Micro hearing

I know this has been on the list for a bit, but I want to make a couple of comments. First, and hope all the Partch fans have their sense of humor intact, to use Partch's music as an indicator of how people hear microtones may be a bit risky, since, to use my St. Louis street terminology, a lot of his stuff is pretty weird ass shit, don't you think? And, a lot of what I've heard over the years would be pretty far removed from what many people would have been exposed to, musically, for the most part. Thus, the tuning aspects may well get mixed in with the strangeness of the music itself, and color how people respond. And, I'm not much on studies, either, I'm more interested in how folks respond in real situations, for the most part.
And, since I have 5 CD's out with micro music on them, and have done many microtonal gigs in various situations, I've had some interesting comments over the years. For example, on "If The Earth Was a Woman," my 4th disc, all the tunes but one are either 19, 34, or fretless. Yet, a guy said to me after he heard it, "I wish you had used your microtonal guitars on this CD." He didn't even realize what he was hearing, that was a lesson for sure. Also, I used to play a church gig for a small Hispanic service, we would do Mexican/Latin folk hymns and such, and we had a little choir of maybe 6-7 people (who were not really good singers). One day my 12 tone guitar was at someone's house, and I had to get to the gig, so I brough my 19 tone acoustic, didn't tell anybody, and played the usual tunes. Everybody sang the same as always, and nobody said a word, or gave me any funny looks...and, the tunes sounded, for the most part, exactly the same. That was fascinating to me. If anybody suspected anything, they didn't let me know. I've also played ordinary blues bars, did a set of 19 tone rock/blues, and folks danced as usual, didn't seem to notice anything unusual.
On the other hand, I lost a gig at a blue collar bar cause we played my OUT 19 tone stuff, and freaked folks way out...but, was it the tuning, or the heaviness and originality of the music? I suspect the music was more responsible in this case. Of course, I imagine there's many many possible circumstances involved with how people may or may not hear non 12 music, and I really do think a lot of it rests on just how accessible the music is in the first place. And, as a final anecdote (sense of humor again, please), a local DJ, who plays occasional microtonal stuff on his show, chose the one 12 tone piece to play from "If the Earth Was a Woman" as a microtonal selection...how about that? On that disc, I decided not to label the tunes, and make people use their ears only...interesting....best HHH
microstick.net

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@m...> wrote:

> And, since I have 5 CD's out with micro music on them, and have
done
> many microtonal gigs in various situations, I've had some interesting
> comments over the years. For example, on "If The Earth Was a Woman,"
my 4th
> disc, all the tunes but one are either 19, 34, or fretless. Yet, a
guy said
> to me after he heard it, "I wish you had used your microtonal
guitars on
> this CD." He didn't even realize what he was hearing, that was a
lesson for
> sure.

This could be as a result of something I mentioned in this thread,
which is that it seems you can get away with 5-limit microtonality.
Something in 34-et, on a bedrock of basically 5-limit harmony, is
going to draw a very different reaction than if septimal or higher
limit harmony comes into the picture. In particular, if the septimal
harmonic movement is involved in an essential way, with chord
relationships involving shared 7/6, 7/5, or 7/4 intervals prominant.

Hi Neil,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@m...> wrote:
>
> First, and hope all the Partch fans have their sense of humor
> intact...

Quite frequently, nothing makes me laugh more than the tuning list! I
*always* try to keep the humor in it. Note the word "try"... :)

>...to use Partch's music as an indicator of how people hear microtones
> may be a bit risky, since, to use my St. Louis street terminology, a
lot of
> his stuff is pretty weird ass shit, don't you think?

Well, as at least one other person pointed out, there are so many
inharmonic elements to his instrumental mix that it is _hardly_ the
place to listen SPECIFICALLY to tuning. But it really brings up a
point, the ties directly in to your post over on MMM about the end
result of where the microtones are leading to:

1. are you listening to pitches or
2. are you listening to music?

I'm NOT saying that to be inflamatory in the least bit. There is, and
always will be, music and/or pieces that start life and end life as a
place to showcase non-12 resources. I don't have any problem with that
at all. But, as you say, Partch isn't a good subject for either:

1. straight listening for microtonality
2. unadventurous (content-wise) listeners

When one listens to music by Partch (and, of course, that covers a lot
of ground), you aren't probably going to like it - microtones or not!
- if you don't like other adventurous music. What I observed, over the
duration of 15+ years of performing it live, was that audiences were
won over by the content, and didn't sit around saying "it is out of
tune". In fact, what I, and others in the ensemble, found was that of
all the elements of his compositions, the intonational area was
probably the least important in the overall impact. Yes, the
microtones are there, and yes, the music - as he conceived and wrote
it - couldn't be done without them. But the microtonal fabric of his
language is so much a part of the content he wanted to create that it
doesn't come across as a separate entity, where one would want to hear
the same piece but played on a piano or something.

I'm afraid I'm quite un-eloquent this afternoon.

Weird-ass? I hope so, though he would probably call it an entirely
different serving of tapioca. :) I just finished transferring some of
the master tapes of Partch talking about some of these elements for a
final release on the Innova series, and there is a great quote on
microtonality I'll have to digitize and post somewhere. Soon, I hope...

Content is king.

Cheers,
Jon

> First, and hope all the Partch fans have their sense of humor
> intact, to use Partch's music as an indicator of how people hear
> microtones may be a bit risky, since, to use my St. Louis street
> terminology, a lot of his stuff is pretty weird ass shit, don't
> you think? And, a lot of what I've heard over the years would be
> pretty far removed from what many people would have been exposed
> to, musically, for the most part. Thus, the tuning aspects may
> well get mixed in with the strangeness of the music itself, and
> color how people respond.

Very good point.

> Also, I used to play a church gig for a small Hispanic service,
> we would do Mexican/Latin folk hymns and such, and we had a
> little choir of maybe 6-7 people (who were not really good
> singers). One day my 12 tone guitar was at someone's house, and
> I had to get to the gig, so I brough my 19 tone acoustic, didn't
> tell anybody, and played the usual tunes. Everybody sang the
> same as always, and nobody said a word, or gave me any funny
> looks...and, the tunes sounded, for the most part, exactly the
> same. That was fascinating to me. If anybody suspected anything,
> they didn't let me know.

Great story. I've always thought my choice, if and when I
start performing micro music publicly, would be not to tell
anything about the tuning. When I saw you guys play in Denver
in '98, I thought the audience would have enjoyed the show much
more had you not given a tuning lecture before playing. But
educating listeners is good too, so I'm not saying you were
wrong to do it. I do remember hearing some guys discussing it
at the urinals... :)

> On that disc, I decided not to label the tunes,
> and make people use their ears only...interesting....

Excellent!

-Carl

Hi Brother Neil and Assorted Microtonalists,

One of these years I'm going to pass through Colorado
again, and this time I'm going to look you up! I've
known about your music for many years. I wonder if
you've known about me and my kits of Tom
Stone-designed magnetic interchangeable fretboards?

I've enjoyed many of your astute, folksy posts to the
tuning list, including the one below that I'm replying
to concerning how people respond to microtones, and to
what they think are microtones. I've had people look
at my staggered frets and say they're "far out", and
that my music "sounds good and all", and then their
tone of voice changes and they sort of groan, "but
isn't that an awful lot to have to learn?" They're
always amazed when I tell them that the chord shapes
stay the same, as long as they're careful to stop the
strings behind the frets in the usual manner.

I've had many people pick up my Martin acoustic guitar
with a staggered J.I. fretboard and play it absolutely
flawlessly the first time they've ever touched a
microtonal guitar! Humans are so variable!

My final observation is about hearing, and it's in the
realm of constructive criticism. It is not an attack
or a put-down: My ear hears that album title of yours
not musically, but grammatically, as "If The Earth
Were A Woman". "Was" is the past tense, is it not, as
in "If the earth was a woman to people ten thousand
years ago, what is she today?", or am I just "over
educated"?

As they say in Denmark, Have it Good!

-- Mark Rankin

--- Neil Haverstick <microstick@msn.com> wrote:

> I know this has been on the list for a bit, but I
> want to make a couple
> of comments. First, and hope all the Partch fans
> have their sense of humor
> intact, to use Partch's music as an indicator of how
> people hear microtones
> may be a bit risky, since, to use my St. Louis
> street terminology, a lot of
> his stuff is pretty weird ass shit, don't you think?
> And, a lot of what I've
> heard over the years would be pretty far removed
> from what many people would
> have been exposed to, musically, for the most part.
> Thus, the tuning aspects
> may well get mixed in with the strangeness of the
> music itself, and color
> how people respond. And, I'm not much on studies,
> either, I'm more
> interested in how folks respond in real situations,
> for the most part.
> And, since I have 5 CD's out with micro music on
> them, and have done
> many microtonal gigs in various situations, I've had
> some interesting
> comments over the years. For example, on "If The
> Earth Was a Woman," my 4th
> disc, all the tunes but one are either 19, 34, or
> fretless. Yet, a guy said
> to me after he heard it, "I wish you had used your
> microtonal guitars on
> this CD." He didn't even realize what he was
> hearing, that was a lesson for
> sure. Also, I used to play a church gig for a small
> Hispanic service, we
> would do Mexican/Latin folk hymns and such, and we
> had a little choir of
> maybe 6-7 people (who were not really good singers).
> One day my 12 tone
> guitar was at someone's house, and I had to get to
> the gig, so I brough my
> 19 tone acoustic, didn't tell anybody, and played
> the usual tunes. Everybody
> sang the same as always, and nobody said a word, or
> gave me any funny
> looks...and, the tunes sounded, for the most part,
> exactly the same. That
> was fascinating to me. If anybody suspected
> anything, they didn't let me
> know. I've also played ordinary blues bars, did a
> set of 19 tone rock/blues,
> and folks danced as usual, didn't seem to notice
> anything unusual.
> On the other hand, I lost a gig at a blue collar
> bar cause we played my
> OUT 19 tone stuff, and freaked folks way out...but,
> was it the tuning, or
> the heaviness and originality of the music? I
> suspect the music was more
> responsible in this case. Of course, I imagine
> there's many many possible
> circumstances involved with how people may or may
> not hear non 12 music, and
> I really do think a lot of it rests on just how
> accessible the music is in
> the first place. And, as a final anecdote (sense of
> humor again, please), a
> local DJ, who plays occasional microtonal stuff on
> his show, chose the one
> 12 tone piece to play from "If the Earth Was a
> Woman" as a microtonal
> selection...how about that? On that disc, I decided
> not to label the tunes,
> and make people use their ears
> only...interesting....best HHH
> microstick.net
>
>
>

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Here's a few anecdotes from reality about how people hear: I just sent "Stick Man" to a guitarist in the Netherlands, and he didn't realize it was micro music till he read the press stuff I sent..and he's an accomplished musician (it's all 19 and 34 tone). Then, a local friend of mine heard a new piece in 12 I'm working on, and thought it was microtonal. In fact, I'm delighted that my micro stuff doesn't sound micro...that means the music works as music, which is really what I'm after anyway. There's probably an infinite number of ways to percieve music...when I did a concert on fretless a few years ago (tuned to certain overtones), a woman wrote me a letter about the piece, and remarked that there must have been something unusual about the tuning I used, because the music took her to some way out there places. So this piece DID definitely sound different, somehow, and that's because it really is...the tuning, and the piece itself, doesn't remotely sound familiar...HHH
microstick.net

Do you have any sound samples online?

Joe

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@...>
wrote:
>
> Here's a few anecdotes from reality about how people hear: I
just sent
> "Stick Man" to a guitarist in the Netherlands, and he didn't
realize it was
> micro music till he read the press stuff I sent..and he's an
accomplished
> musician (it's all 19 and 34 tone). Then, a local friend of mine
heard a new
> piece in 12 I'm working on, and thought it was microtonal. In fact,
I'm
> delighted that my micro stuff doesn't sound micro...that means the
music
> works as music, which is really what I'm after anyway. There's
probably an
> infinite number of ways to percieve music...when I did a concert on
fretless
> a few years ago (tuned to certain overtones), a woman wrote me a
letter
> about the piece, and remarked that there must have been something
unusual
> about the tuning I used, because the music took her to some way out
there
> places. So this piece DID definitely sound different, somehow, and
that's
> because it really is...the tuning, and the piece itself, doesn't
remotely
> sound familiar...HHH
> microstick.net
>

Neil,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@...> wrote:
>
> Here's a few anecdotes from reality about how people hear...

"reality"? Oh, Neil, you're no fun! :)

> In fact, I'm
> delighted that my micro stuff doesn't sound micro...that means the
music
> works as music, which is really what I'm after anyway.

I think we're in a minority in that respect. I know someone else is
asking as well, but unless you've changed your personal site recently
I don't recall there being any music clips up there. I think it would
be great if you had a small representative sampling of your work that
people could check out, Mr. H.

Cheers,
Jon

Hi Neil, you have raised some interesting points. Since Indian music
is microtonal, how do the Western audiences listen to it? And, when
they get immersed in it, what is it that they like?

Regards,
Haresh.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@...> wrote:

.....................

>>>> Here's a few anecdotes from reality about how people hear: I
just sent ............... >>>>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <jszanto@...> wrote:
>
> Neil,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@> wrote:
> >
> > Here's a few anecdotes from reality about how people hear...
>
> "reality"? Oh, Neil, you're no fun! :)
>
> > In fact, I'm
> > delighted that my micro stuff doesn't sound micro...that means the
> music
> > works as music, which is really what I'm after anyway.
>
> I think we're in a minority in that respect. I know someone else is
> asking as well, but unless you've changed your personal site recently
> I don't recall there being any music clips up there. I think it would
> be great if you had a small representative sampling of your work that
> people could check out, Mr. H.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

I'm with you guys (as I hope is obvious) that if the listener is hearing:
"Oh, the third is a little flatter than usual" then they aren't hearing
the music. I want my (potential future) microtonal music to stick
out from the 12TET world, but not because everyone thinks it is
different. I want everyone to think it is better and has more extremes
of both consonance and dissonance without being fatigueing or
unnerving, but the average listener should not focus on how the heck
I did that.

-Aaron