A capella singing

Just a general question -

Has anyone ever determined the type of tuning used in a capella singing
including barbershop quartet singing - by using an oscilloscope or
other measuring device?

Is it closest to equal temperament, just intonation, meantone, or
Pythagorean? Or does it vary . . .

On 3/14/06, Paul G Hjelmstad <paul.hjelmstad@us.ing.com> wrote:
> Just a general question -
>
> Has anyone ever determined the type of tuning used in a capella singing
> including barbershop quartet singing - by using an oscilloscope or
> other measuring device?
>
> Is it closest to equal temperament, just intonation, meantone, or
> Pythagorean? Or does it vary . . .

Aaron Wolf would argue (and I agree with him) that they strive for
7-limit just intonation.

Keenan

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@...> wrote:
>
> On 3/14/06, Paul G Hjelmstad <paul.hjelmstad@...> wrote:
> > Just a general question -
> >
> > Has anyone ever determined the type of tuning used in a capella singing
> > including barbershop quartet singing - by using an oscilloscope or
> > other measuring device?
> >
> > Is it closest to equal temperament, just intonation, meantone, or
> > Pythagorean? Or does it vary . . .
>
> Aaron Wolf would argue (and I agree with him) that they strive for
> 7-limit just intonation.
>
> Keenan
>

Thanks Keenan, yes I would. But I'll add that lots of pop a cappella does
not use many 7th chords. They have lots of fifths and even suspended 9ths
and 4ths and such. But the striving is clearly for beatless harmonies a la
JI. I'll add that in relation to my recent project, I just am seemingly going
to get the opportunity to get 95% isolated separate voice tracks for our
recent championship quartet "Realtime," which I'll be able to analyze and
work with. I'll certainly share the results, and I'm very excited about this.
They are a quartet beyond even many other recent champions as far as
blend and not oversinging. I'm crossing my fingers that it all works out
and the tracks will be useful.

In Harmony,
Aaron

> Just a general question -
>
> Has anyone ever determined the type of tuning used in a capella
> singing including barbershop quartet singing - by using an
> oscilloscope or other measuring device?
>
> Is it closest to equal temperament, just intonation, meantone, or
> Pythagorean? Or does it vary . . .

It turns out that the answer very much depends on how you
set up the definitions of these things.

-Carl

> I just am seemingly going to get the opportunity to get 95%
> isolated separate voice tracks for our recent championship
> quartet "Realtime," which I'll be able to analyze and work
> with. I'll certainly share the results, and I'm very excited
> about this.

Wow!!

I suggested (as I'm sure, many before me) such a study on
this list as early as, I think, 1997. The technology to do
it existed at the time, but was not commercially available
at the consumer level. Now that Melodyne is a mature product,
and digital multitrack recording can be done on a laptop,
it is quite feasible!

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > I just am seemingly going to get the opportunity to get 95%
> > isolated separate voice tracks for our recent championship
> > quartet "Realtime," which I'll be able to analyze and work
> > with. I'll certainly share the results, and I'm very excited
> > about this.
>
> Wow!!
>
> I suggested (as I'm sure, many before me) such a study on
> this list as early as, I think, 1997. The technology to do
> it existed at the time, but was not commercially available
> at the consumer level. Now that Melodyne is a mature product,
> and digital multitrack recording can be done on a laptop,
> it is quite feasible!
>
> -Carl

I'd be very interested in these results. I've always felt
that a capella singing is 7-limit JI, especially barbershop.
It would be fun to get this verified by technology. Of course,
as you all know, the dominant seventh chord is very important in
western music. It's interesting that the tempered major third
is 14 cents sharp, and the minor seventh 32 cents sharp, so 7/5
is only off by 18 cents. 10/7 is off by exactly the same amount,
therefore, tritones do the Escher-shift thing, sometimes sounding
like F#/C and sometimes Gb/C but I am certainly preaching to the
choir here!
>

> > > I just am seemingly going to get the opportunity to get 95%
> > > isolated separate voice tracks for our recent championship
> > > quartet "Realtime," which I'll be able to analyze and work
> > > with. I'll certainly share the results, and I'm very excited
> > > about this.
> >
> > Wow!!
> >
> > I suggested (as I'm sure, many before me) such a study on
> > this list as early as, I think, 1997. The technology to do
> > it existed at the time, but was not commercially available
> > at the consumer level. Now that Melodyne is a mature product,
> > and digital multitrack recording can be done on a laptop,
> > it is quite feasible!
>
> I'd be very interested in these results. I've always felt
> that a capella singing is 7-limit JI, especially barbershop.

I think a capella singing is 5-limit JI -- barbershop is
the *only* natural (not engineered), mature 7-limit music in
the world that I know of.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > > > I just am seemingly going to get the opportunity to get 95%
> > > > isolated separate voice tracks for our recent championship
> > > > quartet "Realtime," which I'll be able to analyze and work
> > > > with. I'll certainly share the results, and I'm very excited
> > > > about this.
> > >
> > > Wow!!
> > >
> > > I suggested (as I'm sure, many before me) such a study on
> > > this list as early as, I think, 1997. The technology to do
> > > it existed at the time, but was not commercially available
> > > at the consumer level. Now that Melodyne is a mature product,
> > > and digital multitrack recording can be done on a laptop,
> > > it is quite feasible!
> >
> > I'd be very interested in these results. I've always felt
> > that a capella singing is 7-limit JI, especially barbershop.
>
> I think a capella singing is 5-limit JI -- barbershop is
> the *only* natural (not engineered), mature 7-limit music in
> the world that I know of.
>
> -Carl

Of course, given all the various ethnic and tribal music,
there might be other examples, but barbershop and maybe
glee club singing would probably be the most obvious
examples in Western music...
>

> > I think a capella singing is 5-limit JI -- barbershop is
> > the *only* natural (not engineered), mature 7-limit music
> > in the world that I know of.
> >
> > -Carl
>
> Of course, given all the various ethnic and tribal music,
> there might be other examples, but barbershop and maybe
> glee club singing would probably be the most obvious
> examples in Western music...

There was a thread about this, and Paul mentioned African
bushmen singing, but I was unable to track down a recording
of the tribe he mentioned. However, signging some 7-limit
dyads here and there is a far cry from a tonal form with
saturated 7-limit chords as the *fundamental consonance*.
Paul disputed this too, citing the fact that b-shop tags
usually end with a triad. I found this argument completely
unconvincing. I have searched, and I have never heard any
true 7-limit styles in the wild. I'd certainly be interested
in any examples, if anyone knows of them.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:

>I have searched, and I have never heard any
> true 7-limit styles in the wild. I'd certainly be interested
> in any examples, if anyone knows of them.

I'd be interested in any 7-limit consonant styles, but particularly in
7-limit polyphony, where vertically the chords stick mostly to
consonances. I do that a lot, and like it.

> >I have searched, and I have never heard any
> > true 7-limit styles in the wild. I'd certainly be interested
> > in any examples, if anyone knows of them.
>
> I'd be interested in any 7-limit consonant styles, but
> particularly in 7-limit polyphony, where vertically the
> chords stick mostly to consonances. I do that a lot, and like it.

My friend Stephen has often lamented his distaste for most
20th-century music. When I suggested 'they ran out of
room to innovate', he didn't agree. He suggested 'the
polyphony of Dixieland, but with jazz harmony' as an untapped
direction, and to this day I haven't heard it.

I do enjoy the polyphony in your work, but it certainly isn't
a primary thing I notice about it.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > > I think a capella singing is 5-limit JI -- barbershop is
> > > the *only* natural (not engineered), mature 7-limit music
> > > in the world that I know of.
> > >
> > > -Carl
> >
> > Of course, given all the various ethnic and tribal music,
> > there might be other examples, but barbershop and maybe
> > glee club singing would probably be the most obvious
> > examples in Western music...
>
> There was a thread about this, and Paul mentioned African
> bushmen singing, but I was unable to track down a recording
> of the tribe he mentioned. However, signging some 7-limit
> dyads here and there is a far cry from a tonal form with
> saturated 7-limit chords as the *fundamental consonance*.
> Paul disputed this too, citing the fact that b-shop tags
> usually end with a triad. I found this argument completely
> unconvincing. I have searched, and I have never heard any
> true 7-limit styles in the wild. I'd certainly be interested
> in any examples, if anyone knows of them.
>
> -Carl
>

If you include traditional Tuvan and Mongolian overtone singing
in your list of "mature" styles, then obviously they make use of the
7 and beyond limits, but I don't think that's exactly what you meant.

On another note, it is not too darn rare for a jazzier barbershop
arrangement to end on a seventh or even a 7-9. And I like that
as do a number of my friends who do not understand the theory
behind it.

-Aaron

> > > > I think a capella singing is 5-limit JI -- barbershop is
> > > > the *only* natural (not engineered), mature 7-limit music
> > > > in the world that I know of.
> > >
> > > Of course, given all the various ethnic and tribal music,
> > > there might be other examples, but barbershop and maybe
> > > glee club singing would probably be the most obvious
> > > examples in Western music...
> >
> > There was a thread about this, and Paul mentioned African
> > bushmen singing, but I was unable to track down a recording
> > of the tribe he mentioned. However, signging some 7-limit
> > dyads here and there is a far cry from a tonal form with
> > saturated 7-limit chords as the *fundamental consonance*.
> > Paul disputed this too, citing the fact that b-shop tags
> > usually end with a triad. I found this argument completely
> > unconvincing. I have searched, and I have never heard any
> > true 7-limit styles in the wild. I'd certainly be interested
> > in any examples, if anyone knows of them.
>
> If you include traditional Tuvan and Mongolian overtone singing
> in your list of "mature" styles, then obviously they make use of
> the 7 and beyond limits, but I don't think that's exactly what
> you meant.

You're right, throat singing doesn't begin to count (though it
is cool). You snipped the part where I wrote "tonal form with
saturated 7-limit chords". Not that it would have to be tonal
in the way or to the extent that b-shop is, and not that the
chords would *have* to be saturated, but it should have harmonic
forms rich enough to justify a term like "7-limit".

Highland bagpipe music (piobaireachd) has ratios of 7 in it,
but is just melody-over-drone. (I do *love* this music, though.)

Diatonic harmonicas are usually 7-limit, but there's something
fairly restricted about the diatonic harmonica music I've heard.

> On another note, it is not too darn rare for a jazzier barbershop
> arrangement to end on a seventh or even a 7-9.

A fact which I believe I tried to point out in that thread.

-Carl

Carl wrote:

> You're right, throat singing doesn't begin to count (though it
> is cool). You snipped the part where I wrote "tonal form with
> saturated 7-limit chords". Not that it would have to be tonal
> in the way or to the extent that b-shop is, and not that the
> chords would *have* to be saturated, but it should have harmonic
> forms rich enough to justify a term like "7-limit".

I don't know if this is what you meant but I can highly recommend listening
to Tanzanian folk music, especially the way it was performed by the "Master
Musicians of Tanzania" with their lead singer Hukwe Zawose. Almost
everything they sang and played was in the simple 5-tone scale of
6:7:8:9:10:12.

Petr

PS: I forgot to mention this was not "a capella".

> > You're right, throat singing doesn't begin to count (though it
> > is cool). You snipped the part where I wrote "tonal form with
> > saturated 7-limit chords". Not that it would have to be tonal
> > in the way or to the extent that b-shop is, and not that the
> > chords would *have* to be saturated, but it should have harmonic
> > forms rich enough to justify a term like "7-limit".
>
> I don't know if this is what you meant but I can highly recommend
> listening to Tanzanian folk music, especially the way it was
> performed by the "Master Musicians of Tanzania" with their lead
> singer Hukwe Zawose. Almost everything they sang and played was in
> the simple 5-tone scale of 6:7:8:9:10:12.

Hi Petr,

I have this album

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000000HPN/

It's great, and probably the most 7-limit thing I know of
outside of b-shop.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G Hjelmstad"
<paul.hjelmstad@...> wrote:
>
> Just a general question -
>
> Has anyone ever determined the type of tuning used in a capella
singing
> including barbershop quartet singing - by using an oscilloscope or
> other measuring device?
>
> Is it closest to equal temperament, just intonation, meantone, or
> Pythagorean? Or does it vary . . .
>
And now to throw a curve - I would say, for the more difficult
choral singing - such as the Howell's Requiem which we did last
night, without accompaniment, that the form of tuning is 3-limit
Pythagorean. In other words, whole steps are all 9/8, fifths are
all 3/2 etc. I know many of you would disagree with this, and the
truth is, I might be wrong, its probably essentially equal tempered.

I think that with choirs, everyone has a little vibrato, and with
some wavering in the voice that to get close to temperament is
probably what happens. There is also the "chorus effect", that is,
not everyone is on exactly the same pitch, so you get a block
of sound for a voice-part. But think of it this way - if whole
steps are all 9/8, diatonic half-steps 256/243 (90 cents) and
chromatic half steps 2187/2048 (114 cents), you are pretty close
to tempered. It could be that with muscular-memory in the voice
it is really equal-tempered, but could stray enough to be kind
of between Pythagorean and equal tempered. Anyway if you saw some
of the chords in the Howell's, there's no way it could be
a form of just, I don't think...

I have caught some of this on other recordings to from this area. with harmonics played on strings like a berimbou ( don't know spelling of this off hand)
There has been speculation that some of the pentatonic in a broader area might be derived from a two 5-6-7 a whole tone apart. in Angola there are publications showing that a certain tribe which escapes me at the moment used harmonic series concentrating on the 7-9-11

tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>
> Message: 22 > Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:02:46 +0100
> From: Petr Par�zek <p.parizek@chello.cz>
> Subject: Re: Re: A capella singing
>
> Carl wrote:
>
> >> >
> I don't know if this is what you meant but I can highly recommend listening
> to Tanzanian folk music, especially the way it was performed by the "Master
> Musicians of Tanzania" with their lead singer Hukwe Zawose. Almost
> everything they sang and played was in the simple 5-tone scale of
> 6:7:8:9:10:12.
>
> Petr
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 23 > Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:04:12 +0100
> From: Petr Par�zek <p.parizek@chello.cz>
> Subject: Re: Re: A capella singing
>
> PS: I forgot to mention this was not "a capella".
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G Hjelmstad" <paul.hjelmstad@...>
wrote:

> Anyway if you saw some
> of the chords in the Howell's, there's no way it could be
> a form of just, I don't think...

What are some examples of the chords you are thinking of?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G Hjelmstad" <paul.hjelmstad@>
> wrote:
>
> > Anyway if you saw some
> > of the chords in the Howell's, there's no way it could be
> > a form of just, I don't think...
>
> What are some examples of the chords you are thinking of?
>
I'd have to consult the score. He does these shimmering eight-part
chords, and does alot of raised fourths (and scales like C-Db-Eb-F-G-A-
B) which I call "melodic phrygean"

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G Hjelmstad"
<paul.hjelmstad@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul G Hjelmstad"
> <paul.hjelmstad@> wrote:
> >
> > Just a general question -
> >
> > Has anyone ever determined the type of tuning used in a capella
> singing
> > including barbershop quartet singing - by using an oscilloscope or
> > other measuring device?
> >
> > Is it closest to equal temperament, just intonation, meantone, or
> > Pythagorean? Or does it vary . . .
> >
> And now to throw a curve - I would say, for the more difficult
> choral singing - such as the Howell's Requiem which we did last
> night, without accompaniment, that the form of tuning is 3-limit
> Pythagorean. In other words, whole steps are all 9/8, fifths are
> all 3/2 etc. I know many of you would disagree with this, and the
> truth is, I might be wrong, its probably essentially equal tempered.
>
> I think that with choirs, everyone has a little vibrato, and with
> some wavering in the voice that to get close to temperament is
> probably what happens. There is also the "chorus effect", that is,
> not everyone is on exactly the same pitch, so you get a block
> of sound for a voice-part. But think of it this way - if whole
> steps are all 9/8, diatonic half-steps 256/243 (90 cents) and
> chromatic half steps 2187/2048 (114 cents), you are pretty close
> to tempered. It could be that with muscular-memory in the voice
> it is really equal-tempered, but could stray enough to be kind
> of between Pythagorean and equal tempered. Anyway if you saw some
> of the chords in the Howell's, there's no way it could be
> a form of just, I don't think...
>
I should add, that on the other side, it varies all the way
to meantone, that is 193-193-117.5-193-193-193-117.5, So it's in
the well between Pythagorean and meantone. It's also interesting
to note that 16/15 is 112 cents, not too far from 2187/2048 which
is 114 cents....The scale for Pythagorean is 204-204-90-204-204-204-90
I have heard it said that the ear cannot easily perceive anything
less than 10 cents, also the worst interval in meantone is still
smaller than 15/14, the worst interval in pythagorean is still bigger
than 21/20 etc.