A case of Modulation? Transposition?

Hi ALL,

Please consider the following two examples:

1. Say, I am singing raga Marwa in the key of C. Scale:
C, Db, E, F#, A, B. This does not represent the RAGA Marwa.
The raga typically goes like A3, B3, Db4, E4, F#4, A4.

Continuing with the same 'Sa' and the same typical phrase, now I
think of A3 (yes, A3) as the 'Sa' *in my mind*. Now, while
the listeners will continue to hear Marwa, I will be singing raga
Bhupali -- a pentatonic raga. after improvising the raga like this,
I will, of course, go back to the original 'Sa', now singing Marwa
again, in my mind, too.

Is this modulation? Transposing? I should tell you that this case is
neither theoretical nor isolated.

2. Say, I am singing the notes C D E G A C'. This time, I am changing
the note of reference ('Sa') successively. When I call C as the 'Sa'
the raga sounds Bhupali; with D as the 'Sa', now the raga sounds
Madhyamad Sarang; with E as the 'Sa', the raga Malkaus; with G as the
'Sa', the raga Durga; with A as the 'Sa', raga Dhani.

Is this modulation? Transposing?

I will appreciate your inputs,
Haresh.

Haresh BAKSHI wrote:

Generally I would say, yes, you are modulating. Differing from Ozan and agreeing with the way you are putting it, however, I would not say that the raga modulates; you or the music modulate from one raga to another. A Western key doesn't modulate either, it's the march or menuet that modulates to the subdominant in the trio.

Some questions below.

> > 1. Say, I am singing raga Marwa in the key of C. Scale:
> C, Db, E, F#, A, B. This does not represent the RAGA Marwa.
> The raga typically goes like A3, B3, Db4, E4, F#4, A4.

What's the difference between raga Marwa and RAGA Marwa? Assuming for the time being that your performance starts in the latter, and that the C is actually the drone, final or starting note, next question:

> > Continuing with the same 'Sa' and the same typical phrase, now I
> think of A3 (yes, A3) as the 'Sa' *in my mind*. Now, while
> the listeners will continue to hear Marwa, I will be singing raga > Bhupali -- a pentatonic raga. after improvising the raga like this,
> I will, of course, go back to the original 'Sa', now singing Marwa
> again, in my mind, too.

Wouldn't you be skipping the C in your improvisation, when phrases in raga Marwa would normally involve or even lead to that note? In this case, a listener who knows the music will certainly notice; you are singing atypical melodies.

> > Is this modulation? Transposing? I should tell you that this case is
> neither theoretical nor isolated.
> > 2. Say, I am singing the notes C D E G A C'. This time, I am changing
> the note of reference ('Sa') successively. When I call C as the 'Sa'
> the raga sounds Bhupali; with D as the 'Sa', now the raga sounds
> Madhyamad Sarang; with E as the 'Sa', the raga Malkaus; with G as the
> 'Sa', the raga Durga; with A as the 'Sa', raga Dhani.

Same question: Will you be singing the same melodic outline? Then the intervallic content changes, and if this is not extended (just the repetition of a phrase), you are singing a "tonal sequence" in Western terms. No change of tonality.

Or will there be different melodies that wouldn't be possible with Sa as a tonic? Modulation.

> > Is this modulation? Transposing?

Interestingly, none of your cases involves alteration.

klaus

Hello Klaus, thanks for your inputs.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@...> wrote:
..........

>>>>
> Some questions below.
>
> >
> > 1. Say, I am singing raga Marwa in the key of C. Scale:
> > C, Db, E, F#, A, B. This does not represent the RAGA Marwa.
> > The raga typically goes like A3, B3, Db4, E4, F#4, A4.
>
> What's the difference between raga Marwa and RAGA Marwa? Assuming for
> the time being that your performance starts in the latter, and that the
> C is actually the drone, final or starting note,
>>>>

raga Marwa and RAGA Marwa are the same -- I used CAPS for emphasis to
convey that raga Marwa does not "move" as its scale.

>>>> next question:
> > Continuing with the same 'Sa' and the same typical phrase, now I
> > think of A3 (yes, A3) as the 'Sa' *in my mind*. Now, while
> > the listeners will continue to hear Marwa, I will be singing
raga
> > Bhupali -- a pentatonic raga. after improvising the raga like this,
> > I will, of course, go back to the original 'Sa', now singing Marwa
> > again, in my mind, too.
>
> Wouldn't you be skipping the C in your improvisation, when phrases in
> raga Marwa would normally involve or even lead to that note? In this
> case, a listener who knows the music will certainly notice; you are
> singing atypical melodies. >>>>

Marwa is the only raga performed today where we skip Sa (the note C
here). Not only that, improvisation in Marwa requires that we skip Sa
as much and as long as possible. Of course, we end all phrases in Sa.

>>>>
> > Is this modulation? Transposing? I should tell you that this case is
> > neither theoretical nor isolated.
> >
> > 2. Say, I am singing the notes C D E G A C'. This time, I am changing
> > the note of reference ('Sa') successively. When I call C as the 'Sa'
> > the raga sounds Bhupali; with D as the 'Sa', now the raga sounds
> > Madhyamad Sarang; with E as the 'Sa', the raga Malkaus; with G as the
> > 'Sa', the raga Durga; with A as the 'Sa', raga Dhani.
>
> Same question: Will you be singing the same melodic outline?
>>>>

Yes, it will be the same melodic outline.

Regards,
Haresh.

> Hi ALL,
>
> Please consider the following two examples:
>
> 1. Say, I am singing raga Marwa in the key of C. Scale:
> C, Db, E, F#, A, B. This does not represent the RAGA Marwa.
> The raga typically goes like A3, B3, Db4, E4, F#4, A4.
>
> Continuing with the same 'Sa' and the same typical phrase, now I
> think of A3 (yes, A3) as the 'Sa' *in my mind*. Now, while
> the listeners will continue to hear Marwa, I will be singing raga
> Bhupali -- a pentatonic raga. after improvising the raga like this,
> I will, of course, go back to the original 'Sa', now singing Marwa
> again, in my mind, too.
>
> Is this modulation? Transposing? I should tell you that this case is
> neither theoretical nor isolated.
>

My dear Haresh, I have no doubt in my mind that all you say falls neatly
into the category of modulation, seeing as this concept automatically
includes the practice of transposition:

A modulation is either:

1. Choosing another mode while preserving the tone center,
2. Transposing the mode to another degree of the scale,
3. Choosing another mode and transposing it to another degree of the scale.

Or any of these put together.

> 2. Say, I am singing the notes C D E G A C'. This time, I am changing
> the note of reference ('Sa') successively. When I call C as the 'Sa'
> the raga sounds Bhupali; with D as the 'Sa', now the raga sounds
> Madhyamad Sarang; with E as the 'Sa', the raga Malkaus; with G as the
> 'Sa', the raga Durga; with A as the 'Sa', raga Dhani.
>
> Is this modulation? Transposing?
>
> I will appreciate your inputs,
> Haresh.
>
>
>

I would like to see someone come forward and say that all this has nothing
at all to do with modulation.

Oz.

The way I understand it:

The Rag/Maqam does not need to modulate (although it very well may), because
a Rag/Maqam is so much more than the `mode`. A single instance of a
Rag/Maqam has many scales and modes (tropes, octave species, what-not)
mashed together.

And you said it... A Key of a piece in Western common practice does not
modulate just as a Rag/Maqam of a piece in Eastern common practice does not
modulate. However it may borrow from neighbouring Rags/Maqams. Hence,
modulations indeed are part of the haven of a Rag/Maqam.

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: "klaus schmirler" <KSchmir@online.de>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 23 �ubat 2006 Per�embe 20:00
Subject: Re: [tuning] A case of Modulation? Transposition?

> Haresh BAKSHI wrote:
>
> Generally I would say, yes, you are modulating. Differing from Ozan and
> agreeing with the way you are putting it, however, I would not say that
> the raga modulates; you or the music modulate from one raga to another.
> A Western key doesn't modulate either, it's the march or menuet that
> modulates to the subdominant in the trio.
>
> Some questions below.
>
> >
> > 1. Say, I am singing raga Marwa in the key of C. Scale:
> > C, Db, E, F#, A, B. This does not represent the RAGA Marwa.
> > The raga typically goes like A3, B3, Db4, E4, F#4, A4.
>
> What's the difference between raga Marwa and RAGA Marwa? Assuming for
> the time being that your performance starts in the latter, and that the
> C is actually the drone, final or starting note, next question:
>
> >
> > Continuing with the same 'Sa' and the same typical phrase, now I
> > think of A3 (yes, A3) as the 'Sa' *in my mind*. Now, while
> > the listeners will continue to hear Marwa, I will be singing raga
> > Bhupali -- a pentatonic raga. after improvising the raga like this,
> > I will, of course, go back to the original 'Sa', now singing Marwa
> > again, in my mind, too.
>
> Wouldn't you be skipping the C in your improvisation, when phrases in
> raga Marwa would normally involve or even lead to that note? In this
> case, a listener who knows the music will certainly notice; you are
> singing atypical melodies.
>
> >
> > Is this modulation? Transposing? I should tell you that this case is
> > neither theoretical nor isolated.
> >
> > 2. Say, I am singing the notes C D E G A C'. This time, I am changing
> > the note of reference ('Sa') successively. When I call C as the 'Sa'
> > the raga sounds Bhupali; with D as the 'Sa', now the raga sounds
> > Madhyamad Sarang; with E as the 'Sa', the raga Malkaus; with G as the
> > 'Sa', the raga Durga; with A as the 'Sa', raga Dhani.
>
> Same question: Will you be singing the same melodic outline? Then the
> intervallic content changes, and if this is not extended (just the
> repetition of a phrase), you are singing a "tonal sequence" in Western
> terms. No change of tonality.
>
> Or will there be different melodies that wouldn't be possible with Sa as
> a tonic? Modulation.
>
> >
> > Is this modulation? Transposing?
>
> Interestingly, none of your cases involves alteration.
>
> klaus
>

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006, Haresh BAKSHI wrote:
>
> Hi ALL,
>
> Please consider the following two examples:
>
> 1. Say, I am singing raga Marwa in the key of C. Scale:
> C, Db, E, F#, A, B. This does not represent the RAGA Marwa.
> The raga typically goes like A3, B3, Db4, E4, F#4, A4.
>
> Continuing with the same 'Sa' and the same typical phrase, now I
> think of A3 (yes, A3) as the 'Sa' *in my mind*. Now, while
> the listeners will continue to hear Marwa, I will be singing raga
> Bhupali -- a pentatonic raga. after improvising the raga like this,
> I will, of course, go back to the original 'Sa', now singing Marwa
> again, in my mind, too.
>
> Is this modulation? Transposing? I should tell you that this case is
> neither theoretical nor isolated.
>
> 2. Say, I am singing the notes C D E G A C'. This time, I am changing
> the note of reference ('Sa') successively. When I call C as the 'Sa'
> the raga sounds Bhupali; with D as the 'Sa', now the raga sounds
> Madhyamad Sarang; with E as the 'Sa', the raga Malkaus; with G as the
> 'Sa', the raga Durga; with A as the 'Sa', raga Dhani.
>
> Is this modulation? Transposing?
>
> I will appreciate your inputs,

Hi Haresh,

Case 2 is an example of transposing the same theme
into different ragas. Assuming that your theme is
identically:
C D E G | A C : :
in all cases, AND that you SOUND the Sa as a drone
at all times, what you describe is transposing the
drone! Thus:

C D E G | A C : : |
C C C C | C C C C |

C D E G | A C : : |
D D D D | D D D D |

C D E G | A C : : |
E E E E | E E E E |

C D E G | A C : : |
G G G G | G G G G |

C D E G | A C : : |
A A A A | A A A A |

(I believe I have a few examples of such a "drone
transposition" among my own works.)

Since we all know that an Indian composition
doesn't do that (even in raga maalika), to get the
same effect over a constant drone Sa, we need to
transpose that melody by the inverse interval in each
case, thus:

C D E G | A C : : |
C C C C | C C C C |

Bb C D F | G Bb : : |
C C C C | C C C C |

Ab Bb C Eb | F Ab : : |
C C C C | C C C C |

F G A C | D F : : |
C C C C | C C C C |

Eb F G Bb | C Eb : : |
C C C C | C C C C |

This is surely just an exact (rather than tonal)
transposition of the theme.

(OT: Interestingly, the gamut required to do this
comprises C D Eb E F G Ab A Bb, or nine distinct
pitches, almost double the original five pitches.
With two thirds and two sixths, we almost have
enough to treat this as a western melodic minor
... :-) - which impression we could heighten by
reversing those repetitions that require flats.)

Case 1 is an intriguing example that shows how
what we hear is conditioned by our expectations.
If you sing the phrase as you described it:
A3, B3, Db4, E4, F#4, A4
_with NO explicit tonic drone being played_,
then what will your listeners hear? Let's make
sure that the words you sing won't bring their
own associations - you sing this as a pure vocalise,
using the syllable "A" throughout. And to be clear
we're talking about the same beast, I will assume
that your Db4 is close enough to C#4 so that we
all hear it as a major third above the A3 and a
perfect fourth below the F#. (You didn't specify
your tuning!)

I, for one, would hear this as being in the major
pentatonic scale rooted on A. When singing this
phrase, I have the utmost difficulty even
*imagining* that it could be rooted on the note C,
which does not even appear to be a scale note!
However, in a larger context, where the tonic is
well established, I can appreciate the relationship
of such a phrase, which might be taken as "just"
a melodic elaboration of the major sixth, to a
tonic C.

Now your usual listeners may be much more used
to hearing raga Marwa than I am. If you are
singing the words of a well-known song in that
raga, the association may well be enough for them
to "hear" the non-existent drone on C. Such
listeners will hear raga Marwa where I hear only
a tune in a major pentatonic scale. And if I were
invited to harmonise it, or play a drone, then
surely I would play an A, *immediately* changing
the raga to Bhupali (characteristic ornaments
aside).

To now try to answer your question: I again see
_an exact transposition_ of a theme or motif.
I see NO modulation whatsoever.

Regards,
Yahya

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.1/272 - Release Date: 1/3/06

I think it is valid to say that if you hear *in your mind* that Sa has moved, you are describing
a sort of perception of modulation. I, myself have not perceived that ever when a prominant
drone is present, but then again, I haven't tried really, and I have only heard a reasonable, but
not an extensive amount of Indian raga music.

-Aaron

I would like Haresh or anyone else to provide an mp3 link to a classical
Hindustani Sangeet (preferably not too long), so that I may attempt to
demonstrate where - if any - modulations occur.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@melbpc.org.au>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 02 Mart 2006 Per�embe 6:52
Subject: [tuning] RE: A case of Modulation? Transposition?

>
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2006, Haresh BAKSHI wrote:
> >
> > Hi ALL,
> >
> > Please consider the following two examples:
> >
> > 1. Say, I am singing raga Marwa in the key of C. Scale:
> > C, Db, E, F#, A, B. This does not represent the RAGA Marwa.
> > The raga typically goes like A3, B3, Db4, E4, F#4, A4.
> >
> > Continuing with the same 'Sa' and the same typical phrase, now I
> > think of A3 (yes, A3) as the 'Sa' *in my mind*. Now, while
> > the listeners will continue to hear Marwa, I will be singing raga
> > Bhupali -- a pentatonic raga. after improvising the raga like this,
> > I will, of course, go back to the original 'Sa', now singing Marwa
> > again, in my mind, too.
> >
> > Is this modulation? Transposing? I should tell you that this case is
> > neither theoretical nor isolated.
> >
> > 2. Say, I am singing the notes C D E G A C'. This time, I am changing
> > the note of reference ('Sa') successively. When I call C as the 'Sa'
> > the raga sounds Bhupali; with D as the 'Sa', now the raga sounds
> > Madhyamad Sarang; with E as the 'Sa', the raga Malkaus; with G as the
> > 'Sa', the raga Durga; with A as the 'Sa', raga Dhani.
> >
> > Is this modulation? Transposing?
> >
> > I will appreciate your inputs,
>
>
> Hi Haresh,
>
> Case 2 is an example of transposing the same theme
> into different ragas. Assuming that your theme is
> identically:
> C D E G | A C : :
> in all cases, AND that you SOUND the Sa as a drone
> at all times, what you describe is transposing the
> drone! Thus:
>
> C D E G | A C : : |
> C C C C | C C C C |
>
> C D E G | A C : : |
> D D D D | D D D D |
>
> C D E G | A C : : |
> E E E E | E E E E |
>
> C D E G | A C : : |
> G G G G | G G G G |
>
> C D E G | A C : : |
> A A A A | A A A A |
>
> (I believe I have a few examples of such a "drone
> transposition" among my own works.)
>
> Since we all know that an Indian composition
> doesn't do that (even in raga maalika), to get the
> same effect over a constant drone Sa, we need to
> transpose that melody by the inverse interval in each
> case, thus:
>
> C D E G | A C : : |
> C C C C | C C C C |
>
> Bb C D F | G Bb : : |
> C C C C | C C C C |
>
> Ab Bb C Eb | F Ab : : |
> C C C C | C C C C |
>
> F G A C | D F : : |
> C C C C | C C C C |
>
> Eb F G Bb | C Eb : : |
> C C C C | C C C C |
>
> This is surely just an exact (rather than tonal)
> transposition of the theme.
>
>
> (OT: Interestingly, the gamut required to do this
> comprises C D Eb E F G Ab A Bb, or nine distinct
> pitches, almost double the original five pitches.
> With two thirds and two sixths, we almost have
> enough to treat this as a western melodic minor
> ... :-) - which impression we could heighten by
> reversing those repetitions that require flats.)
>
>
> Case 1 is an intriguing example that shows how
> what we hear is conditioned by our expectations.
> If you sing the phrase as you described it:
> A3, B3, Db4, E4, F#4, A4
> _with NO explicit tonic drone being played_,
> then what will your listeners hear? Let's make
> sure that the words you sing won't bring their
> own associations - you sing this as a pure vocalise,
> using the syllable "A" throughout. And to be clear
> we're talking about the same beast, I will assume
> that your Db4 is close enough to C#4 so that we
> all hear it as a major third above the A3 and a
> perfect fourth below the F#. (You didn't specify
> your tuning!)
>
> I, for one, would hear this as being in the major
> pentatonic scale rooted on A. When singing this
> phrase, I have the utmost difficulty even
> *imagining* that it could be rooted on the note C,
> which does not even appear to be a scale note!
> However, in a larger context, where the tonic is
> well established, I can appreciate the relationship
> of such a phrase, which might be taken as "just"
> a melodic elaboration of the major sixth, to a
> tonic C.
>
> Now your usual listeners may be much more used
> to hearing raga Marwa than I am. If you are
> singing the words of a well-known song in that
> raga, the association may well be enough for them
> to "hear" the non-existent drone on C. Such
> listeners will hear raga Marwa where I hear only
> a tune in a major pentatonic scale. And if I were
> invited to harmonise it, or play a drone, then
> surely I would play an A, *immediately* changing
> the raga to Bhupali (characteristic ornaments
> aside).
>
> To now try to answer your question: I again see
> _an exact transposition_ of a theme or motif.
> I see NO modulation whatsoever.
>
> Regards,
> Yahya
>

For a barebone start, with just aroha (ascending), avaroha
(descending) and pakad (catch-phrases) of about 100 raga-s:

http://www.SoundOfIndia.com

Haresh.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> I would like Haresh or anyone else to provide an mp3 link to a classical
> Hindustani Sangeet (preferably not too long), so that I may attempt to
> demonstrate where - if any - modulations occur.
>
> Oz.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 02 Mart 2006 Per�embe 6:52
> Subject: [tuning] RE: A case of Modulation? Transposition?
>
>
> >
> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2006, Haresh BAKSHI wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi ALL,
> > >
> > > Please consider the following two examples:
> > >
> > > 1. Say, I am singing raga Marwa in the key of C. Scale:
> > > C, Db, E, F#, A, B. This does not represent the RAGA Marwa.
> > > The raga typically goes like A3, B3, Db4, E4, F#4, A4.
> > >
> > > Continuing with the same 'Sa' and the same typical phrase, now I
> > > think of A3 (yes, A3) as the 'Sa' *in my mind*. Now, while
> > > the listeners will continue to hear Marwa, I will be singing raga
> > > Bhupali -- a pentatonic raga. after improvising the raga like
this,
> > > I will, of course, go back to the original 'Sa', now singing
Marwa
> > > again, in my mind, too.
> > >
> > > Is this modulation? Transposing? I should tell you that this
case is
> > > neither theoretical nor isolated.
> > >
> > > 2. Say, I am singing the notes C D E G A C'. This time, I am
changing
> > > the note of reference ('Sa') successively. When I call C as the 'Sa'
> > > the raga sounds Bhupali; with D as the 'Sa', now the raga sounds
> > > Madhyamad Sarang; with E as the 'Sa', the raga Malkaus; with G
as the
> > > 'Sa', the raga Durga; with A as the 'Sa', raga Dhani.
> > >
> > > Is this modulation? Transposing?
> > >
> > > I will appreciate your inputs,
> >
> >
> > Hi Haresh,
> >
> > Case 2 is an example of transposing the same theme
> > into different ragas. Assuming that your theme is
> > identically:
> > C D E G | A C : :
> > in all cases, AND that you SOUND the Sa as a drone
> > at all times, what you describe is transposing the
> > drone! Thus:
> >
> > C D E G | A C : : |
> > C C C C | C C C C |
> >
> > C D E G | A C : : |
> > D D D D | D D D D |
> >
> > C D E G | A C : : |
> > E E E E | E E E E |
> >
> > C D E G | A C : : |
> > G G G G | G G G G |
> >
> > C D E G | A C : : |
> > A A A A | A A A A |
> >
> > (I believe I have a few examples of such a "drone
> > transposition" among my own works.)
> >
> > Since we all know that an Indian composition
> > doesn't do that (even in raga maalika), to get the
> > same effect over a constant drone Sa, we need to
> > transpose that melody by the inverse interval in each
> > case, thus:
> >
> > C D E G | A C : : |
> > C C C C | C C C C |
> >
> > Bb C D F | G Bb : : |
> > C C C C | C C C C |
> >
> > Ab Bb C Eb | F Ab : : |
> > C C C C | C C C C |
> >
> > F G A C | D F : : |
> > C C C C | C C C C |
> >
> > Eb F G Bb | C Eb : : |
> > C C C C | C C C C |
> >
> > This is surely just an exact (rather than tonal)
> > transposition of the theme.
> >
> >
> > (OT: Interestingly, the gamut required to do this
> > comprises C D Eb E F G Ab A Bb, or nine distinct
> > pitches, almost double the original five pitches.
> > With two thirds and two sixths, we almost have
> > enough to treat this as a western melodic minor
> > ... :-) - which impression we could heighten by
> > reversing those repetitions that require flats.)
> >
> >
> > Case 1 is an intriguing example that shows how
> > what we hear is conditioned by our expectations.
> > If you sing the phrase as you described it:
> > A3, B3, Db4, E4, F#4, A4
> > _with NO explicit tonic drone being played_,
> > then what will your listeners hear? Let's make
> > sure that the words you sing won't bring their
> > own associations - you sing this as a pure vocalise,
> > using the syllable "A" throughout. And to be clear
> > we're talking about the same beast, I will assume
> > that your Db4 is close enough to C#4 so that we
> > all hear it as a major third above the A3 and a
> > perfect fourth below the F#. (You didn't specify
> > your tuning!)
> >
> > I, for one, would hear this as being in the major
> > pentatonic scale rooted on A. When singing this
> > phrase, I have the utmost difficulty even
> > *imagining* that it could be rooted on the note C,
> > which does not even appear to be a scale note!
> > However, in a larger context, where the tonic is
> > well established, I can appreciate the relationship
> > of such a phrase, which might be taken as "just"
> > a melodic elaboration of the major sixth, to a
> > tonic C.
> >
> > Now your usual listeners may be much more used
> > to hearing raga Marwa than I am. If you are
> > singing the words of a well-known song in that
> > raga, the association may well be enough for them
> > to "hear" the non-existent drone on C. Such
> > listeners will hear raga Marwa where I hear only
> > a tune in a major pentatonic scale. And if I were
> > invited to harmonise it, or play a drone, then
> > surely I would play an A, *immediately* changing
> > the raga to Bhupali (characteristic ornaments
> > aside).
> >
> > To now try to answer your question: I again see
> > _an exact transposition_ of a theme or motif.
> > I see NO modulation whatsoever.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Yahya
> >
>

But I was lost there, can you not give an exact link?

Congratulations on your book. Have you devoted any chapters to Rag-Maqam
similarities?

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 09 Mart 2006 Per�embe 0:47
Subject: [tuning] Re: A case of Modulation? Transposition?

For a barebone start, with just aroha (ascending), avaroha
(descending) and pakad (catch-phrases) of about 100 raga-s:

http://www.SoundOfIndia.com

Haresh.

More accurately:
http://www.soundofindia.com/raagas.asp

Thanks for the good wishes for my book. I have yet to study -- and
LISTEN a lot to -- Maqam-s to be able to do some comparison with the
raga-s. I do not have access to any web sources for listening. Any
suggestions? Any other resources?

Going back to http://www.soundofindia.com/raagas.asp, you can listen
to the ascending and the descending scales, though the catch phrases
have only been written down -- not sung.

Haresh.

-- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> But I was lost there, can you not give an exact link?
>
> Congratulations on your book. Have you devoted any chapters to Rag-Maqam
> similarities?
>
> Oz.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 09 Mart 2006 Perþembe 0:47
> Subject: [tuning] Re: A case of Modulation? Transposition?
>
>
> For a barebone start, with just aroha (ascending), avaroha
> (descending) and pakad (catch-phrases) of about 100 raga-s:
>
> http://www.SoundOfIndia.com
>
> Haresh.
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@...> wrote:

> Thanks for the good wishes for my book. I have yet to study -- and
> LISTEN a lot to -- Maqam-s to be able to do some comparison with the
> raga-s.

What does "-s" mean?

That way I try to show that it is the plural of a non-English word.
Like Maqam-s (many Maqams -- maqamat), raga-s (many ragas). etc.
Of course, I would not mind anyone using 'maqams' and 'ragas'.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the good wishes for my book. I have yet to study -- and
> > LISTEN a lot to -- Maqam-s to be able to do some comparison with the
> > raga-s.
>
> What does "-s" mean?
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@...> wrote:
>
> That way I try to show that it is the plural of a non-English word.
> Like Maqam-s (many Maqams -- maqamat), raga-s (many ragas). etc.
> Of course, I would not mind anyone using 'maqams' and 'ragas'.

Meanwhile, aren't native English speakers likely to be confused?

I do not quite follow what might confuse the native English speakers,
but I am happy to do anything to prevent that confusion -- may I know
what you suggest?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@> wrote:
> >
> > That way I try to show that it is the plural of a non-English word.
> > Like Maqam-s (many Maqams -- maqamat), raga-s (many ragas). etc.
> > Of course, I would not mind anyone using 'maqams' and 'ragas'.
>
> Meanwhile, aren't native English speakers likely to be confused?
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@...> wrote:
>
> I do not quite follow what might confuse the native English speakers,
> but I am happy to do anything to prevent that confusion -- may I know
> what you suggest?

The English plural form is s, not -s, so it's easy to conclude -s must
mean something else. I'd suggest leaving off the dash, or using the
plural form of the language the word is taken from.

On Wed, 08 Mar 2006, Haresh BAKSHI wrote:

For a barebone start, with just aroha (ascending), avaroha
(descending) and pakad (catch-phrases) of about 100 raga-s:
http://www.SoundOfIndia.com
[snip]

Haresh,

There I find:
---
Haresh Bakshi's new book, "101 Raga-s For The 21st Century
And Beyond: A Music Lover's Guide to Hindustani Music" is
on sale now!

Easy and interesting reading to gain insight on 161 terms like
raga, thumri, tarana. Get information about 101 popular raga-s.

Author: Haresh Bakshi
Pages: 116
---

Sounds fascinating! Does it include notation for the ragas?
A CD of sound samples? Wait! By clicking the book image,
I find:
http://www.soundofindia.com/listen.asp
which shows me that the book is available for $11.95 and the
book with audio D for $21.95 (presumably USD). OK! But
about the notation?

BTW, you never told me what you thought of my (extensive)
reply to your questions - please do so!

Regards,
Yahya

Dear Yahya, thanks for the message. I am separately responding to your
previous reply (I do not know how I failed to respond to it -- sorry)

1. The book, designed for beginners (and so, not for the Tuning Group
members), includes the notation of all 101 ragas (the ascending and
descending scales, and catch phrases, as well as some other common
information).

2. The CD, containing ascending and descending scales, and catch
phrases of all 101 ragas, is in the final stages of production. In the
mean time, I send along with the book, its not-so-finished version on
2 CDs.

Regards,
Haresh.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 08 Mar 2006, Haresh BAKSHI wrote:
>
> For a barebone start, with just aroha (ascending), avaroha
> (descending) and pakad (catch-phrases) of about 100 raga-s:
> http://www.SoundOfIndia.com
> [snip]
>
> Haresh,
>
> There I find:
> ---
> Haresh Bakshi's new book, "101 Raga-s For The 21st Century
> And Beyond: A Music Lover's Guide to Hindustani Music" is
> on sale now!
>
> Easy and interesting reading to gain insight on 161 terms like
> raga, thumri, tarana. Get information about 101 popular raga-s.
>
> Author: Haresh Bakshi
> Pages: 116
> ---
>
> Sounds fascinating! Does it include notation for the ragas?
> A CD of sound samples? Wait! By clicking the book image,
> I find:
> http://www.soundofindia.com/listen.asp
> which shows me that the book is available for $11.95 and the
> book with audio D for $21.95 (presumably USD). OK! But
> about the notation?
>
> BTW, you never told me what you thought of my (extensive)
> reply to your questions - please do so!
>
> Regards,
> Yahya
>

> 1. The book, designed for beginners (and so, not for the Tuning Group
> members), includes the notation of all 101 ragas (the ascending and
> descending scales, and catch phrases, as well as some other common
> information).
>
> 2. The CD, containing ascending and descending scales, and catch
> phrases of all 101 ragas, is in the final stages of production. In
> the mean time, I send along with the book, its not-so-finished
> version on 2 CDs.

Haresh,

All of us here have different kinds of knowledge. I'm sure I
could learn a lot from your book. Please post here when the
book/CD combination is available (if I understood correctly, it
is not quite available yet).

With regrets that we did not meet in San Francisco in
2003 (was it?),

-Carl

Carl, I missed the opportunity of meeting you in 2003 due to a
scheduling conflict created by my host, the manager of the motel.

For the book:

Visit http://www.soundofindia.com/ and click on "Online Store" or on
the picture of the book.

You are right about different members having different kinds of
knowledge. Since many members contribute to the constantly growing
body of knowledge, a beginner cannot progress at that rate of growth,
and so keeps feeling more and more inadequate and lagging behind.

Regards,
Haresh.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:

> Haresh,
>
> All of us here have different kinds of knowledge. I'm sure I
> could learn a lot from your book. Please post here when the
> book/CD combination is available (if I understood correctly, it
> is not quite available yet).
>
> With regrets that we did not meet in San Francisco in
> 2003 (was it?),
>
> -Carl
>

> Carl, I missed the opportunity of meeting you in 2003 due to a
> scheduling conflict created by my host, the manager of the motel.

Ah, I remember now.

> For the book:
>
> Visit http://www.soundofindia.com/ and click on "Online Store"
> or on the picture of the book.

I just ordered the book with CD.

-Carl

Haresh, I could glimpse that these rags indeed can be considered to
`modulate` similar to Maqams. It's all a matter of identifying how principal
octave species are inter-related. I realize that the alternative concept
proposed is `tonal transposition`, but I do think this will complicate
matters further.

Do you have a piece composed in a rag?

Cordially,
Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 09 Mart 2006 Per�embe 4:46
Subject: [tuning] Re: A case of Modulation? Transposition?

More accurately:
http://www.soundofindia.com/raagas.asp

Thanks for the good wishes for my book. I have yet to study -- and
LISTEN a lot to -- Maqam-s to be able to do some comparison with the
raga-s. I do not have access to any web sources for listening. Any
suggestions? Any other resources?

Going back to http://www.soundofindia.com/raagas.asp, you can listen
to the ascending and the descending scales, though the catch phrases
have only been written down -- not sung.

Haresh.

Dear Ozan, right now I have nothing beyond what you find on
http://www.soundofindia.com/raagas.asp

If the ascending and descending scales there are not enough material,
I can mail you the CDs which have recording of those scales as well as
the catch-phrases of 101 ragas. Of course, each phrase is about 25-35
seconds long.

Regards,
Haresh.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@...> wrote:
>
> Haresh, I could glimpse that these rags indeed can be considered to
> `modulate` similar to Maqams. It's all a matter of identifying how
principal
> octave species are inter-related. I realize that the alternative concept
> proposed is `tonal transposition`, but I do think this will complicate
> matters further.
>
> Do you have a piece composed in a rag?
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 09 Mart 2006 Perþembe 4:46
> Subject: [tuning] Re: A case of Modulation? Transposition?
>
>
> More accurately:
> http://www.soundofindia.com/raagas.asp
>
> Thanks for the good wishes for my book. I have yet to study -- and
> LISTEN a lot to -- Maqam-s to be able to do some comparison with the
> raga-s. I do not have access to any web sources for listening. Any
> suggestions? Any other resources?
>
> Going back to http://www.soundofindia.com/raagas.asp, you can listen
> to the ascending and the descending scales, though the catch phrases
> have only been written down -- not sung.
>
> Haresh.
>