How Do Microtonal People Hear? (Partch is the best test?)

I wouldn't think that Partch would be a good test of whether or not JI sounds "in tune" to "ordinary" people. Because, whatever the tuning, Partch <is> cacophonic in many ways (all those metals and glasses!). That's why we love him!

Plus his timbres don't really demonstrate JI "locked-in-ed-ness" very well, (except the Chromolodoen and a few others).

If I were you, I'd play people Young's "The Well-Tuned Piano" . . . I can't imagine someone hearing that and thinking the tuning isn't "right" in that piece. Yes, they'll say it's "other-worldly" or "New Agey"--(which aren't entirely inaccurate)--but I can't imagine anyone thinking, "gee, I wish this piece were in 12-tet".

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Bailey <chris@m...> wrote:

> If I were you, I'd play people Young's "The Well-Tuned Piano" . . . I
> can't imagine someone hearing that and thinking the tuning isn't
"right"
> in that piece. Yes, they'll say it's "other-worldly" or "New
> Agey"--(which aren't entirely inaccurate)--but I can't imagine anyone
> thinking, "gee, I wish this piece were in 12-tet".

This scale (young-lm_piano in the Scala directory) is like the scale I
cooked up for Aaron Johnson--it is a no-fives scale. Hence, there are
no complete 7-limit tetrads in the resulting music. I'd be interested
if someone were to actually perform this or similar experiments with
microtonal music, and find out what it is the basis of xenharmophobia.

Gene Ward Smith escreveu:
...
> This scale (young-lm_piano in the Scala directory) is like the scale I
> cooked up for Aaron Johnson--it is a no-fives scale. Hence, there are
> no complete 7-limit tetrads in the resulting music. I'd be interested
> if someone were to actually perform this or similar experiments with
> microtonal music, and find out what it is the basis of xenharmophobia.
...

I don't know microtonal/tuning jargon yet. Can someone give an example of a 7-limit JI scale (.scl syntax)? I found harm7limit.scl, but when normalized it miss a good minor 9th, a good perfect 4th...

Concerning to "xenharmophobia", there are many interfering causes.

Here are my 2 cents:

Intervals like 7/6, 7/5 etc. can be considered consonant when isolated, but the same intervals can be considered "out of tune" in certain contexts.

For me, when the lower pitch (of an interval) is contextually a root (fundamental) tone, I find 5/4 quite well tuned. But I cannot accept 9/7 as "well tuned" until I can recognize it as a "high harmony" it is -- the lower pitch is *not* a fundamental tone, but a 7th harmonic.

Another interesting comparation is between aug.4th and dim.5th from 19-ET. Both can sound detuned until one can understand them.

The relation between material and context is also very important. For example, there are microtonal music pieces which are not "really" (in its essence) microtonal, but convencional tonal western music with a few "add-ons", instead. "Perfect" triads in 15-ET, for example, sounds horribly out of tune, because they are similar to that old and well known material, but distorted and off context. Neoclassic music in 15-ET probably sounds "wrong". So, if your scale have no tuned 3rds and 5ths, forget triads! Use other more characteristic (scale specific) intervals and chords.

Still there is the case of people who have "perfect pitch". If they are limited to 12-ET, alternative tunings possibly sound out of tune for such people. (By the other side, it seems that Alois H�ba, an important microtonalist, had "perfect pitch".)

Regards,
Hudson

P.S.:

To 12-EDO reluctant listeners, try the following:

0) Use only (synthesised) perfectly harmonic timbres (organ-like), without vibrato or other effects; the sound should be nice, however.
1) Generate some tunings of the major triad: from JI, 12-EDO and 1/4 comma meantone. Include also a bad meantone degree's (Db?) major triad. (Transpose all triads to the same root.)
2) Play the probe triads to the listeners, and ask them to sort the triads according to the deegree of consonance they perceive.
3) Tell them what is the tuning for each triad.

This experiment can be an interesting introduction to tunings and microtonalism.

--
Hudson Lacerda <http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/hfmlacerda/>
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Hudson Lacerda wrote:

> Still there is the case of people who have "perfect pitch". If they are > limited to 12-ET, alternative tunings possibly sound out of tune for > such people. (By the other side, it seems that Alois H�ba, an important > microtonalist, had "perfect pitch".)

I can't speak for everyone with "perfect pitch", but in my perception, a single note can't be "out of tune" in itself. I learned to play the piano on an old instrument that was tuned flat, but as long as it was in tune with itself, it sounded "right". (On the other hand, that could account for why I prefer tuning my "reference" notes slightly flat compared with A=440: two that I've used are C=256 and D=290.) What sounds out of tune is when two notes "clash" in a musical context that they shouldn't be clashing. Even strong dissonances don't sound "out of tune" if the context and the quality of the performance makes it clear that these are exactly the right notes at the right time. But out of context, any interval with a certain amount of beating will sound "out of tune", while intervals with less beating might sound pleasantly detuned (I happen to prefer slightly sharpened octaves for the extra color and warmth they bring to dull electronic timbres).