Africa

Hey, you know what, I was thinking about the tuning list discussions, and I realized that I have rarely, if ever, seen any sort of posts about tunings from African countries. Much of the list chat is about Arabic, Turkish, European, and Indian tunings, but what has transpired down the years in African countries? And, I really know next to nothing about the subject...it's a big continent, with a lot of different cultures, and I'm sure there must be a lot of different instruments and ways of playing and tuning. I had a book once, "Africa and the Blues," which was somewhat interesting, but the way it was written was very poor, so I dropped it...think I'll get it again.
Anyway, I'm curious to see if anybody has any info or insights...best...HHH
microstick.net

On 2/27/06, Neil Haverstick <microstick@msn.com> wrote:
> Hey, you know what, I was thinking about the tuning list discussions, and
> I realized that I have rarely, if ever, seen any sort of posts about tunings
> from African countries. Much of the list chat is about Arabic, Turkish,
[...]

I totally agree. The scales of Mother Africa have been neglected.

Apparently the Mande balafon uses something close to 7-EDO:
http://tcd.freehosting.net/djembemande/bala.html
But perhaps with significant deviations:
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/scale_africa.html

I'll go and see if FSU's music library has anything on the subject.

Keenan

Certainly I'd enjoy seeing more on this list from anyone exploring
African music as well - especially those venturing into music that's
farther from the mainstream African-(pan)American popular musics.

But even more remote to most of our ears, I'll venture, are the
traditional styles of Native American music - despite the fact that
many of us are likely a short drive away from a reservation or
cultural center.

A quick Internet search of mine did not come up with especially good
links on the topic of tuning in Native American musics, or I'd have
posted 'em here.

From my own very limited experience, from a few recordings and
sporadic visits to pow-wows, etc., I would concur with analyses
speaking about the use of pentatonic scales, but I think it's near
useless to reduce traditional vocal styles, full of rich pitch
slides, tonal modulations, heterophonic group singing, etc. to 'raw'
MIDI files built straight from notation and present this as
illuminating material about this music.

I hope someone more expert in this area could reply with good links
and audio and/or video examples.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@...>
wrote:
>
> On 2/27/06, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:
> > Hey, you know what, I was thinking about the tuning list
discussions, and
> > I realized that I have rarely, if ever, seen any sort of posts
about tunings
> > from African countries. Much of the list chat is about Arabic,
Turkish,
> [...]
>
> I totally agree. The scales of Mother Africa have been neglected.
>
> Apparently the Mande balafon uses something close to 7-EDO:
> http://tcd.freehosting.net/djembemande/bala.html
> But perhaps with significant deviations:
> http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/scale_africa.html
>
> I'll go and see if FSU's music library has anything on the subject.
>
> Keenan
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "harold_fortuin" <harold_fortuin@...>
wrote:

> I hope someone more expert in this area could reply with good links
> and audio and/or video examples.

There are of course examples of music influenced by American Indians,
such as Macdowell's Indian Suite. Thurlow Lieurance's By the Waters of
Minnetonka was the product his interest in collecting and preserving
Indian music, and was a riff on a Sioux love song he recorded in 1911
on the Crow reservation in Montana.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "harold_fortuin" <harold_fortuin@>
> wrote:
>
> > I hope someone more expert in this area could reply with good
links
> > and audio and/or video examples.
>
> There are of course examples of music influenced by American
Indians,
> such as Macdowell's Indian Suite. Thurlow Lieurance's By the Waters
of
> Minnetonka was the product his interest in collecting and preserving
> Indian music, and was a riff on a Sioux love song he recorded in
1911
> on the Crow reservation in Montana.
>

Fillmore, John Comfort. A Study of Indian Music. The Century. 02.1894

http://tinyurl.com/q7mre

Hi Neil,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@...> wrote:
>
> Hey, you know what, I was thinking about the tuning
> list discussions, and I realized that I have rarely,
> if ever, seen any sort of posts about tunings from
> African countries. Much of the list chat is about Arabic,
> Turkish, European, and Indian tunings, but what has
> transpired down the years in African countries? And,
> I really know next to nothing about the subject...
> it's a big continent, with a lot of different cultures,
> and I'm sure there must be a lot of different instruments
> and ways of playing and tuning.

I posted something here, i think just a few months ago,
about the vocal polyphony of the pygmies.

> I had a book once, "Africa and the Blues," which was
> somewhat interesting, but the way it was written was
> very poor, so I dropped it...think I'll get it again.
> Anyway, I'm curious to see if anybody has any info
> or insights...best...HHH
> microstick.net

The book _Deep Blues_, by Robert Palmer (IIRC), is
very well-written, and has a bit of discussion of not
only possible African influences on the blues, but also
microtonality in the blues.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

I saw the film Atanarjuat (The Fast Runner), about the Inuit people,
and I was excited because I heard there was Inuit throat singing.
There was a little bit of Inuit throat singing, which I thought was
disappointing, but later there was this background music that sounded
a LOT like Tuvan throat singing, which is very different. Well, when I
saw the credits it turned out it was Huun-Huur-Tu, the most popular
Tuvan group. Which is a pity, because most other people who see the
film are going to think it's Inuit throat singing.

Keenan

i have some tuning measurements from Africa on my page here
http://anaphoria.com/depos.html
Mavila is the name of a village of the Chopi in Mozambique in which I showed Erv the measurements of and he subsequently used as a model to generate like scales.
Besides these unequal 7 tones elsewhere we find slendro like scales and have heard many songs close to Pelog.
The Africans and Indonesians can recognize some difference that i cannot tell via the "normal" deviations that i can see in the measurements.
Possibly it is a matter of gesture and accent that plays into this. i am not sure
In regard to native american tuning, the music is so far gone that to take measurements is futile.
even by the time of Frances Densmore who collected songs on wax cylinder, it was not possible to here songs done by groups of people at all.
just a few individuals who remembered them.
Interestingly though, it has been reported that there was a practice among some tribes that the women would keep up these high drones, in which the men would start their songs at a unison or one in the first couple of notes and then proceed downward. If one uses just ratios , one ends up with subharmonic series. I can not tell you how many of these melodies not only fit such a structure as far as choice of notes, but having played many of these ( being part Ojibwe) such tuning sounds more correct than any others i have been able to try.
>
> Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:29:00 -0700
> From: "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@msn.com>
> Subject: Africa
>
> Hey, you know what, I was thinking about the tuning list discussions, and > I realized that I have rarely, if ever, seen any sort of posts about tunings > from African countries. Much of the list chat is about Arabic, Turkish, > European, and Indian tunings, but what has transpired down the years in > African countries? And, I really know next to nothing about the > subject...it's a big continent, with a lot of different cultures, and I'm > sure there must be a lot of different instruments and ways of playing and > tuning. I had a book once, "Africa and the Blues," which was somewhat > interesting, but the way it was written was very poor, so I dropped > it...think I'll get it again.
> Anyway, I'm curious to see if anybody has any info or > insights...best...HHH
> microstick.net
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:21:39 -0500
> From: "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@gmail.com>
> Subject: 41-EDO
>
> It just occurred to me that 41-EDO is one of the best EDOs (it's the
> first one that represents all the ratios of the 9-limit differently
> and consistently) but I've never heard anything written in it. Anyone
> have any listening suggestions?
>
> Keenan
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:36:23 -0500
> From: "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Africa
>
> On 2/27/06, Neil Haverstick <microstick@msn.com> wrote:
> >> Hey, you know what, I was thinking about the tuning list discussions, and
>> I realized that I have rarely, if ever, seen any sort of posts about tunings
>> from African countries. Much of the list chat is about Arabic, Turkish,
>> > [...]
>
> I totally agree. The scales of Mother Africa have been neglected.
>
> Apparently the Mande balafon uses something close to 7-EDO:
> http://tcd.freehosting.net/djembemande/bala.html
> But perhaps with significant deviations:
> http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/scale_africa.html
>
> I'll go and see if FSU's music library has anything on the subject.
>
> Keenan
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:46:09 -0000
> From: "a_sparschuh" <a_sparschuh@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re:names for 3^-41, 3^-306&3^665 "satanic-comma" tamed on a pocket calculator
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@...> wrote:
> in
> /tuning/topicId_63911.html#63935
> the pythagorean 3-limit interval 3^-41:
> was baptized there as:
> and the "cocomma":
> "%" := 2^65/3^41 ~19.8..cents (to be read as interval, not percent)
> .........
> "the cocomma 2^65/3^41, is
> leading to the 53-comma"
> and labeled with the symbol "%"
> in order to dinstinguish it from the ordinary PC > 3^12/2^19 in Bosanquet-Helmholtz notation: "/".
>
> >> monz wrote:
>> > ... Excel i'm running can handle powers of 3
> >>> up to 3^646, which is renders as "1.6609E+308", that is,
>>> 1.6609 * 10^308.
>>> >
> >> It's probably using 64-bit IEEE754 floats with a maximum value of >> approximately 1.8e308. 3^647 is around 5.0e308.
>>
>> > if one has only pocket calculator precision available > then try instead of:
>
> 2^485/3^306 > simply
> (2^242.5/3^153)^2
> =((~7.06738826...�10^72)/(~9.989689...�10^72))^2
> in order to keep the powers in the exponents ratio below 100
> or in terms of > www.google.com > inherent arithmetics:
> (1 200 * ln((2^485) / (3^306))) / ln(2) = ~1.76973519 Cents
>
>
> Remarks on "Moritz Wilhelm Drobisch's" 3^665 comma:
> http://www.leipzig-lexikon.de/PERSONEN/18020816.htm
>
> Correctly spoken: that's the Pythagorean ratio: 3^665/2^1054 > (he obtained that interval already in the 19.th century
> by continued fraction expansion of ln3/ln2 series)
>
> Attend:
> 665 allows the prime factor decomposition: 19*7*5
> That enables to more handy reprensentations of the 665-comma
> in terms of Pythagorean intervals like:
> apotome, limma & Comma(PC) >
> (1)
> with help of the apotome (2187/2048):=3^7/2^11
> and 95=19*5 by the exponent-product-law we obtain:
> (2 187 / 2 048)^95 = 512.022351....
> that becomes if divided by 9 octaves > (2 187/2 048)^95 / 512 = 1.00004366....
> deliverning the tiny reminder of only ~0.0755754826..Cents
> by having used the decomposition > 3^665/2^1054:=(3^7/2^11)^95/2^9, short 665=7*95 conciesely
>
> (2)
> or similar we obtain applying limma > (256/243):=2^8/3^5
> likewise
> (256/243)^133 = 1 023.9553....
> which delivers also the same result as already above by.
> 1 024 / ((256 / 243)^133) = 1.00004366....
> or again ~0.0755754826..Cents also too at the end as already in (1)
> using the alternative decomposition > 3^665/2^1054:=2^10/(2^8/3^5)^133, short 665=5*133 conciesely
>
> (3)
> with the PC*apotome=(3^12/2^19)*(3^7/2^11)=3^19/2^30 >
> ((3^19) / (2^30))^35 = 16.0006985...........
> using 19*35=665 as an other possible exponent decomposition.
> Remark:
> Therefore 665et contains the popular choice 19et just 35 times.
>
> (4)
> 55*12+5=660+5=665
> constituting the ratio of:
> (3^12/2^19)^55 = 2.10708787......Pythagorean_Comma^55
> and 512 / 243 = 2.10699588.......octaved limma 2^9/3^5
> in demanding only the space of amounting an octave*limma,
> in order to reply on the tuners fundamentalistic question:
>
> What's "satanic-sharp" in devils ears? > Response:
> That's PC^55 above an octaved limma.
>
> Find yourself further alternative possible
> representations of 3^665 too, in terms of
> apotome, limma & comma, however you want!
>
> CONCLUSION
> What a dickens demonic
> Remind the devils mnemonic:
> for counting our "old nick"
> "lord-Harry" fiendly
> tamed arithmetically:
>
> (1) apotome^95 = 512.022351....=512*satanic-c, the 9 oct. view.
> (2) limma^133 = 1023.9553......=1024/satanic-c, the 10 oct. view.
> (3) (PC*apotome)^35 = 16.0006985....=16*satanic-c, the 4 oct. view.
> or > (4) PC^55/2/limma = satanic-c, the represantation within an minor 9th
>
> Beelzebub becomes so easy available determinated,
> even on scientific pocket-calculators instead > overfloating EXCELs limited capabilities, all done simply
> due to the prime defactorization trick 665=19*7*5
> or splitting that into the sum 55*12+5.
>
> have a lot of fun in veryfing yourself that numerical jokes
> by playing on the keys on your own private claculator
>
> kind regards
> yours sincerely
> A.S.
> p.s: > But who except "satan" himself will be yet able to discriminate an > sharp 5th of 3^666/2^1055=~1.50006548... versus the ordinary 3/2=1.5
> one, amounting about only 1/13 cents different in seize? >
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 19:01:15 -0000
> From: "harold_fortuin" <harold_fortuin@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Africa
>
> Certainly I'd enjoy seeing more on this list from anyone exploring > African music as well - especially those venturing into music that's > farther from the mainstream African-(pan)American popular musics.
>
> But even more remote to most of our ears, I'll venture, are the > traditional styles of Native American music - despite the fact that > many of us are likely a short drive away from a reservation or > cultural center.
>
> A quick Internet search of mine did not come up with especially good > links on the topic of tuning in Native American musics, or I'd have > posted 'em here.
>
> >From my own very limited experience, from a few recordings and > sporadic visits to pow-wows, etc., I would concur with analyses > speaking about the use of pentatonic scales, but I think it's near > useless to reduce traditional vocal styles, full of rich pitch > slides, tonal modulations, heterophonic group singing, etc. to 'raw' > MIDI files built straight from notation and present this as > illuminating material about this music.
>
> I hope someone more expert in this area could reply with good links > and audio and/or video examples.
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@...> > wrote:
> >> On 2/27/06, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:
>> >>> Hey, you know what, I was thinking about the tuning list >>> > discussions, and
> >>> I realized that I have rarely, if ever, seen any sort of posts >>> > about tunings
> >>> from African countries. Much of the list chat is about Arabic, >>> > Turkish,
> >> [...]
>>
>> I totally agree. The scales of Mother Africa have been neglected.
>>
>> Apparently the Mande balafon uses something close to 7-EDO:
>> http://tcd.freehosting.net/djembemande/bala.html
>> But perhaps with significant deviations:
>> http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/scale_africa.html
>>
>> I'll go and see if FSU's music library has anything on the subject.
>>
>> Keenan
>>
>> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
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>
> -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

I have heard mention that peoples of the Barbary coast of Africa practice an
indigenious version of Maqam Music. One may venture to presume that even the
simplest pentatonical scales from the this region came to resemble Maqams in
time due to the inter-continental influence of the Islamic Civilization.

It is safe to consider all of North Africa to belong to the Maqam Music
family, from Morocco to Ethiopia.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@msn.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 27 �ubat 2006 Pazartesi 18:29
Subject: [tuning] Africa

> Hey, you know what, I was thinking about the tuning list discussions,
and
> I realized that I have rarely, if ever, seen any sort of posts about
tunings
> from African countries. Much of the list chat is about Arabic, Turkish,
> European, and Indian tunings, but what has transpired down the years in
> African countries? And, I really know next to nothing about the
> subject...it's a big continent, with a lot of different cultures, and I'm
> sure there must be a lot of different instruments and ways of playing and
> tuning. I had a book once, "Africa and the Blues," which was somewhat
> interesting, but the way it was written was very poor, so I dropped
> it...think I'll get it again.
> Anyway, I'm curious to see if anybody has any info or
> insights...best...HHH
> microstick.net
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Kraig,

Do you mean that we can't determine tunings used by a given Native
American tribe/ethnicity because the songs remaining would only have
been handed down by a single person at best?

What about looking at a group of songs from a given tribe, especially
when transmission was not limited to a single person?

And while I'm sure much music has been lost forever, it's also true
that some tribes are still presenting powwows and other celebrations
to the public.

I myself have a few recordings, including music of the Taos pueblo
made in recent times, and certainly a number of recordings new and
old are available to the public from various tribes.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@...> wrote:
>
> i have some tuning measurements from Africa on my page here
> http://anaphoria.com/depos.html
> Mavila is the name of a village of the Chopi in Mozambique in which
I
> showed Erv the measurements of and he subsequently used as a model
to
> generate like scales.
> Besides these unequal 7 tones elsewhere we find slendro like scales
and
> have heard many songs close to Pelog.
> The Africans and Indonesians can recognize some difference that i
> cannot tell via the "normal" deviations that i can see in the
measurements.
> Possibly it is a matter of gesture and accent that plays into
this. i
> am not sure
>
>
>
>
> In regard to native american tuning, the music is so far gone that
to
> take measurements is futile.
> even by the time of Frances Densmore who collected songs on wax
> cylinder, it was not possible to here songs done by groups of
people at all.
> just a few individuals who remembered them.
> Interestingly though, it has been reported that there was a
practice
> among some tribes that the women would keep up these high drones,
in
> which the men would start their songs at a unison or one in the
first
> couple of notes and then proceed downward. If one uses just
ratios , one
> ends up with subharmonic series. I can not tell you how many of
these
> melodies not only fit such a structure as far as choice of notes,
but
> having played many of these ( being part Ojibwe) such tuning sounds
more
> correct than any others i have been able to try.
>
>
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:29:00 -0700
> > From: "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@...>
> > Subject: Africa
> >
> > Hey, you know what, I was thinking about the tuning list
discussions, and
> > I realized that I have rarely, if ever, seen any sort of posts
about tunings
> > from African countries. Much of the list chat is about Arabic,
Turkish,
> > European, and Indian tunings, but what has transpired down the
years in
> > African countries? And, I really know next to nothing about the
> > subject...it's a big continent, with a lot of different cultures,
and I'm
> > sure there must be a lot of different instruments and ways of
playing and
> > tuning. I had a book once, "Africa and the Blues," which was
somewhat
> > interesting, but the way it was written was very poor, so I
dropped
> > it...think I'll get it again.
> > Anyway, I'm curious to see if anybody has any info or
> > insights...best...HHH
> > microstick.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:21:39 -0500
> > From: "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@...>
> > Subject: 41-EDO
> >
> > It just occurred to me that 41-EDO is one of the best EDOs (it's
the
> > first one that represents all the ratios of the 9-limit
differently
> > and consistently) but I've never heard anything written in it.
Anyone
> > have any listening suggestions?
> >
> > Keenan
> >
> >
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:36:23 -0500
> > From: "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@...>
> > Subject: Re: Africa
> >
> > On 2/27/06, Neil Haverstick <microstick@...> wrote:
> >
> >> Hey, you know what, I was thinking about the tuning list
discussions, and
> >> I realized that I have rarely, if ever, seen any sort of posts
about tunings
> >> from African countries. Much of the list chat is about Arabic,
Turkish,
> >>
> > [...]
> >
> > I totally agree. The scales of Mother Africa have been neglected.
> >
> > Apparently the Mande balafon uses something close to 7-EDO:
> > http://tcd.freehosting.net/djembemande/bala.html
> > But perhaps with significant deviations:
> > http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/scale_africa.html
> >
> > I'll go and see if FSU's music library has anything on the
subject.
> >
> > Keenan
> >
> >
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:46:09 -0000
> > From: "a_sparschuh" <a_sparschuh@...>
> > Subject: Re:names for 3^-41, 3^-306&3^665 "satanic-comma" tamed
on a pocket calculator
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <gbreed@> wrote:
> > in
> > /tuning/topicId_63911.html#63935
> > the pythagorean 3-limit interval 3^-41:
> > was baptized there as:
> > and the "cocomma":
> > "%" := 2^65/3^41 ~19.8..cents (to be read as interval, not
percent)
> > .........
> > "the cocomma 2^65/3^41, is
> > leading to the 53-comma"
> > and labeled with the symbol "%"
> > in order to dinstinguish it from the ordinary PC
> > 3^12/2^19 in Bosanquet-Helmholtz notation: "/".
> >
> >
> >> monz wrote:
> >>
> > ... Excel i'm running can handle powers of 3
> >
> >>> up to 3^646, which is renders as "1.6609E+308", that is,
> >>> 1.6609 * 10^308.
> >>>
> >
> >
> >> It's probably using 64-bit IEEE754 floats with a maximum value
of
> >> approximately 1.8e308. 3^647 is around 5.0e308.
> >>
> >>
> > if one has only pocket calculator precision available
> > then try instead of:
> >
> > 2^485/3^306
> > simply
> > (2^242.5/3^153)^2
> > =((~7.06738826...×10^72)/(~9.989689...×10^72))^2
> > in order to keep the powers in the exponents ratio below 100
> > or in terms of
> > www.google.com
> > inherent arithmetics:
> > (1 200 * ln((2^485) / (3^306))) / ln(2) = ~1.76973519 Cents
> >
> >
> > Remarks on "Moritz Wilhelm Drobisch's" 3^665 comma:
> > http://www.leipzig-lexikon.de/PERSONEN/18020816.htm
> >
> > Correctly spoken: that's the Pythagorean ratio: 3^665/2^1054
> > (he obtained that interval already in the 19.th century
> > by continued fraction expansion of ln3/ln2 series)
> >
> > Attend:
> > 665 allows the prime factor decomposition: 19*7*5
> > That enables to more handy reprensentations of the 665-comma
> > in terms of Pythagorean intervals like:
> > apotome, limma & Comma(PC)
> >
> > (1)
> > with help of the apotome (2187/2048):=3^7/2^11
> > and 95=19*5 by the exponent-product-law we obtain:
> > (2 187 / 2 048)^95 = 512.022351....
> > that becomes if divided by 9 octaves
> > (2 187/2 048)^95 / 512 = 1.00004366....
> > deliverning the tiny reminder of only ~0.0755754826..Cents
> > by having used the decomposition
> > 3^665/2^1054:=(3^7/2^11)^95/2^9, short 665=7*95 conciesely
> >
> > (2)
> > or similar we obtain applying limma
> > (256/243):=2^8/3^5
> > likewise
> > (256/243)^133 = 1 023.9553....
> > which delivers also the same result as already above by.
> > 1 024 / ((256 / 243)^133) = 1.00004366....
> > or again ~0.0755754826..Cents also too at the end as already in
(1)
> > using the alternative decomposition
> > 3^665/2^1054:=2^10/(2^8/3^5)^133, short 665=5*133 conciesely
> >
> > (3)
> > with the PC*apotome=(3^12/2^19)*(3^7/2^11)=3^19/2^30
> >
> > ((3^19) / (2^30))^35 = 16.0006985...........
> > using 19*35=665 as an other possible exponent decomposition.
> > Remark:
> > Therefore 665et contains the popular choice 19et just 35 times.
> >
> > (4)
> > 55*12+5=660+5=665
> > constituting the ratio of:
> > (3^12/2^19)^55 = 2.10708787......Pythagorean_Comma^55
> > and 512 / 243 = 2.10699588.......octaved limma 2^9/3^5
> > in demanding only the space of amounting an octave*limma,
> > in order to reply on the tuners fundamentalistic question:
> >
> > What's "satanic-sharp" in devils ears?
> > Response:
> > That's PC^55 above an octaved limma.
> >
> > Find yourself further alternative possible
> > representations of 3^665 too, in terms of
> > apotome, limma & comma, however you want!
> >
> > CONCLUSION
> > What a dickens demonic
> > Remind the devils mnemonic:
> > for counting our "old nick"
> > "lord-Harry" fiendly
> > tamed arithmetically:
> >
> > (1) apotome^95 = 512.022351....=512*satanic-c, the 9 oct. view.
> > (2) limma^133 = 1023.9553......=1024/satanic-c, the 10 oct. view.
> > (3) (PC*apotome)^35 = 16.0006985....=16*satanic-c, the 4 oct.
view.
> > or
> > (4) PC^55/2/limma = satanic-c, the represantation within an minor
9th
> >
> > Beelzebub becomes so easy available determinated,
> > even on scientific pocket-calculators instead
> > overfloating EXCELs limited capabilities, all done simply
> > due to the prime defactorization trick 665=19*7*5
> > or splitting that into the sum 55*12+5.
> >
> > have a lot of fun in veryfing yourself that numerical jokes
> > by playing on the keys on your own private claculator
> >
> > kind regards
> > yours sincerely
> > A.S.
> > p.s:
> > But who except "satan" himself will be yet able to discriminate
an
> > sharp 5th of 3^666/2^1055=~1.50006548... versus the ordinary
3/2=1.5
> > one, amounting about only 1/13 cents different in seize?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> >
______________________________________________________________________
__
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 19:01:15 -0000
> > From: "harold_fortuin" <harold_fortuin@...>
> > Subject: Re: Africa
> >
> > Certainly I'd enjoy seeing more on this list from anyone
exploring
> > African music as well - especially those venturing into music
that's
> > farther from the mainstream African-(pan)American popular musics.
> >
> > But even more remote to most of our ears, I'll venture, are the
> > traditional styles of Native American music - despite the fact
that
> > many of us are likely a short drive away from a reservation or
> > cultural center.
> >
> > A quick Internet search of mine did not come up with especially
good
> > links on the topic of tuning in Native American musics, or I'd
have
> > posted 'em here.
> >
> > >From my own very limited experience, from a few recordings and
> > sporadic visits to pow-wows, etc., I would concur with analyses
> > speaking about the use of pentatonic scales, but I think it's
near
> > useless to reduce traditional vocal styles, full of rich pitch
> > slides, tonal modulations, heterophonic group singing, etc.
to 'raw'
> > MIDI files built straight from notation and present this as
> > illuminating material about this music.
> >
> > I hope someone more expert in this area could reply with good
links
> > and audio and/or video examples.
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Keenan Pepper" <keenanpepper@>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 2/27/06, Neil Haverstick <microstick@> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hey, you know what, I was thinking about the tuning list
> >>>
> > discussions, and
> >
> >>> I realized that I have rarely, if ever, seen any sort of posts
> >>>
> > about tunings
> >
> >>> from African countries. Much of the list chat is about Arabic,
> >>>
> > Turkish,
> >
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> I totally agree. The scales of Mother Africa have been neglected.
> >>
> >> Apparently the Mande balafon uses something close to 7-EDO:
> >> http://tcd.freehosting.net/djembemande/bala.html
> >> But perhaps with significant deviations:
> >> http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/scale_africa.html
> >>
> >> I'll go and see if FSU's music library has anything on the
subject.
> >>
> >> Keenan
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
______________________________________________________________________
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> >
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> >
> >
> > You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to
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> > of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the
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> > tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles
>

>
> From: "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@ozanyarman.com>
> Subject: Re: Africa
>
> I have heard mention that peoples of the Barbary coast of Africa practice an
> indigenious version of Maqam Music. One may venture to presume that even the
> simplest pentatonical scales from the this region came to resemble Maqams in
> time due to the inter-continental influence of the Islamic Civilization.
>
> It is safe to consider all of North Africa to belong to the Maqam Music
> family, from Morocco to Ethiopia.
>
> Oz.

I would certainly not affirm that last statement for all Ethiopians. In Ethiopia, Eritrea, and parts of Sudan, the classical lyric and epic accompanied song traditions are part of a continuum that predates any Maqam genre by a least a millenium. The tonal practice and the structure of the texts is quite unlike anything associated with Maqam musics. The principle classical instruments, lyres and bows harps, are still used in forms close to those of the lyres (begena, krar) and bow harps of the ancient Nile valley as well as the large and small lyres of the classical Greek world. (Construction and playing techniques used in Ethiopia and Eritrea are often staggeringly close to those described in Greek and Hellenistic documents and observed in artifacts). In addition, there is the Orthodox Tewahedo Church music, which while sharing some liturgical-formal features with (Egyptian) Coptic Church music bears many distinctions from the Copts, in tonal practice and instrumental accompaniment. (The influence of old Jewish music in Tewahedo practice appears large; this is in keeping with the general tendency of the Tewahedo to focus more on practices associated with the old testament than either Catholics or Orthodox do).

I have no doubt that Maqam musics share some common ancestry with these traditions, but that does not make them genres of Maqam, and given the apparent continuity in these traditions, I would tend to hear the Ethiopic as representing perhaps the healthiest surviver of the stem tradition, and locate both Maqam and post-Roman musics in branches of that stem (albeit branches receiving some important grafts from other cultures as well). There are abundant examples of the Greeks citing influence from Egypt and much evidence in Egypt points in turn to an active exchange with Africa. (The influence of Africa has not always been understated: in the 3rd century C.E.: Mani considered Aksum (Ethiopia), Rome, Persia, and China to be the four great powers of his time). The evidence is scarce but it is attractive to consider the four pentatonic Kignit of krar (lyre) tunings to be the trichordal ancestors of the classical greek tetrachordal tunings (which of course would have fallen precisely into the famous missing chapter of Boethius, on the division of the fourth into two parts). (And that brings it all back to tuning!)

DJW

There is a bearing to all that you have said.

>
>
>
> I would certainly not affirm that last statement for all Ethiopians. In
> Ethiopia, Eritrea, and parts of Sudan, the classical lyric and epic
> accompanied song traditions are part of a continuum that predates any
> Maqam genre by a least a millenium. The tonal practice and the
> structure of the texts is quite unlike anything associated with Maqam
> musics. The principle classical instruments, lyres and bows harps, are
> still used in forms close to those of the lyres (begena, krar) and bow
> harps of the ancient Nile valley as well as the large and small lyres of
> the classical Greek world. (Construction and playing techniques used in
> Ethiopia and Eritrea are often staggeringly close to those described in
> Greek and Hellenistic documents and observed in artifacts). In addition,
> there is the Orthodox Tewahedo Church music, which while sharing some
> liturgical-formal features with (Egyptian) Coptic Church music bears
> many distinctions from the Copts, in tonal practice and instrumental
> accompaniment. (The influence of old Jewish music in Tewahedo practice
> appears large; this is in keeping with the general tendency of the
> Tewahedo to focus more on practices associated with the old testament
> than either Catholics or Orthodox do).
>
> I have no doubt that Maqam musics share some common ancestry with these
> traditions, but that does not make them genres of Maqam, and given the
> apparent continuity in these traditions, I would tend to hear the
> Ethiopic as representing perhaps the healthiest surviver of the stem
> tradition, and locate both Maqam and post-Roman musics in branches of
> that stem (albeit branches receiving some important grafts from other
> cultures as well). There are abundant examples of the Greeks citing
> influence from Egypt and much evidence in Egypt points in turn to an
> active exchange with Africa. (The influence of Africa has not always
> been understated: in the 3rd century C.E.: Mani considered Aksum
> (Ethiopia), Rome, Persia, and China to be the four great powers of his
> time). The evidence is scarce but it is attractive to consider the four
> pentatonic Kignit of krar (lyre) tunings to be the trichordal ancestors
> of the classical greek tetrachordal tunings (which of course would have
> fallen precisely into the famous missing chapter of Boethius, on the
> division of the fourth into two parts). (And that brings it all back to
> tuning!)
>
> DJW
>
>

> > There are of course examples of music influenced by American
> > Indians, such as Macdowell's Indian Suite. Thurlow
> > Lieurance's By the Waters of Minnetonka was the product his
> > interest in collecting and preserving Indian music, and was
> > a riff on a Sioux love song he recorded in 1911 on the Crow
> > reservation in Montana.

Gene, do you have any more info on this?

> Fillmore, John Comfort. A Study of Indian Music.
> The Century. 02.1894
>
> http://tinyurl.com/q7mre

This is a great find, Clark!

"I soon found that the piano, with the audible thud of its
hammer, its inability to produce intervals smaller than a
semitone, its fixity of pitch, and its tempered tuning, was
as unsatisfactory to the Indian as his singing can be to
our unaccustomed ears."

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > > There are of course examples of music influenced by American
> > > Indians, such as Macdowell's Indian Suite. Thurlow
> > > Lieurance's By the Waters of Minnetonka was the product his
> > > interest in collecting and preserving Indian music, and was
> > > a riff on a Sioux love song he recorded in 1911 on the Crow
> > > reservation in Montana.
>
> Gene, do you have any more info on this?

I found a bunch of info on Lieurance by googling. I was thinking of
making a meantone, or perhaps JI, version of Minnetonka. It's not
great music but it's fun, with a lot of tone-painting as well as the
Souix love song.

> > > > There are of course examples of music influenced by American
> > > > Indians, such as Macdowell's Indian Suite. Thurlow
> > > > Lieurance's By the Waters of Minnetonka was the product his
> > > > interest in collecting and preserving Indian music, and was
> > > > a riff on a Sioux love song he recorded in 1911 on the Crow
> > > > reservation in Montana.
> >
> > Gene, do you have any more info on this?
>
> I found a bunch of info on Lieurance by googling. I was thinking of
> making a meantone, or perhaps JI, version of Minnetonka. It's not
> great music but it's fun, with a lot of tone-painting as well as the
> Souix love song.

Searched Amazon. "Lieurance Minnetonka" yielded only some very
western-sounding antique pop tunes, including a modern recording
of a piano roll by Zez Confrey.

"Macdowell Indian" had more luck. You can hear it here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000049QG/
Kinda interesting

Also found this
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000463I/
Don't know if it's an inevitable consequence of the piano, but
this stuff sounds completely western to me.

-Carl

On Wed, 01 Mar 2006, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > > There are of course examples of music influenced by American
> > > Indians, such as Macdowell's Indian Suite. Thurlow
> > > Lieurance's By the Waters of Minnetonka was the product his
> > > interest in collecting and preserving Indian music, and was
> > > a riff on a Sioux love song he recorded in 1911 on the Crow
> > > reservation in Montana.
>
> Gene, do you have any more info on this?
>
> > Fillmore, John Comfort. A Study of Indian Music.
> > The Century. 02.1894
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/q7mre
>
> This is a great find, Clark!
>
> "I soon found that the piano, with the audible thud of its
> hammer, its inability to produce intervals smaller than a
> semitone, its fixity of pitch, and its tempered tuning, was
> as unsatisfactory to the Indian as his singing can be to
> our unaccustomed ears."

Hi Carl and others,

The Fillmore article refers to an article called
"Indian Songs" by Alice C Fletcher in the previous
issue (Jan 1894) of The Century.

The link is this:
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABP2287-0047-110

Fletcher was an anthropologist and ethnologist
with no mean understanding of music. The article
describes how she spent time with, and was cared
for by, the Omaha. It gives a much fuller picture
than I've seen before in near-contemporary accounts
(she's writing about roughly 1884) of the place and
roles of music in Omaha life. The article also includes
a couple more songs transcribed by her and arranged
by Fillmore.

A search on the Cornell Library "Making of America"
site turned up a total of 10 references to Alice C
Fletcher in The Century. I've got some more reading
to do ...

Regards,
Yahya

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