Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning some question

Hi all

1- in mails it was written about tempering octave. Does it mean to have
octave more than 1200 or less than it.if so are these equations true
here :

(octave * 7)/12=fifth

(octave*5)/12=fourth

2- i asked this question because I am starting a project in tehran
university , music department, for measuring intervals of different
masters.it is obvious that the system is positive with maj.second around
210 cent and fifth around 705 cent.octave is also stretched.is there any
temperament based on octave?

Shaahin Mohaajeri

Tombak Player & Researcher , Composer

www.geocities.com/acousticsoftombak

My tombak musics : www.rhythmweb.com/gdg

My articles in ''Harmonytalk'':

www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html

www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html

My article in DrumDojo:

www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

Mohajeri Shahin escreveu:
> 1- in mails it was written about tempering octave. Does it mean to have
> octave more than 1200 or less than it.if so are these equations true
> here : > > (octave * 7)/12=fifth
> > (octave*5)/12=fourth

The piano is tuned with a `stretched' octave (more than 1200 cents), because the inharmonicity of its tones. For example, a synthesized piano tone should use upper partials at about 5% (in frequency) above the nominal harmonics. The pitches (for a keyboard) are adjusted accordingly, to sound `in tune'.

Donald Hall's `Musical Acoustics' reports preferences for `octaves' of 1210 cents or more for melodic intervals, for both pure and harmonic complex tones. The same for sinusoidal tones presented simultaneously. But for complex tones with many harmonics presented as harmonic intervals and during at least 0.5 second, 1200 cents is without doubt the `in tune' octave.

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🔗paulerlich <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mohajeri Shahin" <shahinm@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all
>
> 1- in mails it was written about tempering octave. Does it mean to have
> octave more than 1200 or less than it.

Yes!

>if so are these equations true
> here :
>
> (octave * 7)/12=fifth

Only true in 12-tone equal temperament, whether the octaves are tempered or not.
>
>(octave*5)/12=fourt

Again, only true in 12-equal.

> 2- i asked this question because I am starting a project in tehran
> university , music department, for measuring intervals of different
> masters.it is obvious that the system is positive with maj.second around
> 210 cent and fifth around 705 cent.

Fascinating. This may be the clerest statement made about Iranian tuning we've seen here for a long time.

>octave is also >stretched.

Then how could the fifth be 705 cents and the major second 210 cents? That seems to imply pure, 1200-cent octaves, since 705+705-210=1200. Unless this is a non-diatonic system you're regerring to . . .

>is there any
> temperament based on octave?

I don't really understand this question. But did you read the "Middle Path" paper I sent to you in Iran? That explains one of the reasons one might choose to temper the octave. Tempered octaves are also ubiquitous in Gamelan music and in the work of most piano tuners.
>
>
> Shaahin Mohaajeri
>
>
>
> Tombak Player & Researcher , Composer
>
> www.geocities.com/acousticsoftombak
>
> My tombak musics : www.rhythmweb.com/gdg
>
> My articles in ''Harmonytalk'':
>
> www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html
>
> www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html
>
> My article in DrumDojo:
>
> www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm
>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com>

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗Mohajeri Shahin <shahinm@kayson-ir.com>

Hi paul , yes , I have studide your article.

1- you are right , but every thing is possible in iranina music !! my be
assymetrical tetrachords and so on .... And may be stretched form of a
kind of well-temperament with different fifths .

2- I think tuning in iranian music is related to the inharmonicity of
sounds. I have analized sound of tar,se-tar and santoor and so the
stretched octave and positive fifth of tuning may be related to the
inaharmonicity of sound harmonics.

Shaahin Mohaajeri

Tombak Player & Researcher , Composer

www.geocities.com/acousticsoftombak

My tombak musics : www.rhythmweb.com/gdg

My articles in ''Harmonytalk'':

www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html
<http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html>

www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html
<http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html>

My article in DrumDojo:

www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm
<http://www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm>

________________________________

From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of paulerlich
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 1:41 AM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] Re: some question

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mohajeri Shahin" <shahinm@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all
>
> 1- in mails it was written about tempering octave. Does it mean to
have
> octave more than 1200 or less than it.

Yes!

>if so are these equations true
> here :
>
> (octave * 7)/12=fifth

Only true in 12-tone equal temperament, whether the octaves are tempered
or not.
>
>(octave*5)/12=fourt

Again, only true in 12-equal.

Fascinating. This may be the clerest statement made about Iranian tuning
we've seen here for a long time.

>octave is also >stretched.

Then how could the fifth be 705 cents and the major second 210 cents?
That seems to imply pure, 1200-cent octaves, since 705+705-210=1200.
Unless this is a non-diatonic system you're regerring to . . .

>is there any
> temperament based on octave?

I don't really understand this question. But did you read the "Middle
Path" paper I sent to you in Iran? That explains one of the reasons one
might choose to temper the octave. Tempered octaves are also ubiquitous
in Gamelan music and in the work of most piano tuners.
>
>
> Shaahin Mohaajeri
>
>
>
> Tombak Player & Researcher , Composer
>
> www.geocities.com/acousticsoftombak
>
> My tombak musics : www.rhythmweb.com/gdg
>
> My articles in ''Harmonytalk'':
>
> www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html
>
> www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html
>
> My article in DrumDojo:
>
> www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm
>

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🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
>
> Mohajeri Shahin escreveu:
> > 1- in mails it was written about tempering octave. Does it mean to have
> > octave more than 1200 or less than it.if so are these equations true
> > here :
> >
> > (octave * 7)/12=fifth
> >
> > (octave*5)/12=fourth
>
> The piano is tuned with a `stretched' octave (more than 1200 cents),
> because the inharmonicity of its tones. For example, a synthesized piano
> tone should use upper partials at about 5% (in frequency) above the
> nominal harmonics.

That just gives you a harmonic timbre at a slightly higher pitch. I don't think you meant "in frequency". And the inharmonicity goes up as the *square* of the harmonic number in piano strings.

> The pitches (for a keyboard) are adjusted
> accordingly, to sound `in tune'.
>
> Donald Hall's `Musical Acoustics' reports preferences for `octaves' of
> 1210 cents or more for melodic intervals, for both pure and harmonic
> complex tones. The same for sinusoidal tones presented simultaneously.
> But for complex tones with many harmonics presented as harmonic
> intervals and during at least 0.5 second, 1200 cents is without doubt
> the `in tune' octave.
>
> --
> '-------------------------------------------------------------------.
> Hudson Lacerda <http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/>
> *Não deixe seu voto sumir! http://www.votoseguro.org/
> *Apóie o Manifesto: http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/
>
> == THE WAR IN IRAQ COSTS ==
> http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182
> .-------------------------------------------------------------------'
> --
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Acesso Grátis - Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora!
> http://br.acesso.yahoo.com
>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

wallyesterpaulrus escreveu:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
[...]
>> The piano is tuned with a `stretched' octave (more than 1200
>> cents), because the inharmonicity of its tones. For example, a
>> synthesized piano tone should use upper partials at about 5% (in
>> frequency) above the nominal harmonics.
> > > That just gives you a harmonic timbre at a slightly higher pitch. I
> don't think you meant "in frequency". And the inharmonicity goes up
> as the *square* of the harmonic number in piano strings.

Oops, not `frequencies' but `frequency ratios' instead: multiply the pseudo-harmonics numbers by 1.05 to get its frequency ratios.

== THE WAR IN IRAQ COSTS ==
http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182
.-------------------------------------------------------------------'
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_______________________________________________________
Yahoo! Acesso Grï¿½tis - Internet rï¿½pida e grï¿½tis. Instale o discador agora!
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🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

🔗Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@yahoo.com.br>

wallyesterpaulrus escreveu:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@...> wrote:
> >>wallyesterpaulrus escreveu:
>>
>>>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Hudson Lacerda <hfmlacerda@> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>>The piano is tuned with a `stretched' octave (more than 1200
>>>>cents), because the inharmonicity of its tones. For example, a
>>>>synthesized piano tone should use upper partials at about 5% (in
>>>>frequency) above the nominal harmonics.
>>>
>>>
>>>That just gives you a harmonic timbre at a slightly higher pitch. I
>>>don't think you meant "in frequency". And the inharmonicity goes up
>>>as the *square* of the harmonic number in piano strings.
>>
>>Oops, not `frequencies' but `frequency ratios' instead: multiply the >>pseudo-harmonics numbers by 1.05 to get its frequency ratios.
> > > Again, this just gives you a harmonic timbre at a slightly higher pitch.

Oooooops!!! :-) Now I found my mistake: that rate of 5% was to be used in FM synthesis. (5% of carrier frequency is added to modulation frequencies in an example by Bill Schottstaedt.)

Cheers,

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