same music based more or less on the
> same theory, which was not in the least under the monopoly of Turks,
> Persians or Arabs.
>

Not to mention a large number of Greeks, Armenians, Southern Slavs,
Albanians, Sinti/Roma, Jews, and other Christians from a variety of
ethnic backgrounds. We're talking about a cosmopolitian musical
culture and it is very difficult from our perspective to imagine both
the breadth of that culture and the subtlety of variations, some of
which may have been local and/or ethnic and/or sectarian in origin,
but any dividing lines in such a heated environment would surely have
been under constant transgression and redefinition.

A friend of mine is a lute and oud scholar. Like most anyone with a
western background, I had just assumed that here in Europe was the
lute, with frets and its notated tradition, and "there" in Islamdom
(Hodgson's term) was the oud, without frets and and aurally
transmitted/improvised rather than written-down repertoire. In fact, I
have learned from my friend, every possible mixture between these two
extremes seems to have existed, and in substantial rather than casual
ways, and it further appears that the greater variety was taking place
in those environments where variety was simply built-in. The
contributions of non-muslim, non-Turkish, non-Arabic, non-Persian
musicians in the Islamic courts and urban high cultures was welcomed
and substantial. Again, our imagination is probably failing us.

DJW

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "djwolf_frankfurt" <djwolf@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@> wrote:
> >. Up until the
> > late 19th century Turks, Arabs, Persians - regardless of social
> class and
> > regional diversity - all played the same music based more or
less on the
> > same theory, which was not in the least under the monopoly of
Turks,
> > Persians or Arabs.
> >
>
> Not to mention a large number of Greeks, Armenians, Southern Slavs,
> Albanians, Sinti/Roma, Jews, and other Christians from a variety of
> ethnic backgrounds. We're talking about a cosmopolitian musical
> culture and it is very difficult from our perspective to imagine
both
> the breadth of that culture and the subtlety of variations, some of
> which may have been local and/or ethnic and/or sectarian in origin,
> but any dividing lines in such a heated environment would surely
have
> been under constant transgression and redefinition.
>
> A friend of mine is a lute and oud scholar. Like most anyone with a
> western background, I had just assumed that here in Europe was the
> lute, with frets and its notated tradition, and "there" in Islamdom
> (Hodgson's term) was the oud, without frets and and aurally
> transmitted/improvised rather than written-down repertoire. In
fact, I
> have learned from my friend, every possible mixture between these
two
> extremes seems to have existed, and in substantial rather than
casual
> ways, and it further appears that the greater variety was taking
place
> in those environments where variety was simply built-in. The
> contributions of non-muslim, non-Turkish, non-Arabic, non-Persian
> musicians in the Islamic courts and urban high cultures was
welcomed
> and substantial. Again, our imagination is probably failing us.
>
> DJW
>

As a student of musical instrument construction and
tunings, I am at a loss to explain precision and
consistency over many hundreds of years (in
civilizations throughout the world) except to venture
that oral and aural traditions are more exact,
inventive, and tolerant than written and academic
traditions.

Cris

To all

What I claimed was a historic subject. Never mind to be cursed by many
Turkish or arabs brother and sister. Historical documents are very clear
and not very important for me a claim by someone that all are fused by
Arabic culture (and not islam) .the position of persian culture in
constructing primary Islamic culture is undeniable.

The crimes of arabs ( and not islam) in Persia when occuping , is hard
to forget . usage of Arabic language ( which is very different from the
pahlavi and old farsi is ) because of that fusing and as a result of
imposing.

So , please end all these cultural wars !

Shaahin Mohaajeri

Tombak Player & Researcher , Microtonal Composer

My web site , click picture : <http://240edo.tripod.com/index.html>

My tombak musics in Rhythmweb: www.rhythmweb.com/gdg
<http://www.rhythmweb.com/gdg>

My articles in Harmonytalk:

- www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html
<http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html>

- www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html
<http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html>

My article in DrumDojo:

www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm
<http://www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm>

My musics in Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :

- A composition based on a folk melody of Shiraz region, in shur-dastgah
by Mohajeri Shahin <http://www.xenharmony.org/mp3/shaahin/shur.mp3>

- An experiment in Iranian homayun and chahargah modes by Mohajeri
Shahin <http://www.xenharmony.org/mp3/shaahin/homayun.mp3>

________________________________

From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Cris Forster
Sent: Saturday, June 17, 2006 5:38 PM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] Re: farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic? / no apology
necessary

This is where I stand in _Musical Mathematics: A
Practice in the Mathematics of Tuning Instruments
and Analyzing Scales_:

******************************

Born c. 870 in the town of Wasij, in the district of
the city of Farab, Turkestan, and died c. 950 in
Damascus, Syria, Abu Nasr Al-Farabi was a
renowned philosopher and teacher of Turkish
descent. Although music historians will probably
never establish a direct connection between Al-
Farabi's tunbur tuning in Figure 70 and the tuning
of the modern Turkish tunbur in Figure 80, the
possibility that such a nexus exists is truly amazing.

******************************

Cris Forster, Music Director
www.chrysalis-foundation.org

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tuning%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ozan
Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> You could be cursed by many Turks for taking refuge in Arabicism.
Rauf Yekta
> and others went to extreme ends to claim Al-Farabi, Ibn Sina and
Safi Al-Din
> for their own:
>
> "It is important to know that Islam has fused Arabs, Persians and
Turks into
> one group like a nation and the language of these nations did not
at all
> differ. Therefore, a Turk like Al-Farabi wrote his works in
Arabic. In the
> time of Al-Farabi, the language of Turks was not well developed;
the
> language of scholars was Arabic first, Persian second. For that
reason,
> almost all the Turkish writers wrote their works in either Arabic
or
> Persian."
>
> Yekta, 1922
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cris Forster" <cris.forster@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tuning%40yahoogroups.com> >
> Sent: 17 Haziran 2006 Cumartesi 13:43
> Subject: [tuning] Re: farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic?
>
>
> > Shaahin,
> >
> > You're welcome.
> >
> > Perhaps we should also take D'Erlanger to task for not
> > naming the second portion of his Volume II _La Musique
> > Persane_, and the authors of countless other books that
> > have the words "Arabia," "Arabic," or "Arab," in their
> > titles, which acknowledge or imply Ibn Sina's political
> > identity, but never mention his cultural identity.
> >
> > This is where I stand in _Musical Mathematics: A Practice
> > in the Mathematics of Tuning Instruments and Analyzing
> > Scales_:
> >
> > ******************************
> >
> > Born in 980 at Afshana, near Bukhara, and buried in
> > Hamadan in 1037, Ibn Sina spent his entire life within
> > the territory of the former Persian Empire. The most
> > celebrated philosopher of the Islamic world, Ibn Sina
> > wrote most of his works in Arabic, the _lingua franca_ of
> > the Arabian Empire. However, because Ibn Sina was a
> > theorist of Persian descent, we must now examine
> > modern Persian music to determine the historical
> > significance of his 17-tone scale and his 13-limit ratios.
> >
> > ******************************
> >
> > Upon publication of my *entire* work, my readers will
> > have an opportunity to examine both sides of this issue.
> >
> > Cris Forster, Music Director
> > www.chrysalis-foundation.org
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mohajeri Shahin" wrote:
>
> To all
>
[snip]
>
> So , please end all these cultural wars !
>
> Shaahin Mohaajeri

Exactly!

We're here for the music, aren't we?

Regards,
Yahya

Well, it wasn't me who started it! Blame it on nationalism.

----- Original Message -----
From: "yahya_melb" <yahya@melbpc.org.au>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 19 Haziran 2006 Pazartesi 2:55
Subject: [tuning] Re: farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic? / no apology
necessary

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mohajeri Shahin" wrote:
> >
> > To all
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > So , please end all these cultural wars !
> >
> > Shaahin Mohaajeri
>
>
> Exactly!
>
> We're here for the music, aren't we?
>
> Regards,
> Yahya
>
>
>

A late reply:

The oud in "Islamdom" had frets up until the end of the Middle Ages as far
as I know. Just when and how it got rid of them is a mystery.

----- Original Message -----
From: "djwolf_frankfurt" <djwolf@snafu.de>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 18 Haziran 2006 Pazar 0:42
Subject: [tuning] Re: farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic? / no apology
necessary

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
> >. Up until the
> > late 19th century Turks, Arabs, Persians - regardless of social
> class and
> > regional diversity - all played the same music based more or less on the
> > same theory, which was not in the least under the monopoly of Turks,
> > Persians or Arabs.
> >
>
> Not to mention a large number of Greeks, Armenians, Southern Slavs,
> Albanians, Sinti/Roma, Jews, and other Christians from a variety of
> ethnic backgrounds. We're talking about a cosmopolitian musical
> culture and it is very difficult from our perspective to imagine both
> the breadth of that culture and the subtlety of variations, some of
> which may have been local and/or ethnic and/or sectarian in origin,
> but any dividing lines in such a heated environment would surely have
> been under constant transgression and redefinition.
>
> A friend of mine is a lute and oud scholar. Like most anyone with a
> western background, I had just assumed that here in Europe was the
> lute, with frets and its notated tradition, and "there" in Islamdom
> (Hodgson's term) was the oud, without frets and and aurally
> transmitted/improvised rather than written-down repertoire. In fact, I
> have learned from my friend, every possible mixture between these two
> extremes seems to have existed, and in substantial rather than casual
> ways, and it further appears that the greater variety was taking place
> in those environments where variety was simply built-in. The
> contributions of non-muslim, non-Turkish, non-Arabic, non-Persian
> musicians in the Islamic courts and urban high cultures was welcomed
> and substantial. Again, our imagination is probably failing us.
>
> DJW
>
>

Ozan Yarman wrote:

> The oud in "Islamdom" had frets up until the end of the Middle Ages as far
> as I know. Just when and how it got rid of them is a mystery.

It did? So it hasn't always been fretless?

I was thinking Safi ad-Din and Ibn Sina were actually using a saz, tanbur, tar or other long-necked lute with tied frets. But I expected Al-Kindi to use the familiar short-necked 'ud.

~D.

Originally, it was a fretted instrument. In fact, it was the primary
instrument by which Ilm-i Edvar (theory of devirs/modes) was explained.
Things started to change by the 15th century if I'm not mistaken. By then,
the Ney made its way into the Ottoman court (no wonder, since the sultans
became mevlevis themselves) and "perde" became disassociated from "pitch".
Long centuries witnessed the writing of treatises on Maqamat bereft of any
mathematics. This went on until the arrival of Mushaqa and Yekta.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel A. Wier" <dawiertx@sbcglobal.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 28 Haziran 2006 �ar�amba 1:35
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic? / no apology
necessary

> Ozan Yarman wrote:
>
> > The oud in "Islamdom" had frets up until the end of the Middle Ages as
far
> > as I know. Just when and how it got rid of them is a mystery.
>
> It did? So it hasn't always been fretless?
>
> I was thinking Safi ad-Din and Ibn Sina were actually using a saz, tanbur,
> tar or other long-necked lute with tied frets. But I expected Al-Kindi to
> use the familiar short-necked 'ud.
>
> ~D.
>
>

Brother, you are being too sentimental. Historical documents say but few about the origins of Al-Farabi or Ibn Sina, and less about the genre of music they advocated or the culture they defended, if any. We are judging the past based on concepts of this age. I'm most certain that such great muslim philosophers as they could not care less about petty arguments on nationalism. I have firm faith that they studied the phenomena closest to their environs, which likely was nothing short of a multi-ethnic fabric of science, art, music and literature, all categorized under the illustrious title, "Islamic Civilization".

----- Original Message -----
From: Mohajeri Shahin
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 18 Haziran 2006 Pazar 6:24
Subject: RE: [tuning] Re: farabi , ibn-sina , persian , arabic? / no apology necessary

To all

What I claimed was a historic subject. Never mind to be cursed by many Turkish or arabs brother and sister. Historical documents are very clear and not very important for me a claim by someone that all are fused by Arabic culture (and not islam) .the position of persian culture in constructing primary Islamic culture is undeniable.

The crimes of arabs ( and not islam) in Persia when occuping , is hard to forget . usage of Arabic language ( which is very different from the pahlavi and old farsi is ) because of that fusing and as a result of imposing.

So , please end all these cultural wars !

Shaahin Mohaajeri