AW.: Re: the word microtone

In einer Nachricht vom 12/1/99 4:56:50 AM (MEZ) Mitteleurop�ische
Zeitschreibt Afmmjr@aol.com:

<<
Over time the meaning of words evolve (or devolve). Once a "microtone" was
an interval smaller than a semitone (Harvard Dictionary of Music). Now that
we have evolved (a verb?) the term "microtone" to include any interval of
integrity that differs from a strict 12-TET model, the amount of microtones
to non-microtones is ridiculous. >>

Such an expanded definition of "microtone" to include any interval other than
those found in 12tet is ridiculous, removing any distinction at all to the
term.

The word microtone has not devolved for me. Let's honor Carillo and reserve
"microtone" for intervals smaller than a semitone. If we need to define
"semitone" with any precision, one could take the pythagorean 256/243 or the
12th root of 2, but perhaps more useful would be to accept any interval
between, 15/14 and 21/20. Anything less than the latter would be a microtone.

<< Microtonality is the discipline that contains all the sub-disciplines
dealing
with tuning and music. Over the years we have established a virtual
university on the net through this list. The sub-disciplines expressed
include composition, performance, scholarship, speculative theory, instrument
making and design, technology, abstract mathematics, and a few that skip my
mind right now. >>

Come on. The interest represented on this list is musical tuning, and
microtonal tunings represent only a subset of that interest. Many of us, for
example, are interested in Javanese tones systems. They are "microtonal" only
if one chooses to describe them in terms of deviation from 12tet pitches; but
that description has precious little relevance to how the systems work in
theory or in practice, and certainly adds nothing to our understanding of the
systems. (Not to mention the cultural-imperialist overtones of such a
description...).

Many list contributors are indeed interested in divisions of tone space by
intervals smaller than semitones, but the majority of these contributors
appear to be interested in making tonal musics of one sort or another, and
such small intervals are generally not used as distinctive melodic or
harmonic intervals. In music history such use of small intervals is
extremely rare; I have more than one posted a request on this list for anyone
to come up with an example of enharmonic melodic practice outside of the
classical Greek world. Aside from a few scattered attempts to imitate the
Greek practice (Vincentino, Slonimsky, Partch, and Darreg come to mind), it
seems to have been unique to that culture and without further resonance.

You're certainly free to organize your university as you see fit. Personally,
I don't recognize my activity as a composer to be a subdiscipline to that of
tuning.

It's about time that intervals larger than 100 (or perhaps 150) cents were called macrotones so as to distinguish them from smaller intervals (microtones).
However, be careful about characterizing "intervals of integrity". Werkmeister III uses some very strange intervals that are neither just intonation nor equally tempered, about six and twelve cents higher and lower than 12 tet, far enough to make a difference in the sound. Every key is slightly different as a consequence and the sound of Bach's organ music is (to my ears) strikingly more chromatic and modern (and more beautiful) than in conventional tuning.
If you haven't heard Johnny Reinhard's "Microtonal Bach" program on Columbia University's WKCR-FM station on Christmas afternoon, you've been missing a treat for many years. His master's thesis seems to me quite convincing that Bach used this tuning at least some of the time. He sells copies for $15.
318 East 70th Street, N.Y., NY 10021
(212) 517-3550; fax (212) 517-5495

>>> <DWolf77309@cs.com> 12/01 7:00 AM >>>
From: DWolf77309@cs.com

In einer Nachricht vom 12/1/99 4:56:50 AM (MEZ) MitteleuropSische
Zeitschreibt Afmmjr@aol.com:

<<
Over time the meaning of words evolve (or devolve). Once a "microtone" was
an interval smaller than a semitone (Harvard Dictionary of Music). Now that
we have evolved (a verb?) the term "microtone" to include any interval of
integrity that differs from a strict 12-TET model, the amount of microtones
to non-microtones is ridiculous. >>

Such an expanded definition of "microtone" to include any interval other than
those found in 12tet is ridiculous, removing any distinction at all to the
term.

The word microtone has not devolved for me. Let's honor Carillo and reserve
"microtone" for intervals smaller than a semitone. If we need to define
"semitone" with any precision, one could take the pythagorean 256/243 or the
12th root of 2, but perhaps more useful would be to accept any interval
between, 15/14 and 21/20. Anything less than the latter would be a microtone.

<< Microtonality is the discipline that contains all the sub-disciplines
dealing
with tuning and music. Over the years we have established a virtual
university on the net through this list. The sub-disciplines expressed
include composition, performance, scholarship, speculative theory, instrument
making and design, technology, abstract mathematics, and a few that skip my
mind right now. >>

Come on. The interest represented on this list is musical tuning, and
microtonal tunings represent only a subset of that interest. Many of us, for
example, are interested in Javanese tones systems. They are "microtonal" only
if one chooses to describe them in terms of deviation from 12tet pitches; but
that description has precious little relevance to how the systems work in
theory or in practice, and certainly adds nothing to our understanding of the
systems. (Not to mention the cultural-imperialist overtones of such a
description...).

Many list contributors are indeed interested in divisions of tone space by
intervals smaller than semitones, but the majority of these contributors
appear to be interested in making tonal musics of one sort or another, and
such small intervals are generally not used as distinctive melodic or
harmonic intervals. In music history such use of small intervals is
extremely rare; I have more than one posted a request on this list for anyone
to come up with an example of enharmonic melodic practice outside of the
classical Greek world. Aside from a few scattered attempts to imitate the
Greek practice (Vincentino, Slonimsky, Partch, and Darreg come to mind), it
seems to have been unique to that culture and without further resonance.

You're certainly free to organize your university as you see fit. Personally,
I don't recognize my activity as a composer to be a subdiscipline to that of
tuning.

You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
tuning-subscribe@onelist.com - subscribe to the tuning list.
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I think it is nice to see you fellows so heated about a simple request for
suggestions for an alternative term. But despite you're explanations etc... You
have chosen to honk your'e horns and never actually say
I would probably prefer ________________ instead of "microtone"
or" i still like the word 'Microtone' " whatever

Just answer the question :-)

> " i still like the word 'Microtone' "
>
It can be misleading but I think it is useful still, like 'octave' (for instance to
describe the little blocks on the backs of my keys). In most of these cases, even
'temperament' is foreign, though.

Clark

MICROTONE!
The main problem with the word is that it has assembled all of us into
this group when the reality of the situation is that there is little beyond that
that we all have in common. By 1980 I was using "alternative tuning" because
frankly I had nothing in common with those doing "microtonal" music. Lately the
term or activity, that has no meaning outside a western tradition, I am tending
to associate with another type of Neo-classicism. A reactionary consertvativism (
maybe reflecting the political current of the time). It looks backwards, attempts
to reproduce, enhanced version of supposed past forms because of the superiority.
It followed the revolution of the early century just as this follows the
revolution of the 60's and the rise of third world musics . It realization of it
unexpressed goal as far as I can guess might be a new golden age period of
western music classics leading to the coming of the great microtonal Bach. Maybe
an added Pelog, Slendro or Indian Drone. I would hope that the MAIN trust of our
work would be something beyond old wine in new bottles.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com

On second thought, I believe "untempered" would be a better term for just intonation generally and "retempered" for such scales as Werkmeister III. There are other terms more suitable to the comedy of P.D.Q. Bach such as ill-tempered and distempered and these may even be more widely known through his work, but are hopefully unlikely to be confused with more serious terms.
Of course all this discussion is oriented toward our cultural bias of the past few centuries of Western music as if twelve tone equal temperament was the starting point and basis for comparisons with anything and everything else. This may be so even though it should not be. It is not necessarily where all of us are coming from or wish we were coming from. Just intonation is not an approximation of equal temperament. Quite the reverse!

>>> "John F. Sprague" <JSprague@dhcr.state.ny.us> 12/01 10:02 AM >>>
From: "John F. Sprague" <JSprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>

It's about time that intervals larger than 100 (or perhaps 150) cents were called macrotones so as to distinguish them from smaller intervals (microtones).
However, be careful about characterizing "intervals of integrity". Werkmeister III uses some very strange intervals that are neither just intonation nor equally tempered, about six and twelve cents higher and lower than 12 tet, far enough to make a difference in the sound. Every key is slightly different as a consequence and the sound of Bach's organ music is (to my ears) strikingly more chromatic and modern (and more beautiful) than in conventional tuning.
If you haven't heard Johnny Reinhard's "Microtonal Bach" program on Columbia University's WKCR-FM station on Christmas afternoon, you've been missing a treat for many years. His master's thesis seems to me quite convincing that Bach used this tuning at least some of the time. He sells copies for $15.
318 East 70th Street, N.Y., NY 10021
(212) 517-3550; fax (212) 517-5495

>>> <DWolf77309@cs.com> 12/01 7:00 AM >>>
From: DWolf77309@cs.com

In einer Nachricht vom 12/1/99 4:56:50 AM (MEZ) MitteleuropSische
Zeitschreibt Afmmjr@aol.com:

<<
Over time the meaning of words evolve (or devolve). Once a "microtone" was
an interval smaller than a semitone (Harvard Dictionary of Music). Now that
we have evolved (a verb?) the term "microtone" to include any interval of
integrity that differs from a strict 12-TET model, the amount of microtones
to non-microtones is ridiculous. >>

Such an expanded definition of "microtone" to include any interval other than
those found in 12tet is ridiculous, removing any distinction at all to the
term.

The word microtone has not devolved for me. Let's honor Carillo and reserve
"microtone" for intervals smaller than a semitone. If we need to define
"semitone" with any precision, one could take the pythagorean 256/243 or the
12th root of 2, but perhaps more useful would be to accept any interval
between, 15/14 and 21/20. Anything less than the latter would be a microtone.

<< Microtonality is the discipline that contains all the sub-disciplines
dealing
with tuning and music. Over the years we have established a virtual
university on the net through this list. The sub-disciplines expressed
include composition, performance, scholarship, speculative theory, instrument
making and design, technology, abstract mathematics, and a few that skip my
mind right now. >>

Come on. The interest represented on this list is musical tuning, and
microtonal tunings represent only a subset of that interest. Many of us, for
example, are interested in Javanese tones systems. They are "microtonal" only
if one chooses to describe them in terms of deviation from 12tet pitches; but
that description has precious little relevance to how the systems work in
theory or in practice, and certainly adds nothing to our understanding of the
systems. (Not to mention the cultural-imperialist overtones of such a
description...).

Many list contributors are indeed interested in divisions of tone space by
intervals smaller than semitones, but the majority of these contributors
appear to be interested in making tonal musics of one sort or another, and
such small intervals are generally not used as distinctive melodic or
harmonic intervals. In music history such use of small intervals is
extremely rare; I have more than one posted a request on this list for anyone
to come up with an example of enharmonic melodic practice outside of the
classical Greek world. Aside from a few scattered attempts to imitate the
Greek practice (Vincentino, Slonimsky, Partch, and Darreg come to mind), it
seems to have been unique to that culture and without further resonance.

You're certainly free to organize your university as you see fit. Personally,
I don't recognize my activity as a composer to be a subdiscipline to that of
tuning.

You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
tuning-subscribe@onelist.com - subscribe to the tuning list.
tuning-unsubscribe@onelist.com - unsubscribe from the tuning list.
tuning-digest@onelist.com - switch your subscription to digest mode.
tuning-normal@onelist.com - switch your subscription to normal mode.

You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
tuning-subscribe@onelist.com - subscribe to the tuning list.
tuning-unsubscribe@onelist.com - unsubscribe from the tuning list.
tuning-digest@onelist.com - switch your subscription to digest mode.
tuning-normal@onelist.com - switch your subscription to normal mode.

I didn't mean to imply that those who use ratios with large numbers to approximate various equal temperaments are necessarily wrong-headed. Anything can be interesting from at least a theorectical viewpoint. Unless and until you actually tune some instrument and play music using it, the results may not be easy to predict. And whether you or anyone else is satisfied with the results is a subjective matter, largely dependent on one's past experience with various scales and the musics deriving from them.
Tempering a scale doesn't have to imply an equal tempering, as in the case of various "meantone" temperaments. Some scales in just intonation may be subject to improvement by tempering as well. And a lot depends on whether the music a scale is used for is mainly sequential or mainly simultaneous (melodic or harmonic), or even mainly rhythmic. "Native" (not necessarily "primitive") musics and scales pretty much run the gamut of possibilities among these three areas of concentration. Not everyone is striving for a balanced system more or less equally capable in all three aspects.

>>> "John F. Sprague" <JSprague@dhcr.state.ny.us> 12/02 1:40 PM >>>
From: "John F. Sprague" <JSprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>

On second thought, I believe "untempered" would be a better term for just intonation generally and "retempered" for such scales as Werkmeister III. There are other terms more suitable to the comedy of P.D.Q. Bach such as ill-tempered and distempered and these may even be more widely known through his work, but are hopefully unlikely to be confused with more serious terms.
Of course all this discussion is oriented toward our cultural bias of the past few centuries of Western music as if twelve tone equal temperament was the starting point and basis for comparisons with anything and everything else. This may be so even though it should not be. It is not necessarily where all of us are coming from or wish we were coming from. Just intonation is not an approximation of equal temperament. Quite the reverse!

>>> "John F. Sprague" <JSprague@dhcr.state.ny.us> 12/01 10:02 AM >>>
From: "John F. Sprague" <JSprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>

It's about time that intervals larger than 100 (or perhaps 150) cents were called macrotones so as to distinguish them from smaller intervals (microtones).
However, be careful about characterizing "intervals of integrity". Werkmeister III uses some very strange intervals that are neither just intonation nor equally tempered, about six and twelve cents higher and lower than 12 tet, far enough to make a difference in the sound. Every key is slightly different as a consequence and the sound of Bach's organ music is (to my ears) strikingly more chromatic and modern (and more beautiful) than in conventional tuning.
If you haven't heard Johnny Reinhard's "Microtonal Bach" program on Columbia University's WKCR-FM station on Christmas afternoon, you've been missing a treat for many years. His master's thesis seems to me quite convincing that Bach used this tuning at least some of the time. He sells copies for $15.
318 East 70th Street, N.Y., NY 10021
(212) 517-3550; fax (212) 517-5495

>>> <DWolf77309@cs.com> 12/01 7:00 AM >>>
From: DWolf77309@cs.com

In einer Nachricht vom 12/1/99 4:56:50 AM (MEZ) MitteleuropSische
Zeitschreibt Afmmjr@aol.com:

<<
Over time the meaning of words evolve (or devolve). Once a "microtone" was
an interval smaller than a semitone (Harvard Dictionary of Music). Now that
we have evolved (a verb?) the term "microtone" to include any interval of
integrity that differs from a strict 12-TET model, the amount of microtones
to non-microtones is ridiculous. >>

Such an expanded definition of "microtone" to include any interval other than
those found in 12tet is ridiculous, removing any distinction at all to the
term.

The word microtone has not devolved for me. Let's honor Carillo and reserve
"microtone" for intervals smaller than a semitone. If we need to define
"semitone" with any precision, one could take the pythagorean 256/243 or the
12th root of 2, but perhaps more useful would be to accept any interval
between, 15/14 and 21/20. Anything less than the latter would be a microtone.

<< Microtonality is the discipline that contains all the sub-disciplines
dealing
with tuning and music. Over the years we have established a virtual
university on the net through this list. The sub-disciplines expressed
include composition, performance, scholarship, speculative theory, instrument
making and design, technology, abstract mathematics, and a few that skip my
mind right now. >>

Come on. The interest represented on this list is musical tuning, and
microtonal tunings represent only a subset of that interest. Many of us, for
example, are interested in Javanese tones systems. They are "microtonal" only
if one chooses to describe them in terms of deviation from 12tet pitches; but
that description has precious little relevance to how the systems work in
theory or in practice, and certainly adds nothing to our understanding of the
systems. (Not to mention the cultural-imperialist overtones of such a
description...).

Many list contributors are indeed interested in divisions of tone space by
intervals smaller than semitones, but the majority of these contributors
appear to be interested in making tonal musics of one sort or another, and
such small intervals are generally not used as distinctive melodic or
harmonic intervals. In music history such use of small intervals is
extremely rare; I have more than one posted a request on this list for anyone
to come up with an example of enharmonic melodic practice outside of the
classical Greek world. Aside from a few scattered attempts to imitate the
Greek practice (Vincentino, Slonimsky, Partch, and Darreg come to mind), it
seems to have been unique to that culture and without further resonance.

You're certainly free to organize your university as you see fit. Personally,
I don't recognize my activity as a composer to be a subdiscipline to that of
tuning.

You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
tuning-subscribe@onelist.com - subscribe to the tuning list.
tuning-unsubscribe@onelist.com - unsubscribe from the tuning list.
tuning-digest@onelist.com - switch your subscription to digest mode.
tuning-normal@onelist.com - switch your subscription to normal mode.

You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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tuning-unsubscribe@onelist.com - unsubscribe from the tuning list.
tuning-digest@onelist.com - switch your subscription to digest mode.
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You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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tuning-normal@onelist.com - switch your subscription to normal mode.

or how about evil temperment for ET
and Pure sound for JI

hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Pat

<< From: "John F. Sprague" <JSprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>

On second thought, I believe "untempered" would be a better term for just
intonation generally and "retempered" for such scales as Werkmeister III. >>

"Untempered" puts the horse before the cart: you can work in just intonation
without ever considering temperament, so describing just intonation in terms
of tempering misses the whole point. On the other hand, if you work in
temperaments, unless your work is not tonal, you're probably going to think
about -- if not hear -- your temperament in terms of JI. When I read the
word "tempered", my first question is "tempered from what?"; in most cases,
it is tempered from some form of JI.

A tuning like Werkmeister III isn't really re- tempered, it's just plain
tempered.