Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Sagittal notation software?

To give it some more context: I sing in a university choir and I have managed to interest my choir director in performing some of my just intonation music. However he is a little baffled by my home-cooked notation which differs from the five-lines system, so I would like to produce a score using sagittal to meet him half-way. I need accidentals for pythagorean sharps and flats, lowering by 81/80 (once and twice) and for otonal 7ths and 11ths.

Of course I could just create a score without accidentals and add the accidentals by hand, but it would be cool if I could do it all-software.

On Mon, 6 Mar 2006, Magnus Jonsson wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I would like to produce some nice-looking sheet music that uses sagittal.
> Any software tips? Can abc or lilypond do sagittal for example? I'd like
> something free and preferrably text-based. My operating system is OSX
> 10.3.8, although I can get access to SunOS and Windows machines too.
>
> Magnus Jonsson
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

Hi Magnus.

I am developping microabc, a small free software tool to make easier to write microtonal music with ABC notation. It is a macros generator, to be used along a preprocessor like Guido Gonzato's abcpp and other ABC tools (abcm2ps, abcMIDI).

Binaries of ABC software for several operating systems can be found at:
http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/

The latest version of microabc (C source code) is always at:
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc.zip
Current version is:
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-2006-03-06.zip

Inside the archive, you will find `sagittal.fmt', a format file for abcm2ps with a PostScript version of the Sagittal-1.11 font (converted from `SagittalSAT.ttf').

The accidentals are accessible by their decimal character numbers (see file `SagittalMap.txt') like in:
_/66 for \!!!/
_/134 for \!
^/222 for /|||\

According to Dave Keenan, Sagittal font shall be updated soon (to 2.0 version). In this specific `critical' update, the position of some glyphs (its character code) will change. Then, I will update the .fmt file too, perhaps maintaining also a copy of the 1.11 version. Thus, I would suggest you use macros and a preprocessor to manage the accidentals, so that you can use the same ABC files in the future.

As microabc is in its beginning, I would like to hear some feedback from you.

All the best.
Hudson Lacerda

Magnus Jonsson escreveu:
> To give it some more context: I sing in a university choir and I have > managed to interest my choir director in performing some of my just > intonation music. However he is a little baffled by my home-cooked > notation which differs from the five-lines system, so I would like to > produce a score using sagittal to meet him half-way. I need accidentals > for pythagorean sharps and flats, lowering by 81/80 (once and twice) and > for otonal 7ths and 11ths.
> > Of course I could just create a score without accidentals and add the > accidentals by hand, but it would be cool if I could do it all-software.
> > On Mon, 6 Mar 2006, Magnus Jonsson wrote:
> > >>Hi all,
>>
>>I would like to produce some nice-looking sheet music that uses sagittal.
>>Any software tips? Can abc or lilypond do sagittal for example? I'd like
>>something free and preferrably text-based. My operating system is OSX
>>10.3.8, although I can get access to SunOS and Windows machines too.
>>
>>Magnus Jonsson

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🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@smartelectronix.com>

Hi Hudson,

That's excellent! Thank you for working on this. I am a programmer myself too so if there is any problem I might even dig into the code myself. I will let you know how I fare.

On Mon, 6 Mar 2006, Hudson Lacerda wrote:

> Hi Magnus.
>
> I am developping microabc, a small free software tool to make easier to
> write microtonal music with ABC notation. It is a macros generator, to
> be used along a preprocessor like Guido Gonzato's abcpp and other ABC
> tools (abcm2ps, abcMIDI).
>
> Binaries of ABC software for several operating systems can be found at:
> http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/
>
> The latest version of microabc (C source code) is always at:
> http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc.zip
> Current version is:
> http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-2006-03-06.zip
>
> Inside the archive, you will find `sagittal.fmt', a format file for
> abcm2ps with a PostScript version of the Sagittal-1.11 font (converted
> from `SagittalSAT.ttf').
>
> The accidentals are accessible by their decimal character numbers (see
> file `SagittalMap.txt') like in:
> _/66 for \!!!/
> _/134 for \!
> ^/222 for /|||\
>
> According to Dave Keenan, Sagittal font shall be updated soon (to 2.0
> version). In this specific `critical' update, the position of some
> glyphs (its character code) will change. Then, I will update the .fmt
> file too, perhaps maintaining also a copy of the 1.11 version. Thus, I
> would suggest you use macros and a preprocessor to manage the
> accidentals, so that you can use the same ABC files in the future.
>
> As microabc is in its beginning, I would like to hear some feedback from
> you.
>
> All the best.
> Hudson Lacerda
>
>
> Magnus Jonsson escreveu:
>> To give it some more context: I sing in a university choir and I have
>> managed to interest my choir director in performing some of my just
>> intonation music. However he is a little baffled by my home-cooked
>> notation which differs from the five-lines system, so I would like to
>> produce a score using sagittal to meet him half-way. I need accidentals
>> for pythagorean sharps and flats, lowering by 81/80 (once and twice) and
>> for otonal 7ths and 11ths.
>>
>> Of course I could just create a score without accidentals and add the
>> accidentals by hand, but it would be cool if I could do it all-software.
>>
>> On Mon, 6 Mar 2006, Magnus Jonsson wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I would like to produce some nice-looking sheet music that uses sagittal.
>>> Any software tips? Can abc or lilypond do sagittal for example? I'd like
>>> something free and preferrably text-based. My operating system is OSX
>>> 10.3.8, although I can get access to SunOS and Windows machines too.
>>>
>>> Magnus Jonsson
>
>
>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

To be clear and just:

0) Thanks must go to Dave Keenan who patiently renamed all glyphs in `SagittalSAT.ttf' so that I could convert it to PostScript and then make `sagittal.fmt' (a format file for abcm2ps).

1) To write a microtonal score using the Sagittal accidentals of `sagittal.fmt', one needs only one piece of software: abcm2ps <http://moinejf.free.fr>. It generates sheet music in PostScript format, from a source in ABC notation <http://abcnotation.org>.

2) microabc <http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc.zip> is a generator of macros for preprocessing -- with facilities like handling scala files and compute MIDI tuning/pitch bends. It is not a preprocessor itself (one can use the preprocessor abcpp <http://abcplus.sf.net>). microabc is useful to get independent control on both MIDI and PS output, generating automatically the macros needed to write microtonal music with the ABC tools.

Regards,
Hudson

Magnus Jonsson escreveu:
> Hi Hudson,
> > That's excellent! Thank you for working on this. I am a programmer myself > too so if there is any problem I might even dig into the code myself. > I will let you know how I fare.
> > On Mon, 6 Mar 2006, Hudson Lacerda wrote:
> > >>Hi Magnus.
>>
>>I am developping microabc, a small free software tool to make easier to
>>write microtonal music with ABC notation. It is a macros generator, to
>>be used along a preprocessor like Guido Gonzato's abcpp and other ABC
>>tools (abcm2ps, abcMIDI).
>>
>>Binaries of ABC software for several operating systems can be found at:
>>http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/
>>
>>The latest version of microabc (C source code) is always at:
>>http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc.zip
>>Current version is:
>>http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/microabc-2006-03-06.zip
>>
>>Inside the archive, you will find `sagittal.fmt', a format file for
>>abcm2ps with a PostScript version of the Sagittal-1.11 font (converted
>>from `SagittalSAT.ttf').
>>
>>The accidentals are accessible by their decimal character numbers (see
>>file `SagittalMap.txt') like in:
>> _/66 for \!!!/
>> _/134 for \!
>> ^/222 for /|||\
>>
>>According to Dave Keenan, Sagittal font shall be updated soon (to 2.0
>>version). In this specific `critical' update, the position of some
>>glyphs (its character code) will change. Then, I will update the .fmt
>>file too, perhaps maintaining also a copy of the 1.11 version. Thus, I
>>would suggest you use macros and a preprocessor to manage the
>>accidentals, so that you can use the same ABC files in the future.
>>
>>As microabc is in its beginning, I would like to hear some feedback from
>>you.
>>
>>All the best.
>>Hudson Lacerda
[...]
>>>On Mon, 6 Mar 2006, Magnus Jonsson wrote:
[...]
>>>>I would like to produce some nice-looking sheet music that uses sagittal.
>>>>Any software tips? Can abc or lilypond do sagittal for example? I'd like
>>>>something free and preferrably text-based. My operating system is OSX
>>>>10.3.8, although I can get access to SunOS and Windows machines too.
>>>>
>>>>Magnus Jonsson

_______________________________________________________
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🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

Hi Yahya,

I don't know the exact meaning of the Sagittal accidentals relative to Pyhtagorean tuning to set the pitchbends (as 12ET semitone fractions). I can look at the Sagittal paper later on, to prepare a MIDI version of that example.

Moreover, the meaning of Sagittal accidentals is different for each scale, so that there is no a unique general way to implement the pitch bends. Thus, microabc is needed to set macros for the pitch bends for each case.

I let you know when I have made the MIDI simulation for that example.

Best,
Hudson

Yahya Abdal-Aziz escreveu:
> On Wed, 08 Mar 2006, Hudson Lacerda wrote: > >>Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
>>
>>>I'd still like to see a microtonal abc example.
>>
>>http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/sagittal-example.abc.txt
>>http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/sagittal-example.ps
> > > > Hudson,
> > Now I'd like to *hear* it. ;-)
> > Regards,
> Yahya
> > -- '-------------------------------------------------------------------.
Hudson Lacerda <http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/>
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🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@smartelectronix.com>

Here is a slow SATB piece that I transcribed to abc with the fantastic help of Hudson. It is in just intonation.

http://magnus.smartelectronix.com/examples/walking4.abc

In pdf format:

http://magnus.smartelectronix.com/examples/walking4.pdf

In mp3 format (sorry about my out of tune singing):

http://magnus.smartelectronix.com/examples/Magnus%20Jonsson%20-%20Walking%20to%20Class%203.mp3

On Wed, 8 Mar 2006, Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>
>> 1) To write a microtonal score using the Sagittal accidentals of
>> `sagittal.fmt', one needs only one piece of software: abcm2ps
>> <http://moinejf.free.fr>. It generates sheet music in PostScript
> format,
>> from a source in ABC notation <http://abcnotation.org>.
>
> I'd still like to see a microtonal abc example.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
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>
>
>
>
>
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>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

Hi Hudson,

On Thu, 09 Mar 2006, Hudson Lacerda wrote:
>
> Hi Yahya,
>
> I don't know the exact meaning of the Sagittal accidentals relative to
> Pyhtagorean tuning to set the pitchbends (as 12ET semitone fractions). I
> can look at the Sagittal paper later on, to prepare a MIDI version of
> that example.
>
> Moreover, the meaning of Sagittal accidentals is different for each
> scale, so that there is no a unique general way to implement the pitch
> bends. Thus, microabc is needed to set macros for the pitch bends for
> each case.

Yes, I understand. I'm still unsure whether that
is Sagittal's greatest strength or its greatest weakness ...!

> I let you know when I have made the MIDI simulation for that example.

I look forward to hearing from you again!

> Yahya Abdal-Aziz escreveu:
> > On Wed, 08 Mar 2006, Hudson Lacerda wrote:
> >
> >>Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
> >>
> >>>I'd still like to see a microtonal abc example.
> >>
> >>http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/sagittal-example.abc.txt
> >>http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/abc/sagittal-example.ps
> >
> > Hudson,
> >
> > Now I'd like to *hear* it. ;-)

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

Yahya Abdal-Aziz escreveu:
...
> On Thu, 09 Mar 2006, Hudson Lacerda wrote: ...
>>Moreover, the meaning of Sagittal accidentals is different for each >>scale, so that there is no a unique general way to implement the pitch >>bends. Thus, microabc is needed to set macros for the pitch bends for >>each case.
> > Yes, I understand. I'm still unsure whether that > is Sagittal's greatest strength or its greatest weakness ...!
...

Maybe someone have a list of the effect (interval) of the main Sagittal accidentals for JI *in cents*? (I mean the deviation from the nominal pitch.)

That would save me the calculations from the ratios of large intervals shown in Sagittal paper.

--
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🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
> Moreover, the meaning of Sagittal accidentals is different for
each
> scale, so that there is no a unique general way to implement the
pitch
> bends. Thus, microabc is needed to set macros for the pitch bends
for
> each case.

This is true, but the difference is given (almost) entirely by a
single parameter - the size of the fifth in the given tuning. Then
you only need to know the power of the prime 3 contained in the
comma that each symbol represents.

For example the 5-comma symbol /| represents 81/80 = (3 x 3 x 3 x
3) / (2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 5), so it contains 3 to the power 4.

The 7-comma symbol |) represents 64/63 = (2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2) /
(3 x 3 x 7) so it contains 3 to the power -2.

The standard sizes are the untempered sizes and are relative to
pythagorean fifths, whose size is = log_2(3/2)*1200 ~= 701.955 c.

e.g. /| = log_2(81/80)*1200 ~= 21.51 c
|) = log_2(64/63)*1200 ~= 27.26 c

Now lets look at an example where we are not notating relative to
Pythagorean but relative to 12-equal. We know that 12-equal fifths
are exactly 700 c which is 1.955 c smaller than the pythagorean
fifth.

Therefore the 5-comma will be smaller by 4 times that difference.

/| = 21.51 - 4 * 1.955 = 13.69 c

And the 7-comma will be larger by twice that difference.

|) = 27.26 - -2 * 1.955 = 31.17 c

[Note so advanced users don't tell me I forgot something: If the
octaves are tempered, then you will have to take into account the
powers of prime 2 contained in the commas too. But this is very
rare.]

-- Dave Keenan

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@...> wrote:
> > Moreover, the meaning of Sagittal accidentals is different for
each
> > scale, so that there is no a unique general way to implement the
pitch
> > bends.
>
> Yes, I understand. I'm still unsure whether that
> is Sagittal's greatest strength or its greatest weakness ...!

When you figure it out, please let us know. :-)

But don't forget that most ears are nearly 10 times more sensitive
to errors in harmony, compared to melody.

And don't forget that historically the size of the conventional
sharp/flat is already variable, depending on whether you are in
Pythagorean, various meantones or 12-equal.

-- Dave Keenan

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

Dave Keenan escreveu:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>>Moreover, the meaning of Sagittal accidentals is different for each >>scale, so that there is no a unique general way to implement the >>pitch bends. Thus, microabc is needed to set macros for the pitch bends >>for each case.
> > > This is true, but the difference is given (almost) entirely by a > single parameter - the size of the fifth in the given tuning. Then > you only need to know the power of the prime 3 contained in the > comma that each symbol represents.

Very elegant!

(I was talking about Trojan usage however... Does the same hold true this case?)

Anyway, I am not yet confident with Sagittal to work on the intervals.

I think I should publish here the list of pitch bend values for public check-up before doing the implementation in microabc. I will compute the values from the rations given in *Figure 7* (page 13) of Sagittal paper <http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/Sagittal.pdf>.

I will use 12EDO (MIDI default) as reference for the pitch bends.

Hudson

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🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>
> Dave Keenan escreveu:
> > This is true, but the difference is given (almost) entirely by a
> > single parameter - the size of the fifth in the given tuning.
Then
> > you only need to know the power of the prime 3 contained in the
> > comma that each symbol represents.
>
> Very elegant!
>
> (I was talking about Trojan usage however... Does the same hold
true
> this case?)

Indeed it does. Trojan (or 12R) is merely a standardised subset of
symbols to be used in notating relative to 12-ET.

But if you know more about the intended tuning than merely its fifth
size you can do better. For example if you know it is a particular
equal division of the octave then after making the previously
described calculation (to take into account the tempering of the
fifths) you would then round to the nearest degree of that EDO.

However I understood that the tuning of the fifths in this case is
Pythagorean, so are you sure you want to notate it relative to 12-
equal?

> Anyway, I am not yet confident with Sagittal to work on the
intervals.
>
> I think I should publish here the list of pitch bend values for
public
> check-up before doing the implementation in microabc. I will
compute the
> values from the rations given in *Figure 7* (page 13) of Sagittal
paper
> <http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/Sagittal.pdf>.
>
> I will use 12EDO (MIDI default) as reference for the pitch bends.

Now I think I understand. It's not that you want to _notate_ it
relative to 12EDO, but that's what the pitch bends must be relative
to. In that case, don't forget that you have to adjust the fifths as
well, even though they have no accidental.

I would actually do the maths in two stages. First adjust the
nominals to their Pythagorean values and then apply the adjustments
for the accidentals as given relative to Pythagorean in Figure 1.

For example, if you keep the A's at concert pitch then the E's must
be bent 1.955 c sharp and the B's twice that. The D's 1.955 c flat,
the G's twice that, the C's three times that and the F's 4 times
that.

You also need to know that sharps and flats are worth 113.685 cents
in Pythagorean.

For tunings other than Pythagorean you also need to know that sharps
and flats contain 3 to the power 7 and so you must adjust them by 7
times the change in fifth size.

e.g. Relative to 12-equal, sharps and flats are 113.685 - 7 * 1.955
= 100 c as expected.

-- Dave Keenan

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

Sorry Dave (Beardsley),

Yet another post. :-(

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@...> wrote:
>
> Here is a slow SATB piece that I transcribed to abc with the
fantastic
> help of Hudson. It is in just intonation.
>
> http://magnus.smartelectronix.com/examples/walking4.abc
>
> In pdf format:
>
> http://magnus.smartelectronix.com/examples/walking4.pdf
>
> In mp3 format (sorry about my out of tune singing):
>
> http://magnus.smartelectronix.com/examples/Magnus%20Jonsson%20-%
20Walking%20to%20Class%203.mp3

Great work Magnus and Hudson!

I must apologise for the appearance of some of the sagittal symbols
when viewed onscreen. They will be sharp and crisp when printed at
300 dpi or better but, depending on your operating system and the
magnification at which you are viewing the PDF, you may notice that
some vertical strokes look wider than others or are fuzzy.

Neither I, nor the software I used to lay out the glyphs, knows much
about what is called "hinting", which is needed to get sharp images
when there are only a few pixels composing the symbols (as is the
case onscreen). But quite likely these wouldn't have survived the
conversion to postscript in any case.

I notice that the note-shafts don't seem to suffer from this
problem. I wonder why?

It's possible that the onscreen appearance could be improved
greatly, merely by ensuring that the symbols are always aligned on
whole points (1/72nds of an inch).

Hudson, would you be willing to try that. Is that under the control
of microABC or the user?

If that was done, then MS Windows users will probably get the
sharpest image at 133.33% magnification of the PDF, since I think MS
Windows is nominally 96 dpi and points are 72 dpi (96/72 = 133.33%).

Another possibility: Can postscript automatically substitute a
bitmapped version of the font in specific point sizes when
displaying onscreen. We already have bitmaps designed for all
symbols in the two most useful point sizes (one size is used by
Scala). We'd just have to put them into the format required by
poscript, if such exists.

-- Dave Keenan

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:

> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@> wrote:
> >> Moreover, the meaning of Sagittal accidentals is
> >> different for each scale, so that there is no a unique
> >> general way to implement the pitch bends. Thus, microabc
> >> is needed to set macros for the pitch bends for each case.
>
> I think I should publish here the list of pitch bend values
> for public check-up before doing the implementation in
> microabc.

Instead of pitch-bends-from-12-edo, how about just telling
us what ratios or cents values you associate with the
sagittal notation example?

I'd be happy to create MIDI files using Tonescape, but
i don't need to refer to 12-edo, all i need is the tuning
that you want.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

> > In pdf format:
> >
> > http://magnus.smartelectronix.com/examples/walking4.pdf
//
> Neither I, nor the software I used to lay out the glyphs, knows
> much about what is called "hinting", which is needed to get
> sharp images when there are only a few pixels composing the
> symbols (as is the case onscreen). But quite likely these
> wouldn't have survived the conversion to postscript in any case.

They should survive PDF, for sure. TrueType and OpenType
support hinting. The following might be helpful:
http://home.kabelfoon.nl/~slam/fonts/
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/TrueTypeHintingIntro.mspx

Here's a neat video on hinting:
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/content/video/TrueTypeHinting.wvx

Vista has some amazing typography features in it, BTW.

> I notice that the note-shafts don't seem to suffer from this
> problem. I wonder why?

Perhaps because they're rectangular?

> If that was done, then MS Windows users will probably get the
> sharpest image at 133.33% magnification of the PDF, since I
> think MS Windows is nominally 96 dpi and points are 72 dpi
> (96/72 = 133.33%).

It's not clear to me in what way Windows is 96dpi. My display
is 133dpi, and most displays are < 96dpi.

> Another possibility: Can postscript automatically substitute a
> bitmapped version of the font in specific point sizes when
> displaying onscreen. We already have bitmaps designed for all
> symbols in the two most useful point sizes (one size is used by
> Scala). We'd just have to put them into the format required by
> poscript, if such exists.

Bitmapped fonts are kinda lame.

-Carl

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

Dave Keenan escreveu:
[...]
> Indeed it does. Trojan (or 12R) is merely a standardised subset of > symbols to be used in notating relative to 12-ET.
> > But if you know more about the intended tuning than merely its fifth > size you can do better. For example if you know it is a particular > equal division of the octave then after making the previously > described calculation (to take into account the tempering of the > fifths) you would then round to the nearest degree of that EDO.
[...]

Good. This way the hard job can be left to microabc.

I would like more specific tips later. I will work on the JI symbols first. (But only after the birth of Sagittal-2.0 to save effort.)

> > However I understood that the tuning of the fifths in this case is > Pythagorean, so are you sure you want to notate it relative to 12-
> equal?
[...]

hmmm... really, depending on the implementation, this would not work because the pitches without accidentals.

I think I should use Standard MIDI Tuning to set the nominals as Pythagorean pitches, and then apply pitch bends to the pitches with accidentals. But this will not work on systems without Standart MIDI Tuning support.

Maybe it is better do both approaches?

Anyway, I am happy that this job can be automatized. After some work on the implementation, *to use* Sagittal notation will be easy.

Hudson

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🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

Dave Keenan escreveu:

> Neither I, nor the software I used to lay out the glyphs, knows much > about what is called "hinting", which is needed to get sharp images > when there are only a few pixels composing the symbols (as is the > case onscreen). But quite likely these wouldn't have survived the > conversion to postscript in any case.
> > I notice that the note-shafts don't seem to suffer from this > problem. I wonder why?

Simply: the score was generated as a PostScript file, which has no such `problems'. But when it is converted to PDF, ANY `strange' fonts are converted to BITMAPs. The stems of the notes (and all music symbols) are *not* implemented as fonts, but as PostScript operators, thus they are not converted to bitmap.

Dave, have you tried fontforge? I recall there were some small alignment problems in Sagittal font (nearly vertical/horizontal lines instead of trully vertical/horizontal...). I didn't change anything however.

> > It's possible that the onscreen appearance could be improved > greatly, merely by ensuring that the symbols are always aligned on > whole points (1/72nds of an inch). > > Hudson, would you be willing to try that. Is that under the control > of microABC or the user?

I guess this is not very feasible because of internal resizing (magnification) of the graphics by abcm2ps. Also I don't know the precise effects of the bitmap conversion.

> Another possibility: Can postscript automatically substitute a > bitmapped version of the font in specific point sizes when > displaying onscreen. We already have bitmaps designed for all > symbols in the two most useful point sizes (one size is used by > Scala). We'd just have to put them into the format required by > poscript, if such exists.

Maybe I can work on a `direct' PostScript implementation of the glyphs, without use any font. This would avoid the bitmap conversion, and the quality will be the same for Sagittal symbols and all more. (Again, I would do this only with Sagittal-2.0.)

Hudson

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🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

Carl Lumma escreveu:
> They should survive PDF, for sure. TrueType and OpenType
> support hinting.

It seems that PostScript fonts don't. Am I correct?

Hudson

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🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

Carl Lumma escreveu:
> They should survive PDF, for sure. TrueType and OpenType
> support hinting.

It seems that PostScript fonts don't. I am correct?

Hudson

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🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>
> Carl Lumma escreveu:
> > They should survive PDF, for sure. TrueType and OpenType
> > support hinting.
>
> It seems that PostScript fonts don't. Am I correct?

No. Postscript type 1 has its own form of hinting which as
apparently far easier to specify than TrueType hinting.

TrueType hinting (grid matching) can work miracles because it is a
full programming language that can move control points in any way.
The down side is that you need to study and experiment for a long
time to understand how to use it. Maybe half a dozen people in the
world can really do it.

Postscript type 1 hinting is far less powerful, but far more
tractable.

Thanks for those links Carl.

Fontographer (~US$350) (now owned by FontLab) lets you hint
Postscript type 1 fonts.

The FontLab software (~US$650) provides a kind of compromise. It
gives a user interface that lets you hint TrueType fonts in a way
similar to Postscript type 1 font hinting and then generates the
program for you.

I really liked the (old?) Mac system where you could bundle the
outline font with a bunch of bitmaps, in effect saying, "Look, if
you're rendering it at this few pixels-per-em, here are the exact
pixels I want turned on". None of this stuffing around telling it
how to move the control points of the outline to indirectly cause it
to turn on the right pixels. But then again, that didn't allow
greyscale antialiasing.

-- Dave Keenan

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

Dave Keenan escreveu:
> No. Postscript type 1 has its own form of hinting which as > apparently far easier to specify than TrueType hinting.
> > TrueType hinting (grid matching) can work miracles because it is a > full programming language that can move control points in any way. > The down side is that you need to study and experiment for a long > time to understand how to use it. Maybe half a dozen people in the > world can really do it.
> > Postscript type 1 hinting is far less powerful, but far more > tractable.

Thanks for the info.

Indeed:
http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/overview.html
http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/overview.html#Hints
http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/hinting.html
http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/hintsmenu.html#AutoHint

On PS fonts:

<<<<
FontForge can usually figure out a reasonable set of stem hints (a process called autohinting), but some glyphs are too complex for it and it can make bad choices. It also provides a mode for you to override its choices.
>>>>

BTOH:

<<<<
FontForge's hinting of True Type (properly called "instructing") is very primitive, and is based on the stem hints also used by PostScript. It uses these hints to determine which points to move and where to move them. It also supports the concept of diagonal stems and hints them so they will have approximately the same width. It does a little extra work, trying to detect serifs that are attached to vertical stems and providing hints for them as well. It also uses the equivalent of the PostScript BlueValues to generate cvt entries that force glyphs to have the same height at small pointsizes.
>>>>

Cheers.
Hudson

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🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@gmail.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

Carl Lumma escreveu:
>>Dave, have you tried fontforge?
> > > If you look at the home page, he says his hinting
> sucks.
> > -Carl

For TrueType fonts, but we were talking about the *PostScript* font used in the Sagittal examples made with abcm2ps and `sagittal.fmt'.

Hudson

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🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > But when it is converted to PDF, ANY `strange' fonts are
> > converted to BITMAPs.
>
> Any TrueType font should be embedded in the PDF file, if
> you've set your conversion profile correctly. Are you
> using Adobe's converter, or GSView, or...?

Hi Carl,

Just so's you know. Hudson is actually using postscript version of
the Sagittal font, converted from the TrueType. But I know that's
irrelevant to your point, which is a good one.

If you look at
http://magnus.smartelectronix.com/examples/walking4.pdf
and zoom in to about 2400%, you will see that it clearly _has_
embedded the Sagittals as bitmaps (at around 600 dpi) while the
notes are clearly outlines.

I agree there should be an option to force it to embed the Sagittal
font (whether it be a Postscript font or TrueType).

But embedding the font will not solve the aliasing or grid matching
problem when displayed at few pixels-per-em (i.e. at normal size on
screens).

You asked earlier in what sense MSWindows screens are 96 dpi. Only
in the sense that when it displays something that it considers to be
say 3 points in size, at 100%, it covers 4 pixels. So I guess I
shouldn't have said it was 96 dpi, only that it uses 1.33.. pixels
per point. But now that I think about it, my assertion that PDF's
should therefore look better at 133.33% on MSWindows does not follow
from that at all. Sorry.

Hudson has finally convinced me to take a look at FontForge (a Linux-
based font editor) which has hinting capabilities for Postscript
type 1 fonts (and which it also attempts to convert to TrueType
instructions, but the author admits to being unsatisfied with the
result). So I'm currently installing CygWin so I can run FontForge
on Windows and start learning.

I'm getting too old to enjoy learning new software (sigh). Someone
else want to do this? Your chance to have your name immortalised in
a font file. :-)

-- Dave Keenan

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@...>
wrote:
>
> On 3/10/06, Dave Keenan <d.keenan@...> wrote:
> [...]
> > TrueType hinting (grid matching) can work miracles because it is
a
> > full programming language that can move control points in any
way.
> > The down side is that you need to study and experiment for a long
> > time to understand how to use it. Maybe half a dozen people in
the
> > world can really do it.
> [...]
>
> Thanks for the compliment, I guess! I've been doing the hints for
> DejaVu (http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/) for a while and I think
> they're pretty successful. It does take a long time though...

Holy sh.. So there _is_ a god after all! ;-)

> Hmm, this is getting pretty off topic...

Not at all. Not if you are willing to hint the Sagittal font for us.
Oh please, Keenan!

-- Dave Keenan

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

Hi Dave,

> I agree there should be an option to force it to embed the Sagittal
> font (whether it be a Postscript font or TrueType).

There is such an option in PDF.

> But embedding the font will not solve the aliasing or grid
> matching problem when displayed at few pixels-per-em (i.e. at
> normal size on screens).

That's true.

> You asked earlier in what sense MSWindows screens are 96 dpi.
> Only in the sense that when it displays something that it
> considers to be say 3 points in size, at 100%, it covers 4
> pixels. So I guess I shouldn't have said it was 96 dpi, only
> that it uses 1.33.. pixels per point.

For some reason the whole industry uses dpi, even though
the i is not under their control.

> But now that I think about it, my assertion that PDF's
> should therefore look better at 133.33% on MSWindows does not
> follow from that at all. Sorry.

I didn't think so.

> Hudson has finally convinced me to take a look at
> FontForge (a Linux-based font editor) which has hinting
> capabilities for Postscript type 1 fonts (and which it
> also attempts to convert to TrueType instructions, but
> the author admits to being unsatisfied with the result).
> So I'm currently installing CygWin so I can run FontForge
> on Windows and start learning.

Oh god, not CygWin. What a nightmare.

I wonder what tool Keenan (the other one) uses for
hinting DejaVu (not to be confused with DjVu).

> I'm getting too old to enjoy learning new software (sigh).
> Someone else want to do this? Your chance to have your name
> immortalised in a font file. :-)

Only if I don't have to install CygWin. :)

-Carl

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

Carl Lumma escreveu:
[...]
[Dave Kennan wrote:]
>>Hudson has finally convinced me to take a look at
>>FontForge (a Linux-based font editor) which has hinting
>>capabilities for Postscript type 1 fonts (and which it
>>also attempts to convert to TrueType instructions, but
>>the author admits to being unsatisfied with the result).
>>So I'm currently installing CygWin so I can run FontForge >>on Windows and start learning.
> > > Oh god, not CygWin. What a nightmare.
> > I wonder what tool Keenan (the other one) uses for
> hinting DejaVu (not to be confused with DjVu).

http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Hinting

> > >>I'm getting too old to enjoy learning new software (sigh).
>>Someone else want to do this? Your chance to have your name
>>immortalised in a font file. :-)
> > > Only if I don't have to install CygWin. :)
> > -Carl

I would suggest install GNU/Linux instead (Debian or other).

Hudson Lacerda

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🔗Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@gmail.com>

On 3/12/06, Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com> wrote:
[...]
> I wonder what tool Keenan (the other one) uses for
> hinting DejaVu (not to be confused with DjVu).
[...]

I write straight-up TrueType instructions, like a man! I learned it
from Apple's online reference manual:
http://developer.apple.com/fonts/TTRefMan/

On 3/12/06, Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
[...]
> > Hmm, this is getting pretty off topic...
>
> Not at all. Not if you are willing to hint the Sagittal font for us.
> Oh please, Keenan!

Hmm, I'll see what I can do. Ideally I would have to write a font
program and a control value program and all that, which I've never
done because DejaVu inherited all its tables from Bitstream Vera, but
you should see some improvement even with very basic instructions.

There are a lot of accidentals, but it looks like they're composed of
references to simple shapes, so it should be easier than I thought.

BTW, is there a proposal to add Sagittal to Unicode?

Keenan Pepper

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@...>
wrote:
> I write straight-up TrueType instructions, like a man! I learned it
> from Apple's online reference manual:
> http://developer.apple.com/fonts/TTRefMan/

Awesome!

> Hmm, I'll see what I can do. Ideally I would have to write a font
> program and a control value program and all that, which I've never
> done because DejaVu inherited all its tables from Bitstream Vera,
but
> you should see some improvement even with very basic instructions.

Thanks Keenan,

That's wonderful! But please don't start in earnest yet. George and
I are due to release Sagittal 2.0 in a week or two. This will have a
few bugs fixed (thanks to Hudson Lacerda), a few glyphs deleted and
others added and the mapping to character codes changed. The fonts
currently on the website do not contain the full glyph set in any
case.

> There are a lot of accidentals, but it looks like they're composed
of
> references to simple shapes, so it should be easier than I thought.

Yes, the down symbols are just flipped references to the up symbols
so that cuts the number in half immediately. Then everything else is
composed of shafts and flags. The shafts come in 4 species: single,
double, triple and ex. And the flags come in 4 species: barb, arc,
scroll and boathook (straight, convex, concave and wavy). Each of
these 4 flag shapes comes in left and right sub-species which also
differ in width. Then each of these 4 shaft species and 8 flag
species may come in several varieties as required to make them fit
cleanly with certain other flags and shafts, to make the actual
accidentals.

> BTW, is there a proposal to add Sagittal to Unicode?

I think it's a bit early for that. It's happy to live in the private
use area from 61473 to 61695 (hex F021 to F0FF) for now.

One of us has to say it first: "Funny about our names huh?"

-- Dave Keenan

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@cox.net>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@> wrote:
> > One of us has to say it first: "Funny about our names huh?"
>
> You might as well - we've all been laughing about it behind your
> backs! :)
>
> But seriously, Keenan (as opposed to Mr. Keenan): what I find
> astonishing is the guitarist who has your name reversed - Mr.
Pepper
> Keenan...
>
> http://www.roughedge.com/features/down02.htm
>
> What a world, eh boys?

Hee hee. And here's Pepper "f*!@ing" Keenan's Jungian shadow, Dave
Pepper:

http://www.chameleon-
arts.co.uk/Pages/Weddings/PartyBands/DJs/PepperD.html

Aint Google grand.

-- Dave Keenan

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@cox.net>

🔗Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@gmail.com>

On 3/13/06, Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
[...]
> That's wonderful! But please don't start in earnest yet. George and
> I are due to release Sagittal 2.0 in a week or two. This will have a
> few bugs fixed (thanks to Hudson Lacerda), a few glyphs deleted and
> others added and the mapping to character codes changed. The fonts
> currently on the website do not contain the full glyph set in any
> case.

Okay. I just looked at it in FontForge and the only comment I have to
make is that it would be much easier to hint if there were points at
all extrema. From the Apple reference manual:

"A glyph outline should have points on extrema. That is, the curve
positions with minimum x-value, minimum y-value, maximum x-value and
maximum y-value should be marked by curve points."

If that's too much to ask, I can work around it, but it would be more
convenient.

[...]
> > BTW, is there a proposal to add Sagittal to Unicode?
>
> I think it's a bit early for that. It's happy to live in the private
> use area from 61473 to 61695 (hex F021 to F0FF) for now.

Well, there are a lot of totally useless characters in Unicode that
are less deserving than Sagittal, and there's practically unlimited
space outside the Basic Multilingual Plane. Someone should write up a
proposal sometime.

> One of us has to say it first: "Funny about our names huh?"

Yeah, spooky. Also, I'm working on a piece in the Keemun temperament.
Are there any good pieces in it yet? I understand it's sort-of named
after you. What's the story behind that?

Keenan Pepper

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@...>
wrote:
> Okay. I just looked at it in FontForge and the only comment I have
to
> make is that it would be much easier to hint if there were points
at
> all extrema. From the Apple reference manual:
>
> "A glyph outline should have points on extrema. That is, the curve
> positions with minimum x-value, minimum y-value, maximum x-value
and
> maximum y-value should be marked by curve points."
>
> If that's too much to ask, I can work around it, but it would be
more
> convenient.

I will ensure that is the case. Thanks for the info.

> [...]
> > > BTW, is there a proposal to add Sagittal to Unicode?
> >
> > I think it's a bit early for that. It's happy to live in the
private
> > use area from 61473 to 61695 (hex F021 to F0FF) for now.
>
> Well, there are a lot of totally useless characters in Unicode that
> are less deserving than Sagittal, and there's practically unlimited
> space outside the Basic Multilingual Plane. Someone should write
up a
> proposal sometime.

OK. Maybe you?

> > One of us has to say it first: "Funny about our names huh?"
>
> Yeah, spooky. Also, I'm working on a piece in the Keemun
temperament.
> Are there any good pieces in it yet? I understand it's sort-of
named
> after you. What's the story behind that?

Here's my version of it, briefly.

In 1998 I wrote up the results of a theoretical collaboration on
this list about that temperament, which at the time we just
called "chain of minor thirds". That might be a bit long, but at
least everyone knew immediately what you were talking about.

http://dkeenan.com/Music/ChainOfMinor3rds.htm

Pretty soon after that we decided to call it "kleismic" temperament
after the 5^6-kleisma that vanishes. It was called that for many
years, with the qualifiers "5-limit" and "7-limit" as required.

Much later Paul, Gene and others were going crazy renaming
everything in sight with cryptic or completely meaningless names or
names supposedly of the discoverer or promoter. I said I greatly
preferred names that carried some meaning for the uninitiated. I was
particularly impressed by an anatomy text that flatly refused to use
all the eponymous names for parts of the body. Jones's duct and
Smith's vessicle etc. But used names that gave clues to the
function, or at the very least the appearance. They had a glossary
in the back giving the correspondence with all the old eponymous
terms.

So you can imagine how I felt when I found that 5-limit Kleismic had
been renamed "Hanson" and 7-limit Kleismic was now "Keenan"!

I begged them to reconsider and their response was merely to use a
coruption of my name instead. Why that particular corruption, I
don't know. So now the first thing anyone asks about it is
presumably "Who is (or was) Keemun", and presumably someone
answers, "It's really Dave Keenan".

So I really couldn't win. They couldn't have all these temperaments
with meaningless or eponymous names and then this one whose name was
actually meaningful or descriptive in some way, now could they?

So now I just laugh and accept it, and admit that I'm guilty myself.

I proposed the name "Secor" for the generator of the Miracle
temperament, after its discoverer (in 1975) and also cryptically
as "SECond, minOR". And with George Secor I am guilty of agreeing to
the names "Spartan, Athenian and Trojan", for various overlapping
subsets of the Sagittal symbols, although I beg consideration of the
mnemonic value of the smallest simplest such set being
caled "Spartan", and "Trojan" being the one that smuggles symbols
based on just intonation into the tone-fraction world of
subdivisions of 12-equal.

-- Dave Keenan

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@> wrote:
>
> > So you can imagine how I felt when I found that 5-limit Kleismic
had
> > been renamed "Hanson" and 7-limit Kleismic was now "Keenan"!
> >
> > I begged them to reconsider and their response was merely to use a
> > coruption of my name instead. Why that particular corruption, I
> > don't know.
>
> Don't blame all this on me; it was Paul's doing. I am guilty of
> catakleismic, however.

Sorry.

But I'm over it now. Really. :-) And I'm curious to know why "Keemun"
specifically? I think Paul said it was he and Herman that came up with
it.

-- Dave Keenan

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@IO.COM>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006, Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@...> wrote:
>
> > So you can imagine how I felt when I found that 5-limit Kleismic had
> > been renamed "Hanson" and 7-limit Kleismic was now "Keenan"!
> >
> > I begged them to reconsider and their response was merely to use a
> > coruption of my name instead. Why that particular corruption, I
> > don't know.
>
> Don't blame all this on me; it was Paul's doing. I am guilty of
> catakleismic, however.

Which still sounds like a "cataclysmic" choice to me ...

Regards,
Yahya

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🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:
>
> Dave Keenan wrote:
>
> >
> > Sorry.
> >
> > But I'm over it now. Really. :-) And I'm curious to know why "Keemun"
> > specifically? I think Paul said it was he and Herman that came up with
> > it.
> >
> > -- Dave Keenan
>
> Paul had all the horogram charts for his article printed out in
> alphabetical order and needed something that would fit where "Keenan"
> used to be. So he asked for suggestions on the tuning-math list, and
> "Keemun" came to mind because it was one of my favorite varieties of
> tea. I suggested "Oolong" and "Darjeeling" for the other kleismic
> temperaments, but those never caught on.....

A variety of tea. I like that!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keemun_tea
So, everyone got that now. The next time someone asks, it's _not_ named after me.

-- Dave Keemun

Sagittal notation software?

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@smartelectronix.com>

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@smartelectronix.com>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@smartelectronix.com>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Magnus Jonsson <magnus@smartelectronix.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@gmail.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Carl Lumma <clumma@yahoo.com>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

🔗Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@gmail.com>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@cox.net>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Jon Szanto <jszanto@cox.net>

🔗Keenan Pepper <keenanpepper@gmail.com>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Herman Miller <hmiller@IO.COM>

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

🔗Dave Keenan <d.keenan@bigpond.net.au>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>