Shohé Tanaka article deleted on Wikipedia

The Shohé Tanaka article was deleted by some idiot calling himself
Marudubshinki on February 17, 2006. I am seriously pissed off.

> The Shohé Tanaka article was deleted by some idiot calling himself
> Marudubshinki on February 17, 2006. I am seriously pissed off.

Can't you restore it?

Funny, I was just reading that article the other day and thinking
how great it was!

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > The Shohé Tanaka article was deleted by some idiot calling himself
> > Marudubshinki on February 17, 2006. I am seriously pissed off.
>
> Can't you restore it?

I guess you can't if you can't even get to it. How did you
know who deleted it? And who can we complain to?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
> >
> > > The Shohé Tanaka article was deleted by some idiot calling
himself
> > > Marudubshinki on February 17, 2006. I am seriously pissed off.
> >
> > Can't you restore it?
>
> I guess you can't if you can't even get to it. How did you
> know who deleted it? And who can we complain to?
>
> -Carl
>
Web search turned up this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DYLAN_LENNON#Deletions

Clqrk

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > The Shohé Tanaka article was deleted by some idiot calling himself
> > Marudubshinki on February 17, 2006. I am seriously pissed off.
>
> Can't you restore it?

I'm working on it, but I'm not an administrator, though it strikes me
they could use the help.

It was nominated by a known trouble maker. Why it was deleted I can't
say. I'd like to know if it was discussed and if the person who did it
made any attempt to discover if they should.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "threesixesinarow" <CACCOLA@...> wrote:

> Web search turned up this
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DYLAN_LENNON#Deletions

And it turns out Dylan Lennon is a troublemaker who has now been banned.
You would think that would be a clue that his requests for deletion
might be problematic.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
> >
> > > The Shohé Tanaka article was deleted by some idiot calling himself
> > > Marudubshinki on February 17, 2006. I am seriously pissed off.
> >
> > Can't you restore it?
>
> I guess you can't if you can't even get to it. How did you
> know who deleted it? And who can we complain to?

I've complained to Oleg Alexandrov, an administrator who has me on his
watch list since he likes my math articles, and Hyacinth, interested
in music and whom I think may be an administrator. I also posted about
it on the following page, possibly less politely than people might prefer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review

I've asked the guy who deleted it why he did it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Marudubshinki#Why_the_Shoh.C3.A9_Tanaka_deletion.3F

Hello Everyone!

I have slightly transformed already existing microtonal fonts to use for 96-equal temperament. The sharps try to keep the standard patterns for quartertones and they are arranged in a way that between each natural and sharp there are 3 accidentals with 1, 2 and 3 horizontal lines (corresponding to1, 2, and 3 eighths of a tone), and between the 8ths of tone we have the most familiar neghbour accidental with an arrow indicating 12.5 cents sharp or flat. As for the flats I used a different logic in order to respect the standard quartertone patterns.

Please check it out

http://photos.yahoo.com/jamsalinas

...and 1) if you have a better idea let us know!

By the way, I was taught by James Wood 15 years ago that a quartertone sharp was small cross consisting of a short horizontal line and a large vertical, just like I think also Penderecky used in some of his works (correct me if I am wrong!), and 3/4 tone was a horizontal line with three vertical lines (but with the horizontal line above a quarter the length of the vertical line from the top in both cases).

2) Does anyone know if that is still on use, and when did it become so popular the 2 horizontal lines for both 1/4 and ¾ tones?

3) Does anyone know about other notations in use for quartertones, eights of tones and sixteenths of tone (I do not think is there anybody using Carrillo's tablature and if so identify yourself! ha!)

I would also like to Thank you all of you who already help me so much in the past during my studies at the university! Sorry about my long silence from the list since I started a new life in Japan, where I have lived now for 5 years!

I also hope to contribute in what I can, once I find out how to upload some files as I go along with my microtonal developments.

I would also like to hear Johnny Reinhard's opinion since he recomended me in the past to write in quartertones (and I have not seen yet his scores and notation for quartertones) with the 12 or 13 cent deviation (that was obviously in case I wanted to write for his orchestra)

Sincerely,

J.A.Martin Salinas

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jose Antonio Martin Salinas
<jamsalinas@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone!
>
> I have slightly transformed already existing microtonal fonts to
use for 96-equal temperament. The sharps try to keep the standard
patterns for quartertones and they are arranged in a way that between
each natural and sharp there are 3 accidentals with 1, 2 and 3
horizontal lines (corresponding to1, 2, and 3 eighths of a tone), and
between the 8ths of tone we have the most familiar neghbour
accidental with an arrow indicating 12.5 cents sharp or flat. As for
the flats I used a different logic in order to respect the standard
quartertone patterns.
>
> Please check it out
>
> http://photos.yahoo.com/jamsalinas
>
> ...and 1) if you have a better idea let us know!

Here is an approach (developed by Dave Keenan and myself over the
past 4 years) that combines several good features of previous
notations to arrive at a set of symbols that will notate many
different kinds of tunings (both temperaments and just intonation),
including many multiples of the 12-division (as high as 192):

http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/Sagittal.pdf

Please be sure to read the section "Some Purely Practical
Considerations" (beginning on page 19), which discusses a significant
problem encountered with notations devised for specific tunings, as
does the next-to-last paragraph of our introduction to
the "remarkable" story behind our notation:

http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/gift/GiftOfTheGods.htm

Best regards,

--George Secor

Dear George D. Secor,

I am very impressed about this Sagital notation. It really solves many notational problems for a never ending amount of tuning systems. It would be great to have an ensemble or orchestra prepared to deal with any tuning at all using it as an alternative to Johnny Reinhard’s orchestra to compare the results!!!

My situation is that I want to arrange a concert in London where there is not many microtonal performers to my knowledge. Considering that I will have to guide them through the Couper / Tartini notation, I just have to find notation for the notes between the quartertones.

I am sure that Nono wrote a piece using 1/8ths of tone, so if I can find the performance notes maybe I can get other ideas.

Anyhow, your pdf was a wonderful research work as well as a superb proposal for microtonal notation.

Personally, I think Johnny Reinhard's orchestra is far ahead from any other orchestras as far as performing a wide range of microtonal repertoir is concerned. We cannot forget about the performers if we want to compose right? .... but I also believe that notations, like Sagital, are great tools for the microtonal composer who needs to rely on the notation as a composition tool.

Sincerely,

J.A.Martin Salinas

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jose Antonio Martin Salinas
<jamsalinas@...> wrote:
>
> Dear George D. Secor,
>
> I am very impressed about this Sagital notation. It really solves
many notational problems for a never ending amount of tuning systems.
It would be great to have an ensemble or orchestra prepared to deal
with any tuning at all using it as an alternative to Johnny
Reinhard’s orchestra to compare the results!!!

I hope that Johnny's and our (speaking for Dave Keenan and myself)
efforts would be viewed in a spirit of co-operation, rather than
competition (see below). :-)

> My situation is that I want to arrange a concert in London where
there is not many microtonal performers to my knowledge. Considering
that I will have to guide them through the Couper / Tartini notation,
I just have to find notation for the notes between the quartertones.

Martin, in such a short time, I hope that you have been able to
digest all of the material in our paper that might be helpful to you:
http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/Sagittal.pdf
In any case I would like to point out a couple of things relevant to
your objective.

Beginning at the middle of page 9 is a discussion of the "trojan"
symbol set, in which the symbols are defined as alterations from the
pitches of 12-ET. Referring to Figure 10, observe that you would
need only 4 microtonal symbol pairs to notate 96-EDO in the mixed-
symbol version of Sagittal:

down up cents
\! /| 12.5
!~ |~ 25.0
!/ |\ 37.5
\!/ /|\ 50.0

Since the 50-cent (ordinary arrow) symbol pair is one that is already
widely accepted for notating quartertones, there are therefore only 3
symbol pairs that are totally new.

> I am sure that Nono wrote a piece using 1/8ths of tone, so if I can
find the performance notes maybe I can get other ideas.
>
> Anyhow, your pdf was a wonderful research work as well as a superb
proposal for microtonal notation.

Thank you.

> Personally, I think Johnny Reinhard's orchestra is far ahead from
any other orchestras as far as performing a wide range of microtonal
repertoir is concerned. We cannot forget about the performers if we
want to compose right? ....

Indeed! Johnny's notation is discussed in two places in our paper
(starting page 19). I infer that your musicians will be using
conventional instruments with extended (pitch-bending) techniques, so
I would encourage you to seriously consider making use of his
methodology. Note that on page 21 you'll see that it's possible to
use the Reinhard cents and Sagittal symbols in combination.

>but I also believe that notations, like Sagital, are great tools for
the microtonal composer who needs to rely on the notation as a
composition tool.

Yes. In fact, I have found that I can jot down ideas for melodies or
harmonic progressions that I might use in a future composition
without having to decide on (or restrict my thinking to) a particular
tuning at that time, since the symbols have the same harmonic
(or "generic") meanings in various tunings.

Best,

--George Secor

Hi George!

It took me a while to go through your papers on Sagittal notation. I think it is worthy to git it a go and give the musicians a choice to see which systems they feel more confortable with.

In the mean time I am trying to improve what I already proposed! ... I am not sure I can send attachments to the list. If it does not work could somebody explain where can I upload it!

These are the new accidentals, the little symbol on the top right corner of the accidentals located between the eights of tones indicate a raise of 12.5 cents. They avoids making the accidental any taller or wider, without even touching the already existing accidental, in order to avoid making the accidental unreadable. This little symbol was one of the many I tried by hand on a very small manuscript. This is the only one that did not make the accidentals look much bigger and also the only one that did not touch the accidentals.

I hope that you can all check the attachment!

J.A.Martin Salinas

----- Original Message ----
From: George D. Secor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 13 May, 2006 2:59:06 AM
Subject: [tuning] Re: 96 Equal temperament

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jose Antonio Martin Salinas
<jamsalinas@...> wrote:
>
> Dear George D. Secor,
>
> I am very impressed about this Sagital notation. It really solves
many notational problems for a never ending amount of tuning systems.
It would be great to have an ensemble or orchestra prepared to deal
with any tuning at all using it as an alternative to Johnny
Reinhardâs orchestra to compare the results!!!

I hope that Johnny's and our (speaking for Dave Keenan and myself)
efforts would be viewed in a spirit of co-operation, rather than
competition (see below). :-)

> My situation is that I want to arrange a concert in London where
there is not many microtonal performers to my knowledge. Considering
that I will have to guide them through the Couper / Tartini notation,
I just have to find notation for the notes between the quartertones.

Martin, in such a short time, I hope that you have been able to
digest all of the material in our paper that might be helpful to you:
http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/Sagittal.pdf
In any case I would like to point out a couple of things relevant to
your objective.

Beginning at the middle of page 9 is a discussion of the "trojan"
symbol set, in which the symbols are defined as alterations from the
pitches of 12-ET. Referring to Figure 10, observe that you would
need only 4 microtonal symbol pairs to notate 96-EDO in the mixed-
symbol version of Sagittal:

down up cents
\ ! /| 12.5
!~ |~ 25.0
!/ |\ 37.5
\ !/ /|\ 50.0

Since the 50-cent (ordinary arrow) symbol pair is one that is already
widely accepted for notating quartertones, there are therefore only 3
symbol pairs that are totally new.

> I am sure that Nono wrote a piece using 1/8ths of tone, so if I can
find the performance notes maybe I can get other ideas.
>
> Anyhow, your pdf was a wonderful research work as well as a superb
proposal for microtonal notation.

Thank you.

> Personally, I think Johnny Reinhard's orchestra is far ahead from
any other orchestras as far as performing a wide range of microtonal
repertoir is concerned. We cannot forget about the performers if we
want to compose right? ....

Indeed! Johnny's notation is discussed in two places in our paper
(starting page 19). I infer that your musicians will be using
conventional instruments with extended (pitch-bending) techniques, so
I would encourage you to seriously consider making use of his
methodology. Note that on page 21 you'll see that it's possible to
use the Reinhard cents and Sagittal symbols in combination.

>but I also believe that notations, like Sagital, are great tools for
the microtonal composer who needs to rely on the notation as a
composition tool.

Yes. In fact, I have found that I can jot down ideas for melodies or
harmonic progressions that I might use in a future composition
without having to decide on (or restrict my thinking to) a particular
tuning at that time, since the symbols have the same harmonic
(or "generic") meanings in various tunings.

Best,

--George Secor

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Jose Antonio Martin Salinas escreveu:
> Hi George!
> > It took me a while to go through your papers on Sagittal notation. I
> think it is worthy to git it a go and give the musicians a choice to
> see which systems they feel more confortable with.
> > In the mean time I am trying to improve what I already proposed! ...
> I am not sure I can send attachments to the list. If it does not work
> could somebody explain where can I upload it!
> > These are the new accidentals, the little symbol on the top right
> corner of the accidentals located between the eights of tones
> indicate a raise of 12.5 cents. They avoids making the accidental any
> taller or wider, without even touching the already existing
> accidental, in order to avoid making the accidental unreadable. This
> little symbol was one of the many I tried by hand on a very small
> manuscript. This is the only one that did not make the accidentals
> look much bigger and also the only one that did not touch the
> accidentals.
> > I hope that you can all check the attachment!
> > > J.A.Martin Salinas

Hola, Jose Antonio.

Your sharp accidentals are interesting. I am wondering how do the new flat symbols look like.

The new approach is better than that on
http://us.a2.yahoofs.com/users/446208ecz21d782e6/2bf2scd/__sr_/48ddscd.jpg?ph4HUbEBOHrv.l7I
because in the new one there is no conflict between arrow direction and symbol direction.

The arrows of the older approach seem to be more readable.
But it is needed to check this by putting the accidentals in staff, on both lines and spaces.

Cheers,
Hudson Lacerda
http://br.geocities.com/hfmlacerda/

_______________________________________________________ Novo Yahoo! Messenger com voz: Instale agora e fa�a liga��es de gra�a. http://br.messenger.yahoo.com/

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>
> Jose Antonio Martin Salinas escreveu:
> >
> > These are the new accidentals, the little symbol on the top right
> > corner of the accidentals located between the eights of tones
> > indicate a raise of 12.5 cents. They avoids making the accidental
any
> > taller or wider, without even touching the already existing
> > accidental, in order to avoid making the accidental unreadable.
This
> > little symbol was one of the many I tried by hand on a very small
> > manuscript. This is the only one that did not make the accidentals
> > look much bigger and also the only one that did not touch the
> > accidentals.
> >
> > I hope that you can all check the attachment!
> >
> > J.A.Martin Salinas
>
> Hola, Jose Antonio.
>
> Your sharp accidentals are interesting. I am wondering how do the
new
> flat symbols look like.
> ...

I have no idea where you went to see this, since attachments to
messages are not stored.

--George

George D. Secor escreveu:
> I have no idea where you went to see this, since attachments to > messages are not stored.

Strange. The message from Jose Antonio arrived here with 89kB of size, with an attachment with 52kB, named "Accidentals for 96 ET V.2.jpg".

_______________________________________________________ Abra sua conta no Yahoo! Mail: 1GB de espa�o, alertas de e-mail no celular e anti-spam realmente eficaz. http://br.info.mail.yahoo.com/

OK! I created a quick home page to show these new accidentals including the flats now in version 3

http://www.geocities.com/jamsalinas/96ETnotation.html

by the way...I cannot upload files to the tuning list since is full up! ... I will avoid attachments in the future! sorry!

J.A.Martin Salinas

----- Original Message ----
From: Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 20 May, 2006 4:34:54 AM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: 96 Equal temperament

George D. Secor escreveu:
> I have no idea where you went to see this, since attachments to
> messages are not stored.

Strange. The message from Jose Antonio arrived here with 89kB of size,
with an attachment with 52kB, named "Accidentals for 96 ET V.2.jpg".

I suggest the list finds some free space to store all the files belonging to the tuning list in one place since the tuning list archives are full up and I could not upload my picts!

J.A.Martin Salinas

Hi Hudson and everyone,

I am glad you also prefered the second set of sharp accidentals for the 96ET, here is the full version including the flats (jpeg full size!) as you requested.

http://www.geocities.com/jamsalinas/96etnotationmay21st.html

The small corner symbol on the to right corner of the sharps looks better than on the bottom left corner of the flats. I have also transformed the previous version of flats since I had the three quartertone flat wrong according to the Tartini-Couper notation which I am trying to stick to.

As I said before I am only looking for a solution for this performance. I am using Carrillo's tablature for compositional purposes and I just want to be as close as I can to the standard notation in order to have the musicians on my side during the short time of practice that they might have available.

J.A.Martin Salinas

Jose Antonio Martin Salinas escreveu:
> Hi Hudson and everyone,
> > I am glad you also prefered the second set of sharp accidentals for
> the 96ET, here is the full version including the flats (jpeg full
> size!) as you requested.
> > http://www.geocities.com/jamsalinas/96etnotationmay21st.html

I find difficult get the difference between open-flats, closed-flats and reversed-flats. The symmetry d-b is confusing... maybe you can try the Sagittal idea to use different widths for d and b.

> [...]
> As I said before I am only looking for a solution for this
> performance. I am using Carrillo's tablature for compositional
> purposes and I just want to be as close as I can to the standard
> notation in order to have the musicians on my side during the short
> time of practice that they might have available.

Maybe you can choose to use only a small subset of those accidentals, with symbols which are more like the conventional ones.

--
'-------------------------------------------------------------------.
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*N�o deixe seu voto sumir! http://www.votoseguro.org/
*Ap�ie o Manifesto: http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/

== THE WAR IN IRAQ COSTS ==
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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Jose Antonio Martin Salinas
<jamsalinas@...> wrote:
>
> I suggest the list finds some free space to store all the files
belonging to the tuning list in one place since the tuning list
archives are full up and I could not upload my picts!

We've got another group, tuning_files, to catch the overflow. You
should be able to join that and upload files.

A maybe easier alternative:

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/

Easier because you can create pages to properly frame the files, and
because there is not an overall 20mb limit to total postings, only a
5mb limit per file.

(Not yet functional as a wiki, because a wiki needs people actively
creating and maintaining pages, and no one is really there.)