shrutis: partial members in the 12-tone set?

Hello ALL, If I am right in inferring [from our discussion on the
shrutis] that the shrutis present a fuzzy picture of the Indian
microtone gamut, I feel instilled with boldness and courage to make
the following statements:

1. While the 12-tone set is a crisp picture, the 22-shruti is a fuzzy one.

2. shrutis are partial members in the 12-tone set. [in the fuzzy logic
sense.]

3. Such fractional membership values reflect the possibilities of
their presence. Note that these are NOT probabilities. Probabilities
would imply that we know how many shrutis are going to be there in any
particular case.

4. Such fractions are made up to fit a particular case. But,
ultimately, it is the relative strength of the aesthetic need for a
shruti that is important.

This has come to me as a flash on reading
http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/research/FuzzyLogicTutor/FuzzyTut.html

This is in spite of the fact that my knowledge of fuzzy logic is nil.
I am reporting the 'flash'with the hope that some knowledgeable
mambers will develop this approach to the study of shruti.

Regards,
Haresh.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@...> wrote:
>
> Hello ALL, If I am right in inferring [from our discussion on the
> shrutis] that the shrutis present a fuzzy picture of the Indian
> microtone gamut, I feel instilled with boldness and courage to make
> the following statements:
>
> 1. While the 12-tone set is a crisp picture, the 22-shruti is a
fuzzy one.

They are both equal in terms of fuzz.

> 2. shrutis are partial members in the 12-tone set. [in the fuzzy logic
> sense.]

Not really. Given any two ets, they will always have some things in
common, and some things which are contradictory. While it might make
sense to try a fuzzy interpretation of either, it makes equally good
sense either way. The 22edo is the smallest which is consistent
through the 11-limit, and one way to look at srutis would be to accept
any epimorphic 11-limit scale with reasonable constraints such as
connectedness as giving acceptable strutis; that's another sort of
fuzziness.

Haresh, and all interested tuning group Ladies and
Gentlemen:

My Dutch-Canadian microtonal musicologist friend
Siemen Terpstra has sent me a hard copy of his 38-page
unpublished paper on the Sruti system. I would like
to post it on the tuning list for all interested
parties to access and, if desired, to copy.

I presume that the first step should be to scan the
paper into a digital file, but I don't have a scanner.
If someone with a good quality scanner would like to
scan it carefully into a digital format, I can send
that someone a hard copy of the paper.

The final step would be to find someone who would
agree to post the 38-page paper on his or her website
for a significant amount of time, say for five years.

The paper is a quality piece of work with both text
and many diagrams.

I look forward to hearing from anyone and everyone who
would like to partake in this project.

-- Mark Rankin

--- Haresh BAKSHI <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hello ALL, If I am right in inferring [from our
> discussion on the
> shrutis] that the shrutis present a fuzzy picture of
> the Indian
> microtone gamut, I feel instilled with boldness and
> courage to make
> the following statements:
>
> 1. While the 12-tone set is a crisp picture, the
> 22-shruti is a fuzzy one.
>
> 2. shrutis are partial members in the 12-tone set.
> [in the fuzzy logic
> sense.]
>
> 3. Such fractional membership values reflect the
> possibilities of
> their presence. Note that these are NOT
> probabilities. Probabilities
> would imply that we know how many shrutis are going
> to be there in any
> particular case.
>
> 4. Such fractions are made up to fit a particular
> case. But,
> ultimately, it is the relative strength of the
> aesthetic need for a
> shruti that is important.
>
> This has come to me as a flash on reading
>
http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/research/FuzzyLogicTutor/FuzzyTut.html
>
> This is in spite of the fact that my knowledge of
> fuzzy logic is nil.
> I am reporting the 'flash'with the hope that some
> knowledgeable
> mambers will develop this approach to the study of
> shruti.
>
> Regards,
> Haresh.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
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Mark, if you can get someone to scan the pages into a PDF file, I will be
glad to put a link on my website.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Rankin" <markrankin95511@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 25 Mart 2006 Cumartesi 9:50
Subject: Re: [tuning] shrutis: partial members in the 12-tone set?

> Haresh, and all interested tuning group Ladies and
> Gentlemen:
>
> My Dutch-Canadian microtonal musicologist friend
> Siemen Terpstra has sent me a hard copy of his 38-page
> unpublished paper on the Sruti system. I would like
> to post it on the tuning list for all interested
> parties to access and, if desired, to copy.
>
> I presume that the first step should be to scan the
> paper into a digital file, but I don't have a scanner.
> If someone with a good quality scanner would like to
> scan it carefully into a digital format, I can send
> that someone a hard copy of the paper.
>
> The final step would be to find someone who would
> agree to post the 38-page paper on his or her website
> for a significant amount of time, say for five years.
>
> The paper is a quality piece of work with both text
> and many diagrams.
>
> I look forward to hearing from anyone and everyone who
> would like to partake in this project.
>
>
> -- Mark Rankin
>
>
>

Hello Mark, I am happy to offer my services.

Thanks and regards,
Haresh.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Mark Rankin <markrankin95511@...> wrote:
>
> Haresh, and all interested tuning group Ladies and
> Gentlemen:
>
> My Dutch-Canadian microtonal musicologist friend
> Siemen Terpstra has sent me a hard copy of his 38-page
> unpublished paper on the Sruti system. I would like
> to post it on the tuning list for all interested
> parties to access and, if desired, to copy.
>
> I presume that the first step should be to scan the
> paper into a digital file, but I don't have a scanner.
> If someone with a good quality scanner would like to
> scan it carefully into a digital format, I can send
> that someone a hard copy of the paper.
>
> The final step would be to find someone who would
> agree to post the 38-page paper on his or her website
> for a significant amount of time, say for five years.
>
> The paper is a quality piece of work with both text
> and many diagrams.
>
> I look forward to hearing from anyone and everyone who
> would like to partake in this project.
>
>
> -- Mark Rankin
>
>
>
> --- Haresh BAKSHI <hareshbakshi@...> wrote:
>
> > Hello ALL, If I am right in inferring [from our
> > discussion on the
> > shrutis] that the shrutis present a fuzzy picture of
> > the Indian
> > microtone gamut, I feel instilled with boldness and
> > courage to make
> > the following statements:
> >
> > 1. While the 12-tone set is a crisp picture, the
> > 22-shruti is a fuzzy one.
> >
> > 2. shrutis are partial members in the 12-tone set.
> > [in the fuzzy logic
> > sense.]
> >
> > 3. Such fractional membership values reflect the
> > possibilities of
> > their presence. Note that these are NOT
> > probabilities. Probabilities
> > would imply that we know how many shrutis are going
> > to be there in any
> > particular case.
> >
> > 4. Such fractions are made up to fit a particular
> > case. But,
> > ultimately, it is the relative strength of the
> > aesthetic need for a
> > shruti that is important.
> >
> > This has come to me as a flash on reading
> >
> http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/research/FuzzyLogicTutor/FuzzyTut.html
> >
> > This is in spite of the fact that my knowledge of
> > fuzzy logic is nil.
> > I am reporting the 'flash'with the hope that some
> > knowledgeable
> > mambers will develop this approach to the study of
> > shruti.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Haresh.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Hi Mark,

Nice to see you de-lurk! :-)

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006, Mark Rankin wrote:
>
> Haresh, and all interested tuning group Ladies and
> Gentlemen:
>
> My Dutch-Canadian microtonal musicologist friend
> Siemen Terpstra has sent me a hard copy of his 38-page
> unpublished paper on the Sruti system. I would like
> to post it on the tuning list for all interested
> parties to access and, if desired, to copy.
>
> I presume that the first step should be to scan the
> paper into a digital file, but I don't have a scanner.
> If someone with a good quality scanner would like to
> scan it carefully into a digital format, I can send
> that someone a hard copy of the paper.
>
> The final step would be to find someone who would
> agree to post the 38-page paper on his or her website
> for a significant amount of time, say for five years.
>
> The paper is a quality piece of work with both text
> and many diagrams.
>
> I look forward to hearing from anyone and everyone who
> would like to partake in this project.

Mark, I would have no trouble with the scanning,
if you can get the paper (or a clean photocopy)
to me. Contact me offlist for the snailmail address
if you don't have another (or better) offer closer
to you than Melbourne, Australia.

Regards,
Yahya

--
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I've been meaning to answer this post by Haresh...

Haresh, can you identify sruti `pitch-clusters` in my improved 79 tone scale
for use in Indian Music?

Cordially,
Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 11 Mart 2006 Cumartesi 3:02
Subject: [tuning] shrutis: partial members in the 12-tone set?

> Hello ALL, If I am right in inferring [from our discussion on the
> shrutis] that the shrutis present a fuzzy picture of the Indian
> microtone gamut, I feel instilled with boldness and courage to make
> the following statements:
>
> 1. While the 12-tone set is a crisp picture, the 22-shruti is a fuzzy one.
>
> 2. shrutis are partial members in the 12-tone set. [in the fuzzy logic
> sense.]
>
> 3. Such fractional membership values reflect the possibilities of
> their presence. Note that these are NOT probabilities. Probabilities
> would imply that we know how many shrutis are going to be there in any
> particular case.
>
> 4. Such fractions are made up to fit a particular case. But,
> ultimately, it is the relative strength of the aesthetic need for a
> shruti that is important.
>
> This has come to me as a flash on reading
> http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/research/FuzzyLogicTutor/FuzzyTut.html
>
> This is in spite of the fact that my knowledge of fuzzy logic is nil.
> I am reporting the 'flash'with the hope that some knowledgeable
> mambers will develop this approach to the study of shruti.
>
> Regards,
> Haresh.
>

I also have been meaning to answer to this post by Gene...

SNIP

> >
> > 1. While the 12-tone set is a crisp picture, the 22-shruti is a
> fuzzy one.
>
> They are both equal in terms of fuzz.
>

I think he meant fixed-tuning of keyboards. I hear Qawwali ensembles make
use of a 12-tone harmonium if I'm not mistaken.

As a side note, I have prepared an amateurish synopsis of Indian Sangeet a
long while ago in English that might interest some parties:

http://www.ozanyarman.com/files/Music%20of%20India.doc

> > 2. shrutis are partial members in the 12-tone set. [in the fuzzy logic
> > sense.]
>
> Not really. Given any two ets, they will always have some things in
> common, and some things which are contradictory. While it might make
> sense to try a fuzzy interpretation of either, it makes equally good
> sense either way. The 22edo is the smallest which is consistent
> through the 11-limit, and one way to look at srutis would be to accept
> any epimorphic 11-limit scale with reasonable constraints such as
> connectedness as giving acceptable strutis; that's another sort of
> fuzziness.
>

I consider my 79 tone system to be quasi-fuzzy... meaning that I consider
the static pitches as guidelines which can be interpreted in terms of strict
JI, or else, broad pitch-clusters evenly distributed throughout the octave.

Cordially,
Ozan

It will take a while before I can follow the 79-tone scale and
'listen' to it for shrutis. I will come back as soon as I can write a
few lines about it.

Regards,
Haresh.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> I've been meaning to answer this post by Haresh...
>
> Haresh, can you identify sruti `pitch-clusters` in my improved 79
tone scale
> for use in Indian Music?
>
> Cordially,
> Oz.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 11 Mart 2006 Cumartesi 3:02
> Subject: [tuning] shrutis: partial members in the 12-tone set?
>
>
> > Hello ALL, If I am right in inferring [from our discussion on the
> > shrutis] that the shrutis present a fuzzy picture of the Indian
> > microtone gamut, I feel instilled with boldness and courage to make
> > the following statements:
> >
> > 1. While the 12-tone set is a crisp picture, the 22-shruti is a
fuzzy one.
> >
> > 2. shrutis are partial members in the 12-tone set. [in the fuzzy logic
> > sense.]
> >
> > 3. Such fractional membership values reflect the possibilities of
> > their presence. Note that these are NOT probabilities. Probabilities
> > would imply that we know how many shrutis are going to be there in any
> > particular case.
> >
> > 4. Such fractions are made up to fit a particular case. But,
> > ultimately, it is the relative strength of the aesthetic need for a
> > shruti that is important.
> >
> > This has come to me as a flash on reading
> > http://arts.ucsc.edu/EMS/Music/research/FuzzyLogicTutor/FuzzyTut.html
> >
> > This is in spite of the fact that my knowledge of fuzzy logic is nil.
> > I am reporting the 'flash'with the hope that some knowledgeable
> > mambers will develop this approach to the study of shruti.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Haresh.
> >
>