Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re: Africa/native american music

When we only had a single witness was a half century ago at absolute best, maybe a century for most.
I have had to give away xeroxes to members of tribes that although they were rarities to have grown up on the reservations, did not know or had hear one single song.
Yes there is plenty of Pow Wow and not much else, and the difference between tribes is often questionable.
As for intonation. the singing style is also marked by often a wide vibrato ( as you find in Korea lets say, at least in quantity) and often sung high in noise to pitch ratio as far as the quality of voice that is used.

I do agree that we can take a body and reverse engineer it as a valid method of scientific investigation. which is how i was able to figure the subharmonic series in some cases.
there are other sounds that look like the 8-10-12-13 series off hand. although i have not noticed any trend to use only certain intervals for certain types of songs, exclusively , even though there does appear to be some leanings. there are many beautiful and truly elegant melodies especially of my own tribe , the Chippewa/ojibwe, but the Menonomee are also a great treasure, the Lakota Sioux.
The Yaqui have interesting rhythmic things going on. These my father played me but only heard once or twice

Regardless our version of ethnic cleansing was far more successful than we still can admit.
much of these earliest recordings (edison wax) are at the southwest museum about 2 miles from my house

Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 22:48:29 -0000
From: "harold_fortuin" <
Subject: Re: Africa

Kraig,

Do you mean that we can't determine tunings used by a given Native American tribe/ethnicity because the songs remaining would only have been handed down by a single person at best?

What about looking at a group of songs from a given tribe, especially when transmission was not limited to a single person?

And while I'm sure much music has been lost forever, it's also true that some tribes are still presenting powwows and other celebrations to the public.

I myself have a few recordings, including music of the Taos pueblo made in recent times, and certainly a number of recordings new and old are available to the public from various tribes.

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

Hi Kraig and Harold,

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> When we only had a single witness was a half century ago at absolute best,
maybe a century for most.
> I have had to give away xeroxes to members of tribes that although they
were rarities to have grown up on the reservations, did not know or had hear
one single song.
> Yes there is plenty of Pow Wow and not much else, and the difference
between tribes is often questionable.
> As for intonation. the singing style is also marked by often a wide
vibrato ( as you find in Korea lets say, at least in quantity)
> and often sung high in noise to pitch ratio as far as the quality of
voice that is used.
>
> I do agree that we can take a body and reverse engineer it as a valid
method of scientific investigation. which is how i was able to figure the
subharmonic series in some cases.
> there are other sounds that look like the 8-10-12-13 series off hand.
although i have not noticed any trend to use only certain intervals for
certain types of songs, exclusively , even though there does appear to be
some leanings.
>
> there are many beautiful and truly elegant melodies especially of my own
tribe , the Chippewa/ojibwe, but the Menonomee are also a great treasure,
the Lakota Sioux.
> The Yaqui have interesting rhythmic things going on. These my father
played me but only heard once or twice

Kraig,

So you're saying that we still can hear some of
the authentic traditional music of these peoples?
Have any of them managed to maintain a
continuous tradition of their own music despite
the obvious difficulties?

> Regardless our version of ethnic cleansing was far more successful than
we still can admit.
> much of these earliest recordings (edison wax) are at the southwest
museum about 2 miles from my house

Was the edison wax material in time to capture
the old traditions of American First Peoples'
music? Or was it too little, too late?

> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 22:48:29 -0000
> From: "harold_fortuin" <
> Subject: Re: Africa
>
> Kraig,
>
> Do you mean that we can't determine tunings used by a given Native
> American tribe/ethnicity because the songs remaining would only have
> been handed down by a single person at best?
>
> What about looking at a group of songs from a given tribe, especially
> when transmission was not limited to a single person?
>
> And while I'm sure much music has been lost forever, it's also true
> that some tribes are still presenting powwows and other celebrations
> to the public.
>
> I myself have a few recordings, including music of the Taos pueblo
> made in recent times, and certainly a number of recordings new and
> old are available to the public from various tribes.

Harold,

Could you give me any links to the old recordings?

Regards,
Yahya
--
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🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

>
> Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 18:46:18 +1100
> From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" >
> >
> Kraig,
>
> So you're saying that we still can hear some of
> the authentic traditional music of these peoples?
> Have any of them managed to maintain a
> continuous tradition of their own music despite
> the obvious difficulties?
> the words of songs have been preserved the most, but truthfully ( and much to what the native American would rather present to the world) most of it is completely lost. Even the pow wow songs , as i mention have been influenced by other tribes, and or reconstruction on such models. Some tribes , the more remote the better, but there is no more remote in the US. Mexico has more remote areas, with some tribes still hanging on ( although the droughts of the last few years have forced most into the towns) there are no reservations, and the govt is probably, and always has been , quite antagonistic to such groups, failing to even acknowledge their existence.
> >
> Was the edison wax material in time to capture
> the old traditions of American First Peoples'
> music? Or was it too little, too late?
> These early recordings, are very important documents. often in a large tribe there might be 7 or 8 people who even knew these songs. with little or no interest in the generation after them learning, or wanting to learn the songs.
there are exception of course. the hopi seem to have preserved a fair amount, but only one person is allowed to record them for others to hear.
we are talking about 200 tribes, like 200 different nations. many of these have no recordings to fall back on .
most of what we hear are newer songs, yet enthnomusicologist might point out that we do not no how old the songs are that are recorded, or how long such song lasted before.
Some cultures renew their songs maybe every fifty years, although still they are based on older material.
let us remember that the holocausts was based on the treatment of the American Indians. the Nazis studied such fine individuals as Kit Carson.

Most tribes share traditions at this point, those who don't know ask others in other tribes what they do. for example , even though my own tribe did sweat lodges, my own knowledge of it exist from other tribes. these songs, being highly sacred within the Chippewa were not recorded for this reason, as as far as i know are gone. that there are pictures of how they constructed their own made it that i have been able to preserve this element.
all else has been communicated through the process of the ceremony, but there are big holes. still one of the most powerful activites i have been involved in.
Harold is right to point out the predominance of pentatonic melodies. Many of these though appear to be on quite different one, as well as as much as 30% of some tribes might be outside of this. I tend to look at each one individually and go fro the oldest sources one can get.

This music though was and continues to be influential, but a bit too lengthy to go into this.

On the other hand , i have a grandmother who was a serb, an opposite problem these days

>
> >
>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

🔗harold_fortuin <harold_fortuin@yahoo.com>

Yahya,

Here are some resources to help you find audio recordings.

There aren't many on the web that I've found - living in the US,
it's generally easier to go to an institution like a museum or Native
cultural event (pow-wow, say) to buy recordings. I certainly wish
more mp3s and similar files were posted on the web!

Of course it's easier to find more modernized, commercialized forms
of the music - flute player Carlos Nakai is one exmaple.

Searching on "Native American" AND music, or "American Indian" and
Music should send you to commercial sites.

Of course, some religious music of theirs is not supposed to be heard
by outsiders too.

-- the US Library of Congress
http://www.loc.gov/folklife/folkcat.html
-- find commercial recordings
http://lcweb5.loc.gov/cgi-bin/starfinder/1282286/sonic.txt?action=-
oyQT

-- lists of Native American tribes - to help pin down a particular
tribe's music
http://www.native-languages.org/languages.htm
http://www.indians.org/Resource/FedTribes99/fedtribes99.html

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Kraig and Harold,
>
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Kraig Grady wrote:
> >
> > When we only had a single witness was a half century ago at
absolute best,
> maybe a century for most.
> > I have had to give away xeroxes to members of tribes that
although they
> were rarities to have grown up on the reservations, did not know or
had hear
> one single song.
> > Yes there is plenty of Pow Wow and not much else, and the
difference
> between tribes is often questionable.
> > As for intonation. the singing style is also marked by often a
wide
> vibrato ( as you find in Korea lets say, at least in quantity)
> > and often sung high in noise to pitch ratio as far as the
quality of
> voice that is used.
> >
> > I do agree that we can take a body and reverse engineer it as a
valid
> method of scientific investigation. which is how i was able to
figure the
> subharmonic series in some cases.
> > there are other sounds that look like the 8-10-12-13 series off
hand.
> although i have not noticed any trend to use only certain intervals
for
> certain types of songs, exclusively , even though there does appear
to be
> some leanings.
> >
> > there are many beautiful and truly elegant melodies especially of
my own
> tribe , the Chippewa/ojibwe, but the Menonomee are also a great
treasure,
> the Lakota Sioux.
> > The Yaqui have interesting rhythmic things going on. These my
father
> played me but only heard once or twice
>
> Kraig,
>
> So you're saying that we still can hear some of
> the authentic traditional music of these peoples?
> Have any of them managed to maintain a
> continuous tradition of their own music despite
> the obvious difficulties?
>
>
> > Regardless our version of ethnic cleansing was far more
successful than
> we still can admit.
> > much of these earliest recordings (edison wax) are at the
southwest
> museum about 2 miles from my house
>
> Was the edison wax material in time to capture
> the old traditions of American First Peoples'
> music? Or was it too little, too late?
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 22:48:29 -0000
> > From: "harold_fortuin" <
> > Subject: Re: Africa
> >
> > Kraig,
> >
> > Do you mean that we can't determine tunings used by a given Native
> > American tribe/ethnicity because the songs remaining would only
have
> > been handed down by a single person at best?
> >
> > What about looking at a group of songs from a given tribe,
especially
> > when transmission was not limited to a single person?
> >
> > And while I'm sure much music has been lost forever, it's also
true
> > that some tribes are still presenting powwows and other
celebrations
> > to the public.
> >
> > I myself have a few recordings, including music of the Taos pueblo
> > made in recent times, and certainly a number of recordings new and
> > old are available to the public from various tribes.
>
> Harold,
>
> Could you give me any links to the old recordings?
>
> Regards,
> Yahya
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.2/274 - Release Date:
3/3/06
>