upright bass intonation

Hi all,

In listening to the jazz, I always notice that bass intonation
is funny. This is well known, actually, and it's why the
fender bass was called a "precision bass".

While some players turn this into an expressive element, and
while it is part of the jazz idiom, I'd be lying if I said it
didn't bother me about 50% of the time.

What is it? To me it sounds like intervals are shrunk -- upward
notes played flat and downward ones sharp.

The *only* upright player I've ever heard who I feel has
'non-bassy' intonation is Edgar Meyer. That guy's a freak.

-Carl

PS- Saw The Bad Plus at Yoshi's last night. It was, without a
doubt, among the greatest concerts I've experienced that I can
count on one hand.

Carl Lumma wrote:

>
>PS- Saw The Bad Plus at Yoshi's last night. It was, without a
>doubt, among the greatest concerts I've experienced that I can
>count on one hand.
>
> >
I heard them open for Ornette in Newark last November. Bad+ suffered from
opening band = bad sound, but the drummer really knocked me out.

I'm looking forward to the Ornette live that's about to come out.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

> Bad+ suffered from
> opening band = bad sound, but the drummer really knocked me out.

That guy's a freak.

-Carl

Hi Carl,

I never really thought about it, because I *like* jazz contrabass
players, as a class of musician/order of being. :-)

But I'm reminded of a quip from my violinist friend who complained
of cellists' tendencies (as a class of musicians/order of being ;-)
to practice "unjust intonation". I happen to like cellists, too.

I can ask some of my contrabass-playing pals what they think about
it.

-P

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> In listening to the jazz, I always notice that bass intonation
> is funny. This is well known, actually, and it's why the
> fender bass was called a "precision bass".
>
> While some players turn this into an expressive element, and
> while it is part of the jazz idiom, I'd be lying if I said it
> didn't bother me about 50% of the time.
>
> What is it? To me it sounds like intervals are shrunk -- upward
> notes played flat and downward ones sharp.
>
> The *only* upright player I've ever heard who I feel has
> 'non-bassy' intonation is Edgar Meyer. That guy's a freak.
>
> -Carl
>
> PS- Saw The Bad Plus at Yoshi's last night. It was, without a
> doubt, among the greatest concerts I've experienced that I can
> count on one hand.
>

> Hi Carl,
>
> I never really thought about it, because I *like* jazz contrabass
> players, as a class of musician/order of being. :-)
>
> But I'm reminded of a quip from my violinist friend who complained
> of cellists' tendencies (as a class of musicians/order of being ;-)
> to practice "unjust intonation". I happen to like cellists, too.
>
> I can ask some of my contrabass-playing pals what they think about
> it.
>
> -P

I like it about 25% of the time. I've never heard the problem
with the cello, though.

-Carl

Hey Carl et al,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> In listening to the jazz, I always notice that bass intonation
> is funny. This is well known, actually, and it's why the
> fender bass was called a "precision bass".

I don't know much about Fender's Precision Basses, except they have
frets (read "equal-tempered", heard "Ouch!").

> What is it? To me it sounds like intervals are shrunk -- upward
> notes played flat and downward ones sharp.

Two things come to my mind about bass intonation.

1. Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_%28music%29 , "a low
bass note will sound lower in pitch if it is louder". So the bass-
player, with the instrument right up to his ear, hears a different
pitch than the audience.

2. The second degree of the scale moves around. Say a tune is in
the key of C 1/1. Assuming the band sticks to 5-limit just
intonation, a D should be 9/8 for D major chord, but 10/9 for a D
minor chord. I often focus on what the bass does the second degree
of the scale, as he usually plays the roots of chords. I've heard
the same confusion with tubas doing the "um-pah" thing: C G C G D G
D G ...

--Mark Nowitzky
nowitzky@alum.mit.edu, AKA tuning-owner@yahoogroups.com

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@> wrote:
> > In listening to the jazz, I always notice that bass intonation
> > is funny. This is well known, actually, and it's why the
> > fender bass was called a "precision bass".
>
> I don't know much about Fender's Precision Basses, except they have
> frets

Right. The idea was to improve bass intonation.

> > What is it? To me it sounds like intervals are shrunk -- upward
> > notes played flat and downward ones sharp.
>
> Two things come to my mind about bass intonation.
>
> 1. Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_%28music%29 , "a low
> bass note will sound lower in pitch if it is louder". So the bass-
> player, with the instrument right up to his ear, hears a different
> pitch than the audience.

That's a point.

> 2. The second degree of the scale moves around. Say a tune is in
> the key of C 1/1. Assuming the band sticks to 5-limit just
> intonation,

But jazz bands don't do this, in my experience.

-Carl

Hi Mark,

On Sun, 02 Apr 2006, Mark Nowitzky wrote:
>
> Hey Carl et al,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
> > In listening to the jazz, I always notice that bass intonation
> > is funny. This is well known, actually, and it's why the
> > fender bass was called a "precision bass".
>
> I don't know much about Fender's Precision Basses, except they have
> frets (read "equal-tempered", heard "Ouch!").

;-)

> > What is it? To me it sounds like intervals are shrunk -- upward
> > notes played flat and downward ones sharp.
>
> Two things come to my mind about bass intonation.
>
> 1. Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_%28music%29 , "a low
> bass note will sound lower in pitch if it is louder". So the bass-
> player, with the instrument right up to his ear, hears a different
> pitch than the audience.

Logical.

> 2. The second degree of the scale moves around. Say a tune is in
> the key of C 1/1. Assuming the band sticks to 5-limit just
> intonation, a D should be 9/8 for D major chord, but 10/9 for a D
> minor chord. I often focus on what the bass does the second degree
> of the scale, as he usually plays the roots of chords. I've heard
> the same confusion with tubas doing the "um-pah" thing: C G C G D G
> D G ...

So, tell us how good players of the "ultimate microtonal
instrument" (esp. the lower varieties) are at correctly
intoning their low notes?

FWIW, my impression is that most trombonists tend to
contract their pitch range at both ends of the spectrum,
more noticeably in the bass, and are only really accurate
in the approximate range Bb3 to D5. Mind you, I may
never have heard any *good* trombonists!

Regards,
Yahya

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> > 1. Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_%28music%29,
> > "a low bass note will sound lower in pitch if it is louder".
> > So the bass-player, with the instrument right up to his ear,
> > hears a different pitch than the audience.

I wonder why this tuba and trombone don't seem to have this
problem. Or indeed, bowed orchestral contrabass. Maybe it has
to do with the kind of music they typically play -- there tends
to be more vertical blend in a brass quintet than in a jazz band.
Owing ultimately to the fact that brass and bowed strings have
longer sustain than plucked bass.

And/or, whatabout this: with plucked/struck strings, the pitch
evoked by the transient or near the attack of the note tends to
be higher than during its sustain/decay. In my experience
working with pianos and my slide guitar, anyway. Maybe for
some reason, due to its radiation pattern say, the transient is
more audible to the player than the audience. Seems possible.

I'm trying to remember what bad electric fretless bass
intonation sounds like. I think it's the same problem. Their
sustain is usually pretty good, and since everything is coming
through a speaker, transients ought to be equally audible to
player and audience. Huh.

Maybe it's just that it's hard to move one's hand far enough
fast enough, especially with quick-moving walking bass lines
typical of jazz.

Just brainstorming.

-Carl

Hi Carl,

On Tue, 04 Apr 2006, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > > 1. Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_%28music%29,
> > > "a low bass note will sound lower in pitch if it is louder".
> > > So the bass-player, with the instrument right up to his ear,
> > > hears a different pitch than the audience.
>
> I wonder why this tuba and trombone don't seem to have this
> problem. Or indeed, bowed orchestral contrabass. Maybe it has
> to do with the kind of music they typically play -- there tends
> to be more vertical blend in a brass quintet than in a jazz band.
Yes.

> Owing ultimately to the fact that brass and bowed strings have
> longer sustain than plucked bass.
This accounts for the difference between
plucked and bowed strings, but doesn't fully
account for the difference between staccato
and legato or more sustained brass notes.
Some jazz styles *do* have smooth, sustained
blend as a major component, and of course
the intonation has to be better for the held
chords to work.

> And/or, whatabout this: with plucked/struck strings, the pitch
> evoked by the transient or near the attack of the note tends to
> be higher than during its sustain/decay. In my experience
> working with pianos and my slide guitar, anyway. Maybe for
> some reason, due to its radiation pattern say, the transient is
> more audible to the player than the audience. Seems possible.
Yep. When tuning up a guitar, I always make
sure to tune it piano, because plucking the
strings forte gives a different transient
pitch curve, and always listen to tell the
sustained note is in tune. So I tune up a bit
slower than some others ... ;-)

> I'm trying to remember what bad electric fretless bass
> intonation sounds like. ...
BAD!

> ...I think it's the same problem. Their
> sustain is usually pretty good, and since everything is coming
> through a speaker, transients ought to be equally audible to
> player and audience. Huh.

True. The thing is, I swear it's harder to
pitch a stringed instrument correctly in
music with a stronger attack. Some players
seem to get all their volume from the attack,
rather than the sustain, which leads to some
pretty noisy and sloppy playing.

> Maybe it's just that it's hard to move one's hand far enough
> fast enough, especially with quick-moving walking bass lines
> typical of jazz.

I'd warrant this mechanical limitation is
behind a lot of poor intonation on strings,
not just the bass ones, although the effect
is multiplied there by the instrument's
dimensions. Have you ever noticed that
a bass player's hands aren't proportionally
bigger? ;-)

> Just brainstorming.
>
> Carl

And making a lot of sense, I think.

Regards,
Yahya

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Orchestral string basses are notoriously sloppy in intonation too.
Combination of the distance the hand has to move (too large to be
judged by the fingers) and the fact that not many people notice ...
until you get to a passage with basses and nothing else, which is very
rare.

I could be wrong but I think tubas have most of their notes ready-made
to the desired precision. And of course there is only one bass tuba.
Basses and tubas have relatively weak overtones so the adverse
consequences of being a bit out are minor.

~~~T~~~

In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > > 1. Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_%28music%29,
> > > "a low bass note will sound lower in pitch if it is louder".
> > > So the bass-player, with the instrument right up to his ear,
> > > hears a different pitch than the audience.
>
> I wonder why this tuba and trombone don't seem to have this
> problem. Or indeed, bowed orchestral contrabass. Maybe it has
> to do with the kind of music they typically play -- there tends
> to be more vertical blend in a brass quintet than in a jazz band.
> Owing ultimately to the fact that brass and bowed strings have
> longer sustain than plucked bass.
>

> > Owing ultimately to the fact that brass and bowed strings have
> > longer sustain than plucked bass.
> This accounts for the difference between
> plucked and bowed strings, but doesn't fully
> account for the difference between staccato
> and legato or more sustained brass notes.
> Some jazz styles *do* have smooth, sustained
> blend as a major component, and of course
> the intonation has to be better for the held
> chords to work.

Perhaps it would be best to consider only solos for the moment.
I don't hear the same kind of problems with brass that I do
with plucked upright bass.

> > Maybe it's just that it's hard to move one's hand far enough
> > fast enough, especially with quick-moving walking bass lines
> > typical of jazz.
>
> I'd warrant this mechanical limitation is
> behind a lot of poor intonation on strings,
> not just the bass ones, although the effect
> is multiplied there by the instrument's
> dimensions. Have you ever noticed that
> a bass player's hands aren't proportionally
> bigger? ;-)

Yeah, but I don't hear this problem with accomplished violin
or cello players. I haven't listened much bowed bass outside
of orchestras (where I don't hear the problem) and
Edgar Meyer (who has perfect intonation).

-Carl

> I could be wrong but I think tubas have most of their notes
> ready-made to the desired precision.

It's hard enough to get a sound out of a tuba at all. It
may be that there isn't a systematic pull on all the notes
like the one I imagine on a bass' fingerboard.

> And of course there is only one bass tuba.

?

> Basses and tubas have relatively weak overtones so the adverse
> consequences of being a bit out are minor.

I think string bass and tuba both have plentiful overtones.

-Carl