Re: Reply to Johnny Reinhard (was: Re : F in G7 as 21/16 rather than...

If the thread is to push 5/4 onto J.S. Bach for speculative curiosity, fine,
though I'm not interested. In fact I find the idea repulsive (as I've
mentioned re the Ezra Sims Bach JI travesty).

Paul, if you are wondering about verbal, or other written and circumstantial
evidence, I must recommend your reading Werckmeister's treatise of 1691
"Musical Temperament." You'll soon realize that Werckmeister devoted the
majority of his lengthy work on a temerpament (III) that was already running
wild througout Thuringia. Bach was eminently aware of all this. Bach's dear
cousin Johann Walther had regular correspondence with Werckmeister while he
was living in Bach's house.

Why should Bach repeat what's in Werckmeister's treatise? More important,
why hasn't Werckmeister been translated from its Thuringian dialect?

Bach is temperament. If all thirds are to be tuned sharp, it is not as
keyboard- sensitive an issue as one might think. Bach's favorite instrument
for composing is reputed to be the clavichord. Due to its "Bebewungen" pitch
bends there is no _absolute_ of any kind.

And if you want further examples of Bach's ideas, you must seek out his
student J.P. Kirnberger ("The Art of Strict Composition" and several essays).
Kirnberger leaves no doubt that Bach was unequal-irregular giving examples
of specific pieces (for several composers), warning against modulations more
than a "quadrant" away. Quadrants are described as groupings of keys that
are fifths away from each other, relating 3 distinct major keys (and 3 minor
keys by extention) to each other. Kirnberger is either correct, or he is a
liar. There's no middle ground.

Johnny Reinhard
AFMM

If the thread is to push 5/4 onto J.S. Bach for speculative curiosity, fine,
though I'm not interested. In fact I find the idea repulsive (as I've
mentioned re the Ezra Sims Bach JI travesty).

Paul, if you are wondering about verbal, or other written and circumstantial
evidence, I must recommend your reading Werckmeister's treatise of 1691
"Musical Temperament." You'll soon realize that Werckmeister devoted the
majority of his lengthy work on a temerpament (III) that was already running
wild througout Thuringia. Bach was eminently aware of all this. Bach's dear
cousin Johann Walther had regular correspondence with Werckmeister while he
was living in Bach's house.

Why should Bach repeat what's in Werckmeister's treatise? More important,
why hasn't Werckmeister been translated from its Thuringian dialect?

Bach is temperament. If all thirds are to be tuned sharp, it is not as
keyboard- sensitive an issue as one might think. Bach's favorite instrument
for composing is reputed to be the clavichord. Due to its "Bebewungen" pitch
bends there is no _absolute_ of any kind.

And if you want further examples of Bach's ideas, you must seek out his
student J.P. Kirnberger ("The Art of Strict Composition" and several essays).
Kirnberger leaves no doubt that Bach was unequal-irregular giving examples
of specific pieces (for several composers), warning against modulations more
than a "quadrant" away. Quadrants are described as groupings of keys that
are fifths away from each other, relating 3 distinct major keys (and 3 minor
keys by extention) to each other. Kirnberger is either correct, or he is a
liar. There's no middle ground.

Johnny Reinhard
AFMM

Johnny Reinhard wrote,

>If the thread is to push 5/4 onto J.S. Bach for speculative curiosity,
fine,
>though I'm not interested. In fact I find the idea repulsive (as I've
>mentioned re the Ezra Sims Bach JI travesty).

I suspect this travesty was due to Sims' attempt to use strict JI, rather
than adaptive JI.

Paul, you are correct. The Sims work in pure JI seemed to have different
semantic meaning for the music, thus distorting it for me. Johnny Reinhard

>Paul, you are correct. The Sims work in pure JI seemed to have different
>semantic meaning for the music, thus distorting it for me. Johnny Reinhard

Similarly, many of John deLaubenfels' adaptive JI versions of the Chaconne
in d have large enough melodic shifts to distort the semantic meaning for
me. However, I am betting that in an adaptive JI rendition based on
1/4-comma meantone, the melodic shifts (<6 cents) will be too small to
disturb anyone. Hopefully we will be able to realize this on MIDI form in
the near future.