Do We Need Notation?

>
> For that matter, standard notation isn't 12-tET at all. It's
> meantone, and there's a lot more flexibility in it than it
> commonly gets credit for in the microtonal community.
>

Not just meantone. I just wrote a big "Pythagorean" piece in 12, 17 and 29. All notated with regular old # and b .

I like the idea of using "oral tradition" rather than / in addition to scores. It's true in the rhythmic domain as well. Some of my music uses crazy tuplets and complex rhythms, but I am more and more into the performer learning the rhythms by rote from a demo. This is music that many people would consider to be Notated with a capital "N"--yet perhaps it's best approached from the opposite direction.

Ah music. Always non-linearly flipping us to some unexpected zone.

I was just explaining to my guitar class the other day how in musics like
Flamenco and Rock, the superior form of notation is tab + a recording. The
tab tells you where to put your fingers and the recording has all the other
information: rhythm, tempo, tone, dynamics, nuance, articulation, etc. In
the case of a style like the blues the recording also has all the
information about microtonal inflection that is needed to reproduce it
accurately. In a style that you're very familar with, the tab is often not
even needed, as the instrumental configurations are evident.

In a new piece with unfamilar intonational and/or rhythmic complexity, I
would consider a midi rendition my best friend as I was learning it. I spent
a few minutes the other day entering the first page of a Babbitt guitar
piece into Sibelius so I could hear some strange nested tuplets rendered
exactly. If I had to record or perform it, I'm sure I would take the time to
enter the whole thing so I could play along with it for practice.

Notation is obviously limited. I explain to my guitar and voice students
hownotation came to be centered around voice and piano, but within the
tradition of meantone. It obviously doesn't apply perfectly to guitar.
Nor does it apply to barbershop perfectly.

Once that is recognized, and we realize that the notation isn't the
music, it is still useful, however.

Barbershoppers tend to call the music page, "the spots," meaning
the little dots on the page we use as a guide and reference.

For barbershop specifically, I think the best thing that could be
added to the notation is simply an indication of what part of the
chord each note is. Simply knowing when the baritone is on the
root, or the seventh is VERY useful. It will generally be up to the
bass to establish the harmonic movements, and basses are used
to singing relatively pythagorean. And actually, this information
is available in standard notation to anyone who knows enough theory
to analyze it.

The biggest issue in the barbershop world is preserving the tradition
of woodshedding by ear, and to keep ET trained pianists from doing
sloppy arranging without understanding the issues.

Check out Dave Steven's amazing description of the oral tradition
he learned barbershop from (although he also, for better or worse
relates to piano too). This is wonderfully entertaining as well:
http://stellent.spebsqsa.org/web/groups/public/documents/native/cb_00083.ram

Overall, I have to strongly agree that without the oral tradition
and recordings and live experiences of barbershop, the notation
would not have preserved this style. Just like certainly we have lost
some authentic aspects of traditional classical music, since the notation
does not cover everything.

And the worst part is when we get some dogmatic fellow who
thinks it is terrible that barbershoppers can't always pluck out their
parts on a piano by reading the score, and don't know how to
follow the written rhythms exactly. That sort of dogmatism is so
awful and naive and yet somehow I never see it coming.

-Aaron

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Wolf" <backfromthesilo@...> wrote:

> For barbershop specifically, I think the best thing that could be
> added to the notation is simply an indication of what part of the
> chord each note is. Simply knowing when the baritone is on the
> root, or the seventh is VERY useful. It will generally be up to the
> bass to establish the harmonic movements, and basses are used
> to singing relatively pythagorean. And actually, this information
> is available in standard notation to anyone who knows enough theory
> to analyze it.

There does exist a problem with ambiguity. It could help to use
meantone notation as a way of differentiating a 30:36:42:60 chord from
a 30:35:42:60 chord, for instance.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Wolf" <backfromthesilo@>
wrote:
>
> > For barbershop specifically, I think the best thing that could be
> > added to the notation is simply an indication of what part of the
> > chord each note is. Simply knowing when the baritone is on the
> > root, or the seventh is VERY useful. It will generally be up to
the
> > bass to establish the harmonic movements, and basses are used
> > to singing relatively pythagorean. And actually, this information
> > is available in standard notation to anyone who knows enough
theory
> > to analyze it.
>
> There does exist a problem with ambiguity. It could help to use
> meantone notation as a way of differentiating a 30:36:42:60 chord
from
> a 30:35:42:60 chord, for instance.
>

Very true Gene! But at this point, since it is not a
music that is controlled by overbearing composers
there's no way to say that it has to be one or the other.
Nobody can say one is right. And it is unlikely that
average singers could learn to differentiate with only
notation as a guide. So in the end, this leads back
to your original statement, that notation isn't the
solution. It might be nice to have a way to notate
that difference, but since most singers use notation
only as a general guide and a vague "the note is going
up" or "note is going down," I don't think such complex
notation would mean anything to the vast majority of
barbershoppers.

It would be wonderful to come up with a better system.
I think the notation should show these factors:
Comma movement of roots, key changes, vague or general
melodic motion of pitch, and harmonic content.
I could imagine a system in which different shaped
note-heads indicate whether a note is the root, third,
fifth, seventh, ninth, or other harmonic element.
Then have a single big symbol indicating comma shifts
of roots overall. Otherwise it could maybe be similar
to standard notation. What do you think?

-Aaron

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Wolf" <backfromthesilo@...> wrote:

> It would be wonderful to come up with a better system.
> I think the notation should show these factors:
> Comma movement of roots, key changes, vague or general
> melodic motion of pitch, and harmonic content.
> I could imagine a system in which different shaped
> note-heads indicate whether a note is the root, third,
> fifth, seventh, ninth, or other harmonic element.
> Then have a single big symbol indicating comma shifts
> of roots overall. Otherwise it could maybe be similar
> to standard notation. What do you think?

Saggital notation would be one approach. It starts from the point of
view that you can already notate the 3-limit in standard notation,
with seven nominals and sharps and flats. For the 5-limit, all that is
required is an extra comma symbol pair, for 81/80, the "5-comma". For
the 7-limit, we need another pair, for 64/63, the "7-comma". Since it
is a mathematical fact that this sufficies to notate anything in the
7-limit, you have the basis of a notation right there.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Wolf" <backfromthesilo@>
wrote:
>
> > It would be wonderful to come up with a better system.
> > I think the notation should show these factors:
> > Comma movement of roots, key changes, vague or general
> > melodic motion of pitch, and harmonic content.
> > I could imagine a system in which different shaped
> > note-heads indicate whether a note is the root, third,
> > fifth, seventh, ninth, or other harmonic element.
> > Then have a single big symbol indicating comma shifts
> > of roots overall. Otherwise it could maybe be similar
> > to standard notation. What do you think?
>
> Saggital notation would be one approach. It starts from the point of
> view that you can already notate the 3-limit in standard notation,
> with seven nominals and sharps and flats. For the 5-limit, all that
is
> required is an extra comma symbol pair, for 81/80, the "5-comma".
For
> the 7-limit, we need another pair, for 64/63, the "7-comma". Since
it
> is a mathematical fact that this sufficies to notate anything in the
> 7-limit, you have the basis of a notation right there.
>

I'm not so familiar with saggital. How's the best way
to find out more?

Anyway, this wouldn't seem to address the idea that the
important thing for each part is to know where they are
in the harmony, more than how that fits the key. In
other words, I think a barbershopper would rather think:
"I'm on the 7th of the 'down our way' chord" than to think:
"I'm on C, but the 7th flatter one, but then up a comma"

Again, if you haven't see the Dave Stevens video I linked
to earlier, check it out for understanding the way
barbershoppers think. He's entertaining too.

-Aaron

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Wolf" <backfromthesilo@...> wrote:
> I'm not so familiar with saggital. How's the best way
> to find out more?

Created by two of the illustrious (if now somewhat rare) tuning
community members, George Secor and Dave Keenan (with input from a lot
of others during discussions):

http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Wolf" <backfromthesilo@...> wrote:

> I'm not so familiar with saggital. How's the best way
> to find out more?

I spelled it wrong, sorry, it's Sagittal. To find out about it, follow
the link Jon gave. Incidentally, the 5120/5103-planar temperament I
mentioned is precisely what you get if you don't distinguish between
the 5-comma and the 7-comma in Sagittal, so it's easy to notate in
that system.

> Anyway, this wouldn't seem to address the idea that the
> important thing for each part is to know where they are
> in the harmony, more than how that fits the key. In
> other words, I think a barbershopper would rather think:
> "I'm on the 7th of the 'down our way' chord" than to think:
> "I'm on C, but the 7th flatter one, but then up a comma"

Yeah, a system with different shapes of notes depending on whether you
were root, fifth etc. does sound interesting.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Wolf" <backfromthesilo@...> wrote:
>

> Again, if you haven't see the Dave Stevens video I linked
> to earlier, check it out for understanding the way
> barbershoppers think. He's entertaining too.

A search on Dave Stevens on this list turned up nothing. Could you
give the link again?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Wolf" <backfromthesilo@> wrote:
> >
>
> > Again, if you haven't see the Dave Stevens video I linked
> > to earlier, check it out for understanding the way
> > barbershoppers think. He's entertaining too.
>
> A search on Dave Stevens on this list turned up nothing. Could you
> give the link again?
>

Sorry.

http://www.barbershop.org/web/groups/public/documents/pages/pub_cb_musi
c_definition.hcsp

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Wolf" <backfromthesilo@...> wrote:

http://www.barbershop.org/web/groups/public/documents/pages/pub_cb_musi
> c_definition.hcsp

People having trouble with that link can try:

http://tinyurl.com/luzet

> Yeah, a system with different shapes of notes depending on
> whether you were root, fifth etc. does sound interesting.

Kinda like shape note

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_note

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, a system with different shapes of notes depending on
> > whether you were root, fifth etc. does sound interesting.
>
> Kinda like shape note
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_note
>
> -Carl
>

Wow. Cool. I think I'm inspired to put coming up with a shape based
notation for barbershop on my long list of cool things I want to someday
get around to doing...

-Aaron