van halen on guitar tuning

interesting bit from--of all places--a Van Halen wikipedia entry:

Tuning
Though rarely discussed, one of the most distinctive aspects of Van
Halen's sound was Eddie Van Halen's tuning of the guitar. Before Van
Halen, most distorted, metal-oriented rock consciously avoided the
use of the major third interval in guitar chords, creating instead
the signature power chord of the genre. When run through a distorted
amplifier, the rapid beating of the major third on a conventionally
tuned guitar is distracting and somewhat dissonant. Van Halen
developed a technique of flatting his B string slightly so that the
interval between the open G and B is a perfect, beatless third. This
consonant third was almost unheard of in distorted-guitar rock, and
allowed Van Halen to use major chords in a way that mixed classic
hard rock power with "happy" pop. The effect is pronounced on songs
such as "Runnin' With the Devil", "Unchained", and "Where Have All
the Good Times Gone?".

With the B string flatted the correct amount, chords in some
positions on the guitar have perfect thirds, but in other positions
the flat B string creates terribly out of tune intervals. Van Halen
is quoted as saying, "...the guitar... is just theoretically built
wrong. Because every string — the intervals are fourths, except for
from G to B, which is a third, and it's always that damn B string
that fucks it up. So I always tune it a little bit flat, and then
when I need it in tune, I just bend it up. Because once it's sharp,
you can't make it flat! Over the years, you know, it's just a feel
thing, you develop a feel for when you hit a certain chord, you know
how to manipulate the string to make it in tune."

Despite his wording above, Van Halen does not flat the B string for
everything. "The B string is always [difficult] to keep in tune all
the time! So I have to retune for certain songs. And when I use the
Floyd onstage, I have to unclamp it and do it real quick. But with a
standard-vibrato guitar, I can tune it while I'm playing." (Quote
refers to an early version of the Floyd Rose system with no fine
tuners on the bridge.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Van_Halen

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
<daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:

> Tuning
> Though rarely discussed, one of the most distinctive aspects of Van
> Halen's sound was Eddie Van Halen's tuning of the guitar. Before Van
> Halen, most distorted, metal-oriented rock consciously avoided the
> use of the major third interval in guitar chords, creating instead
> the signature power chord of the genre. When run through a distorted
> amplifier, the rapid beating of the major third on a conventionally
> tuned guitar is distracting and somewhat dissonant. Van Halen
> developed a technique of flatting his B string slightly so that the
> interval between the open G and B is a perfect, beatless third.

One wonders what Van Halen would think of a 1/4-comma meantone guitar.
It sounds like it could be quite the thing for heavy metal.

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "daniel_anthony_stearns"
> <daniel_anthony_stearns@y...> wrote:
>
>> Tuning
>> Though rarely discussed, one of the most distinctive aspects of Van
>> Halen's sound was Eddie Van Halen's tuning of the guitar. Before Van
>> Halen, most distorted, metal-oriented rock consciously avoided the
>> use of the major third interval in guitar chords, creating instead
>> the signature power chord of the genre. When run through a distorted
>> amplifier, the rapid beating of the major third on a conventionally
>> tuned guitar is distracting and somewhat dissonant. Van Halen
>> developed a technique of flatting his B string slightly so that the
>> interval between the open G and B is a perfect, beatless third.
>
> One wonders what Van Halen would think of a 1/4-comma meantone guitar.
> It sounds like it could be quite the thing for heavy metal.

In my experience, some guitarists are offended even by the tempering done by 12edo when they use heavy distortion. They don't like tuning their guitars to match a synthesizer's perfect 12edo. Distortion makes beating much more obvious.

Interesting.

I play acoustic guitar, a the tuning I like to use (suggested by a colleague -- Eduardo Campolina) is:

0) Tune low E, A and D with just forths;

1) Tune B and high E according to low E (just intervals);

2) Tune G a bit above the just 4th above A. This can be made using the 3rd harmonics of 3rd and 4th strings. 3rd string's 3rd harmonic should sound less than 1 Hz above 4th string's 4rd harmonic. It's sufficient count the beats.

This works at A=440Hz, because:

(440/4) * (4/3) * 4 == 586.67Hz
5th str 4th str 4th harm

while the frequency for 12-ET pitch D (near 3rd harmonic of G) is 587.33Hz.

The beating frequency is:

587.33 - 586.67 == 0.66Hz

Regards,
Hudson

daniel_anthony_stearns escreveu:
> interesting bit from--of all places--a Van Halen wikipedia entry:
> > Tuning
...
> With the B string flatted the correct amount, chords in some > positions on the guitar have perfect thirds, but in other positions > the flat B string creates terribly out of tune intervals. Van Halen ....
> Despite his wording above, Van Halen does not flat the B string for > everything. "The B string is always [difficult] to keep in tune all > the time! So I have to retune for certain songs. And when I use the > Floyd onstage, I have to unclamp it and do it real quick. But with a > standard-vibrato guitar, I can tune it while I'm playing." (Quote > refers to an early version of the Floyd Rose system with no fine > tuners on the bridge.)
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Van_Halen

--
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*N�o deixe seu voto sumir! http://www.votoseguro.org/
*Ap�ie o Manifesto: http://www.votoseguro.com/alertaprofessores/

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Hi Gene and Magnus,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@s...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> > One wonders what Van Halen would think of a 1/4-comma
> > meantone guitar. It sounds like it could be quite the
> > thing for heavy metal.
>
> In my experience, some guitarists are offended even by
> the tempering done by 12edo when they use heavy distortion.
> They don't like tuning their guitars to match a synthesizer's
> perfect 12edo. Distortion makes beating much more obvious.

Gene, Magnus practically took the words right out of my
mouth (or off of my fingertips?).

The narrow 5ths of meantone would never work with the
distortion cranked up. The "power chord" mentioned in
the Wikipedia article on Van Halen is described by never
really explained: it's a chord which is basically just
a dyad, containing only the root and 5th of the chord
and their octaves. A meantone version of that with
distortion would surely sound horrid.

Any guitarists out there care to make some demo mp3's
so that we can all hear it? A 31-edo electric guitar
would be close enough to give the general idea.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@s...> wrote:

> > One wonders what Van Halen would think of a 1/4-comma meantone guitar.
> > It sounds like it could be quite the thing for heavy metal.
>
> In my experience, some guitarists are offended even by the tempering
done
> by 12edo when they use heavy distortion. They don't like tuning their
> guitars to match a synthesizer's perfect 12edo. Distortion makes
beating
> much more obvious.

The fifths are flatter, but over all the beating should be much less
and hence less of a problem. As for the synthesizers, if all it can do
is 12edo then clearly you need a better synthesizer.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:

> The narrow 5ths of meantone would never work with the
> distortion cranked up. The "power chord" mentioned in
> the Wikipedia article on Van Halen is described by never
> really explained: it's a chord which is basically just
> a dyad, containing only the root and 5th of the chord
> and their octaves. A meantone version of that with
> distortion would surely sound horrid.

The 12-et major third is sharp by 13 2/3 cents; 1/4 of a comma is two
and a half times smaller than that. It hardly seems likely it would be
as big a problem as the thirds were. Moreover, if we used your
favorite 55-et system, the fifths would be flat by only 3.77 cents,
and this is getting down to the level where many people would regard
it as pretty well negligable.

> Any guitarists out there care to make some demo mp3's
> so that we can all hear it? A 31-edo electric guitar
> would be close enough to give the general idea.

If I had some midi files I might retune them; midi has overdriven
guitar, distorted guitar, and something called guitar harmonics.
Pieces using the overdriven and distorted midi instruments might work
for experiments. What would be some good pieces to experiment on?

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@s...> wrote:
>
>>> One wonders what Van Halen would think of a 1/4-comma meantone guitar.
>>> It sounds like it could be quite the thing for heavy metal.
>>
>> In my experience, some guitarists are offended even by the tempering
> done
>> by 12edo when they use heavy distortion. They don't like tuning their
>> guitars to match a synthesizer's perfect 12edo. Distortion makes
> beating
>> much more obvious.
>
> The fifths are flatter, but over all the beating should be much less
> and hence less of a problem. As for the synthesizers, if all it can do
> is 12edo then clearly you need a better synthesizer.

That would be true if it wasn't for the fact that fifths are much more important for this music style than thirds, which are avoided for their bad sound when distorted. If you make the thirds good and the fifths bad instead you'll end up with another music style. That might be interesting in itself.

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>
>> Any guitarists out there care to make some demo mp3's
>> so that we can all hear it? A 31-edo electric guitar
>> would be close enough to give the general idea.
>
> If I had some midi files I might retune them; midi has overdriven
> guitar, distorted guitar, and something called guitar harmonics.
> Pieces using the overdriven and distorted midi instruments might work
> for experiments. What would be some good pieces to experiment on?

This will not work. When you play a real electric guitar you have 6 strings all feeding into the same amplifier, which distorts the sum signal of all strings. This produces intermodulation distortion. When you play a midi distorted guitar patch, you conceptually have 128 strings all feeding to it's own amplifier. This does not produce intermodulation distortion.

real guitar and amp:
output-sound = distort(sum-over-strings(string-output))

general midi distorted guitar (a bit simplified for clarity):

output-sound = sum-over-strings(distort(string-output))

As for 4 cents deviation in tuning. When you use heavy distortion, the difference tone of two notes that you play (or even the beating rate between them, for high notes) becomes more prominent than the actual notes you play. All notes you play fuses together to form something else related.

For a 440:660 fifth, you will hear a difference tone of 220 Hz.

For a 4 cent narrow fifth of 440:658.5, you will hear a difference tone of 218.5 Hz. This is a mistuning of -11.84 cents, big enough to be noticable. And of course the timbre beats at a rate of 1.5 Hz or some multiple of it. That's not steady enough by hard rock standards.

You really want close-to-just ratios when working with distortion, since deviations are much more obvious than with non-distorted sound. And the fifth is more harmonically important than the third.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant :)

- Magnus

Hi Daniel,

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 daniel_anthony_stearns wrote:
>
> interesting bit from--of all places--a Van Halen wikipedia entry:
>
> Tuning
> Though rarely discussed, one of the most distinctive aspects of Van
> Halen's sound was Eddie Van Halen's tuning of the guitar. Before Van
> Halen, most distorted, metal-oriented rock consciously avoided the
> use of the major third interval in guitar chords, creating instead
> the signature power chord of the genre. When run through a distorted
> amplifier, the rapid beating of the major third on a conventionally
> tuned guitar is distracting and somewhat dissonant. Van Halen
> developed a technique of flatting his B string slightly so that the
> interval between the open G and B is a perfect, beatless third. This
> consonant third was almost unheard of in distorted-guitar rock, and
> allowed Van Halen to use major chords in a way that mixed classic
> hard rock power with "happy" pop. The effect is pronounced on songs
> such as "Runnin' With the Devil", "Unchained", and "Where Have All
> the Good Times Gone?".
>
> With the B string flatted the correct amount, chords in some
> positions on the guitar have perfect thirds, but in other positions
> the flat B string creates terribly out of tune intervals. Van Halen
> is quoted as saying, "...the guitar... is just theoretically built
> wrong. Because every string � the intervals are fourths, except for
> from G to B, which is a third, and it's always that damn B string
> that fucks it up. So I always tune it a little bit flat, and then
> when I need it in tune, I just bend it up. Because once it's sharp,
> you can't make it flat! Over the years, you know, it's just a feel
> thing, you develop a feel for when you hit a certain chord, you know
> how to manipulate the string to make it in tune."
>
> Despite his wording above, Van Halen does not flat the B string for
> everything. "The B string is always [difficult] to keep in tune all
> the time! So I have to retune for certain songs. And when I use the
> Floyd onstage, I have to unclamp it and do it real quick. But with a
> standard-vibrato guitar, I can tune it while I'm playing." (Quote
> refers to an early version of the Floyd Rose system with no fine
> tuners on the bridge.)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Van_Halen

Neat! Also explains *why* the power chord is favoured
by distortion players over the major chord.

Of course, there are many other tunings he could have
used that have no thirds, only fourths; but most of those
I've tried seem to have harder fingering for the usual
chords. Eg dropping the first four strings by a semitone.

But try dropping the first, second and sixths strings by a
tone to give an open G major tuning
D3 G3 D4 G4 B5 D5
much like the seven-string "Russian" guitar tuning
D3 G3 B4 D4 G4 B5 D5
but a little more open in the bass. That extra B4 on the
"Russian" guitar impies a lower fundamental tone, I think.

That tuning makes playing many major chords just a
matter of applying a barr� across all strings.

Regards,
Yahya

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 Magnus Jonsson wrote:
>
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> >
> >> Any guitarists out there care to make some demo mp3's
> >> so that we can all hear it? A 31-edo electric guitar
> >> would be close enough to give the general idea.
> >
> > If I had some midi files I might retune them; midi has overdriven
> > guitar, distorted guitar, and something called guitar harmonics.
> > Pieces using the overdriven and distorted midi instruments might work
> > for experiments. What would be some good pieces to experiment on?
>
> This will not work. When you play a real electric guitar you have 6
> strings all feeding into the same amplifier, which distorts the sum signal
> of all strings. This produces intermodulation distortion. When you play a
> midi distorted guitar patch, you conceptually have 128 strings all feeding
> to it's own amplifier. This does not produce intermodulation distortion.
>
> real guitar and amp:
> output-sound = distort(sum-over-strings(string-output))
>
> general midi distorted guitar (a bit simplified for clarity):
>
> output-sound = sum-over-strings(distort(string-output))
>
>
> As for 4 cents deviation in tuning. When you use heavy distortion, the
> difference tone of two notes that you play (or even the beating rate
> between them, for high notes) becomes more prominent than the actual notes
> you play. All notes you play fuses together to form something else
> related.
>
> For a 440:660 fifth, you will hear a difference tone of 220 Hz.
>
> For a 4 cent narrow fifth of 440:658.5, you will hear a difference tone of
> 218.5 Hz. This is a mistuning of -11.84 cents, big enough to be noticable.
> And of course the timbre beats at a rate of 1.5 Hz or some multiple of it.
> That's not steady enough by hard rock standards.
>
> You really want close-to-just ratios when working with distortion, since
> deviations are much more obvious than with non-distorted sound. And the
> fifth is more harmonically important than the third.
>
> Sorry if this sounds like a rant :)

Not at all, Magnus, you're just telling it like it is. :-)

There's *no way* I can make my MIDI keyboard,
nice distortion guitar sound tho it has, get the
right "intermodulation distortion" sound, as you
call it, even with the fifths tuned pure. There's
too much missing.

Slightly OT - can anyone explain exactly what a
distortion pedal does to the guitar timbre? In
tuning terms, of course!

And what is "intermodulation" really? Suggests
that each sounding string is affecting each of
the others - but if so, how, exactly?

Regards,
Yahya

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:

> There's *no way* I can make my MIDI keyboard,
> nice distortion guitar sound tho it has, get the
> right "intermodulation distortion" sound, as you
> call it, even with the fifths tuned pure. There's
> too much missing.

The fault is not in the keyboard, surely. How successful have the
attempts been to duplicate the effect, and why have they not gotten it?
After all, it's an electronic effect to start with.

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> The fault is not in the keyboard, surely. How successful have the
> attempts been to duplicate the effect, and why have they not gotten it?
> After all, it's an electronic effect to start with.

There are very good digital emulations of distortion, but General MIDI keyboards won't usually use them. The wiring's similar for all patches. The distortion guitar is a sample of a distorted guitar and it won't sound right in chords.

I've got a meantone guitar and I never had a problem with the 3-limit chords. They sound different to 12-equal but still good. And full major chords sound good as well. I don't have an easy way to record it now I'm afraid. I'll suggest that plugging a keyboard with "nylon guitar" into a guitar distortion box should be close enough to give you the general but golden ears don't like it when I do that.

Graham

Gene Ward Smith wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:
> > >>There's *no way* I can make my MIDI keyboard,
>>nice distortion guitar sound tho it has, get the
>>right "intermodulation distortion" sound, as you
>>call it, even with the fifths tuned pure. There's
>>too much missing.
> > > The fault is not in the keyboard, surely. How successful have the
> attempts been to duplicate the effect, and why have they not gotten it?
> After all, it's an electronic effect to start with.

Maybe it is more of an electric effect, I'm not sure about these fine distinctions.

The fault lies in assuming that the clean output of a sound called "distorted" equals the distorted output of a sound. In fact, many keyboards have integrated effect processors, and may in fact be able to synthesize real distortion.

With an amplifier, turn the gain way up high. Alternatively, do the same with your cheapest computer speakers. The input sound won't matter any more, and there is nothing inherently wrong with using a keyboard in place of a guitar. Didn't the United States of America simulate a rock combo sound with a violin for the lead and a clavichord for the rhythm parts?

klaus

This thread reminds me of when my Chapman Stick playing friend came to
me for suggestions on resolving an issue between himself and his
guitarist. They had trouble playing in tune with one another, despite
both having fretted instruments. He eventually decided to use ideas
from the stretch tuning scheme described in an old Rhodes manual,
tuning higher strings sharper and lower strings flatter - each string
to a different cent value.

I know of one other Stick player who reported interpersonal tuning
issues - his was with the violist in the band. I forgot the details
though - I suspect it was because she insisted on tuning her
instrument the tradional Western way - in a sequence of pure 5ths. My
last viola instructor was more accommodating - she used a standard
guitar tuner if she was going to play with a guitarist, for example.

hey all

noticed in the wikipedia entry for tenney's *for ann (rising)*
polansky's ref to a 'phi' regeneration, +i'm guessing maybe one of you
guys wrote the entry?

anyway, i made a phi version in '98 when i had jim over to dartington
college of arts, in england, for a residency. made it in Csound with jo
hyde's help (dartington), jim's specs, and tom erbe's advice.

listened to it with jim in the studio there (comparing to the
original), +put on a performance.

it's a shame it's just sat in my office since then. is anyone
interested in checking it out/discussing it?
ciarán

ciarán maher

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, ciarán maher <ciaran@r...> wrote:

> it's a shame it's just sat in my office since then. is anyone
> interested in checking it out/discussing it?

I'd be happy to host it if I could get permissions.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, ciarán maher <ciaran@r...> wrote:
>
> hey all
>
> noticed in the wikipedia entry for tenney's *for ann (rising)*
> polansky's ref to a 'phi' regeneration, +i'm guessing maybe one of you
> guys wrote the entry?
>
> anyway, i made a phi version in '98 when i had jim over to dartington
> college of arts, in england, for a residency. made it in Csound with jo
> hyde's help (dartington), jim's specs, and tom erbe's advice.
>
> listened to it with jim in the studio there (comparing to the
> original), +put on a performance.
>
> it's a shame it's just sat in my office since then. is anyone
> interested in checking it out/discussing it?
> ciarán
>
> ciarán maher

I'd like to hear it!

Kalle Aho

Would definitely like to hear it! Any chance of making the Csound orc/sco available for study?

- Dave

ciar�n maher wrote:
> hey all
> > noticed in the wikipedia entry for tenney's *for ann (rising)* > polansky's ref to a 'phi' regeneration, +i'm guessing maybe one of you > guys wrote the entry?
> > anyway, i made a phi version in '98 when i had jim over to dartington > college of arts, in england, for a residency. made it in Csound with jo > hyde's help (dartington), jim's specs, and tom erbe's advice.
> > listened to it with jim in the studio there (comparing to the original), > +put on a performance.
> > it's a shame it's just sat in my office since then. is anyone interested > in checking it out/discussing it?
> ciar�n
> > *ciar�n maher*
>

i'll check re permissions +put it on my site if it's cool

i'll keep the list posted
c

On 29 Ean 2006, at 22:23, Kalle Aho wrote:

>
>
> I'd like to hear it!
>
> Kalle Aho
ciarán maher
rhizomecowboy.com

for sure, i'll try to dig them out. it was just a few lines.
c

On 29 Ean 2006, at 22:51, Dave Seidel wrote:

> Any chance of making the Csound
> orc/sco available for study?
ciarán maher
rhizomecowboy.com

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>
> Hi Gene and Magnus,
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@s...> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>
> > > One wonders what Van Halen would think of a 1/4-comma
> > > meantone guitar. It sounds like it could be quite the
> > > thing for heavy metal.
> >
> > In my experience, some guitarists are offended even by
> > the tempering done by 12edo when they use heavy distortion.
> > They don't like tuning their guitars to match a synthesizer's
> > perfect 12edo. Distortion makes beating much more obvious.
>
>
>
> Gene, Magnus practically took the words right out of my
> mouth (or off of my fingertips?).
>
> The narrow 5ths of meantone would never work with the
> distortion cranked up.

Never work? Do you own a meantone guitar? Have you played it with
distortion? From my experience, I'd guess you haven't.

> The "power chord" mentioned in
> the Wikipedia article on Van Halen is described by never
> really explained: it's a chord which is basically just
> a dyad, containing only the root and 5th of the chord
> and their octaves. A meantone version of that with
> distortion would surely sound horrid.

You're so sure -- based on what? I've heard some Neil Haverstick &
John Starrett music that surely proves you wrong.

> Any guitarists out there care to make some demo mp3's
> so that we can all hear it? A 31-edo electric guitar
> would be close enough to give the general idea.

If Carl reminds me about the recording device I'm supposed to get,
I'll buy it and try to make an .mp3 for you as soon as I can.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> If I had some midi files I might retune them; midi has overdriven
> guitar, distorted guitar, and something called guitar harmonics.
> Pieces using the overdriven and distorted midi instruments might work
> for experiments. What would be some good pieces to experiment on?

Whatever you do, you'll have to channel the output through some
distortion -- MIDI distorted guitar will normally not produce the
intermodulation distortion you get when you combine two or more notes
through a distortion unit, but will instead sound like as many
independent distorted guitars as the number of notes you're playing. A
*very* different sound.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@s...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Gene Ward Smith wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@s...> wrote:
> >
> >>> One wonders what Van Halen would think of a 1/4-comma meantone
guitar.
> >>> It sounds like it could be quite the thing for heavy metal.
> >>
> >> In my experience, some guitarists are offended even by the
tempering
> > done
> >> by 12edo when they use heavy distortion. They don't like tuning
their
> >> guitars to match a synthesizer's perfect 12edo. Distortion makes
> > beating
> >> much more obvious.
> >
> > The fifths are flatter, but over all the beating should be much
less
> > and hence less of a problem. As for the synthesizers, if all it
can do
> > is 12edo then clearly you need a better synthesizer.
>
> That would be true if it wasn't for the fact that fifths are much
more
> important for this music style than thirds, which are avoided for
their
> bad sound when distorted. If you make the thirds good and the
fifths bad
> instead you'll end up with another music style. That might be
interesting
> in itself.

On my meantone guitar, entire triads sound great with distortion,
especially if you move from one to another at a reasonable pace. None
of the errors here are anywhere near as bad as the errors of the
thirds in 12-equal.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@s...> wrote:

> For a 4 cent narrow fifth of 440:658.5, you will hear a difference
tone of
> 218.5 Hz.

As well as a whole array of other combinational tones.

> And of course the timbre beats at a rate of 1.5 Hz or some multiple
of it.
> That's not steady enough by hard rock standards.

This is silly. There's plenty of hard rock where you can hear the
power chords beating faster than this, or where the power chords are
strummed (either repeated or changed) much faster than this so
there's no way to hear the beating. Neil Haverstick has made some
great hard rock using his 19-equal guitar, where the fifths are 7
cents flat!

> You really want close-to-just ratios when working with distortion,

You mean *you* do.

> since
> deviations are much more obvious than with non-distorted sound.

This is true, and let Jon Catler to his particular path, but Neil's
path is just as valid, for example.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:

> Neat! Also explains *why* the power chord is favoured
> by distortion players over the major chord.
>
> Of course, there are many other tunings he could have
> used that have no thirds, only fourths; but most of those
> I've tried seem to have harder fingering for the usual
> chords. Eg dropping the first four strings by a semitone.

I played this way for 3 years. Anyway, it doesn't help for his goal
of acheiving pure major triads (with one finger in his scheme).

> But try dropping the first, second and sixths strings by a
> tone to give an open G major tuning
> D3 G3 D4 G4 B5 D5
> much like the seven-string "Russian" guitar tuning
> D3 G3 B4 D4 G4 B5 D5
> but a little more open in the bass. That extra B4 on the
> "Russian" guitar impies a lower fundamental tone, I think.
>
> That tuning makes playing many major chords just a
> matter of applying a barré across all strings.

Indeed. Many *acoustic* as well as slide guitar players tune their
open strings fairly close to a JI chord. As long as they stick to one-
finger chords, everything will sound pretty much in tune . . .

P.S. Why is there an accent on the *silent* e in "barré"? Clearly
this isn't French . . . (?)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:

> There's *no way* I can make my MIDI keyboard,
> nice distortion guitar sound tho it has, get the
> right "intermodulation distortion" sound, as you
> call it, even with the fifths tuned pure. There's
> too much missing.
>
> Slightly OT - can anyone explain exactly what a
> distortion pedal does to the guitar timbre? In
> tuning terms, of course!

In tuning terms? I don't know what that means. Distortion is simply
an extremely nonlinear response -- the simplest kind, "clipping", is
pretty much a response function that flattens out fairly low positive
and negative values. If you followed my most recent reply to you
about difference tones, you'll understand that a nonlinear response
implies that all sorts of high-order combinational tones will be
produced. In the case of a harmonic interval or simple otonal chord,
all these combinational tones will belong to the same harmonic series
as the original interval or chord, so the sound is very satisfying,
rich, and stable. Otherwise, the sound approaches noise.

> And what is "intermodulation" really? Suggests
> that each sounding string is affecting each of
> the others - but if so, how, exactly?

Similarly to the way I related beating to amplitude modulation in my
explanation, the product of putting simultaneous sounds into a single
distortion device is related to frequency modulation. Shall I try to
work out a mathematical exposition of that for you?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:
>
> > There's *no way* I can make my MIDI keyboard,
> > nice distortion guitar sound tho it has, get the
> > right "intermodulation distortion" sound, as you
> > call it, even with the fifths tuned pure. There's
> > too much missing.
>
> The fault is not in the keyboard, surely. How successful have the
> attempts been to duplicate the effect, and why have they not gotten
>it?

All you have to do is turn off any reverb (& other effects) on your
keyboard, and play it through an overdriven guitar amp! Most keyboards
simply don't bother to give you the facility to emulate anything like
the resulting effect, probably because they weren't designed by
guitarists. Others do but have poor distortion types.

> After all, it's an electronic effect to start with.

The Korg Triton Extreme has a vacuum tube built into it, to try to
approach the desirable distortion sound of old guitar amps.

Thanks for the clarifications. I am not a guitar player myself, I
have only observed them.

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006, wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@s...> wrote:
>
>> For a 4 cent narrow fifth of 440:658.5, you will hear a difference
> tone of
>> 218.5 Hz.
>
> As well as a whole array of other combinational tones.
>
>> And of course the timbre beats at a rate of 1.5 Hz or some multiple
> of it.
>> That's not steady enough by hard rock standards.
>
> This is silly. There's plenty of hard rock where you can hear the
> power chords beating faster than this, or where the power chords are
> strummed (either repeated or changed) much faster than this so
> there's no way to hear the beating. Neil Haverstick has made some
> great hard rock using his 19-equal guitar, where the fifths are 7
> cents flat!
>
Ã>> You really want close-to-just ratios when working with distortion,
>
> You mean *you* do.
>
>> since
>> deviations are much more obvious than with non-distorted sound.
>
> This is true, and let Jon Catler to his particular path, but Neil's
> path is just as valid, for example.
>

> > Any guitarists out there care to make some demo mp3's
> > so that we can all hear it? A 31-edo electric guitar
> > would be close enough to give the general idea.
>
> If Carl reminds me about the recording device I'm supposed to get,
> I'll buy it and try to make an .mp3 for you as soon as I can.

I'm currently using the M-Audio MicroTrack

http://www.lumma.org/microwave/#2006.01.04.3

But Roland just announced the R-09, which warrants a look

http://createdigitalmusic.com/index2.php?
option=content&task=view&id=1130&pop=1&page=0

-Carl

> On my meantone guitar, entire triads sound great with distortion,

A guitar sounding good with distortion... I'm not sure I can
agree. :)

-Carl

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> P.S. Why is there an accent on the *silent* e in "barr�"? Clearly > this isn't French . . . (?)

It is, and it's not silent. It doesn' mean "bar", but "barred".

klaus

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:

> > The narrow 5ths of meantone would never work with the
> > distortion cranked up.
>
> Never work? Do you own a meantone guitar? Have you
> played it with distortion? From my experience, I'd
> guess you haven't.

I have a 31-edo guitar made by Ivor Darreg, but it's
acoustic. I guess i made these statements with a finality
that is innappropriate, because no, i actually don't
have *any* electric guitars at all, not even in 12.

> > The "power chord" mentioned in
> > the Wikipedia article on Van Halen is described by never
> > really explained: it's a chord which is basically just
> > a dyad, containing only the root and 5th of the chord
> > and their octaves. A meantone version of that with
> > distortion would surely sound horrid.
>
> You're so sure -- based on what? I've heard some Neil Haverstick &
> John Starrett music that surely proves you wrong.

I never heard anything they did which used the
"power chord" i describe. Which tracks?

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Hi klaus (and Paul),

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@o...> wrote:
>
> wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
>
> > P.S. Why is there an accent on the *silent* e in "barré"? Clearly
> > this isn't French . . . (?)
>
> It is, and it's not silent. It doesn' mean "bar", but "barred".

Ah, thanks for that ... so then it's us ignorant Americans
who call pronounce it "bar kord" -- every heavy-metal guitarist
i've ever known (and i've known *several*) prounounces it
that way.

I'm glad Paul asked, because i've always wonder that myself.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

monz wrote:

> Hi klaus (and Paul),
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@o...> wrote:
> >>wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
>>
>>
>>>P.S. Why is there an accent on the *silent* e in "barr�"? Clearly >>>this isn't French . . . (?)
>>
>>It is, and it's not silent. It doesn' mean "bar", but "barred".
> > > > > Ah, thanks for that ... so then it's us ignorant Americans
> who call pronounce it "bar kord" -- every heavy-metal guitarist
> i've ever known (and i've known *several*) prounounces it > that way.

remember when it's happened: i'm the one who introduced the "beret chord" into american music.

klaus

My own research supports that fifths as small as the 19EDO fifth are
at least fairly usable. And by research, I mean I tuned the lowest
strings of my guitar to 19EDO D and A by ear against scala and rocked
out for a while. In percussive rhythm playing it seems to have less
punch, but you can't hear beating or anything. Sustained chords beat
audibly. It's a difference worth squabbling over, but it's not to say
that it plain doesn't work. I tried 31EDO and it was a reasonable
improvement. It didn't sound interestingly out of tune in a grungy
way like pulling the fifth notibly sharp.

Tuning G and B to a 19EDO major third is still usable but beats more
than I'd like as diad. Maybe with more modest distortion it would
contribute to more usable triads. The 31EDO third is pretty kicking,
and is more or less usable with distortion to my ears. It's only just
perceivbly non-just to me.

On 1/30/06, wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Magnus Jonsson <magnus@s...> wrote:
>
> > For a 4 cent narrow fifth of 440:658.5, you will hear a difference
> tone of
> > 218.5 Hz.
>
> As well as a whole array of other combinational tones.
>
> > And of course the timbre beats at a rate of 1.5 Hz or some multiple
> of it.
> > That's not steady enough by hard rock standards.
>
> This is silly. There's plenty of hard rock where you can hear the
> power chords beating faster than this, or where the power chords are
> strummed (either repeated or changed) much faster than this so
> there's no way to hear the beating. Neil Haverstick has made some
> great hard rock using his 19-equal guitar, where the fifths are 7
> cents flat!
>
> > You really want close-to-just ratios when working with distortion,
>
> You mean *you* do.
>
> > since
> > deviations are much more obvious than with non-distorted sound.
>
> This is true, and let Jon Catler to his particular path, but Neil's
> path is just as valid, for example.
>
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > On my meantone guitar, entire triads sound great with distortion,
>
> A guitar sounding good with distortion... I'm not sure I can
> agree. :)
>
> -Carl

I know some of the music you're fond of, so I know you're joking . . .

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>
> > > The narrow 5ths of meantone would never work with the
> > > distortion cranked up.
> >
> > Never work? Do you own a meantone guitar? Have you
> > played it with distortion? From my experience, I'd
> > guess you haven't.
>
>
> I have a 31-edo guitar made by Ivor Darreg, but it's
> acoustic. I guess i made these statements with a finality
> that is innappropriate, because no, i actually don't
> have *any* electric guitars at all, not even in 12.
>
>
> > > The "power chord" mentioned in
> > > the Wikipedia article on Van Halen is described by never
> > > really explained: it's a chord which is basically just
> > > a dyad, containing only the root and 5th of the chord
> > > and their octaves. A meantone version of that with
> > > distortion would surely sound horrid.
> >
> > You're so sure -- based on what? I've heard some Neil Haverstick
&
> > John Starrett music that surely proves you wrong.
>
>
> I never heard anything they did which used the
> "power chord" i describe. Which tracks?

Specifically, it was a track that appeared on mp3.com, in the "tuning
punks" days -- a very metal-oriented number that I thought showed
incredible tightness. But they've used power chords in a lot of their
music, especially on _The Gate_.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>
> Hi klaus (and Paul),
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@o...> wrote:
> >
> > wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
> >
> > > P.S. Why is there an accent on the *silent* e in "barré"?
Clearly
> > > this isn't French . . . (?)
> >
> > It is, and it's not silent. It doesn' mean "bar", but "barred".
>
>
>
> Ah, thanks for that ... so then it's us ignorant Americans
> who call pronounce it "bar kord" -- every heavy-metal guitarist
> i've ever known (and i've known *several*) prounounces it
> that way.

Heavy-metal guitarists aside (since they use more power chords than
barre chords), the U.S. music community definitely uses the
spelling "barre" and the pronunciation "bar" in every instance I've
seen/heard. I therefore assumed "barre" was etymologically somewhat
distinct from "barré" . . .

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>> Hi klaus (and Paul),
>>
>>
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@o...> wrote:
>>> wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
>>>
>>>> P.S. Why is there an accent on the *silent* e in "barré"?
> Clearly
>>>> this isn't French . . . (?)
>>> It is, and it's not silent. It doesn' mean "bar", but "barred".
>>
>>
>> Ah, thanks for that ... so then it's us ignorant Americans
>> who call pronounce it "bar kord" -- every heavy-metal guitarist
>> i've ever known (and i've known *several*) prounounces it
>> that way.
>
> Heavy-metal guitarists aside (since they use more power chords than
> barre chords), the U.S. music community definitely uses the
> spelling "barre" and the pronunciation "bar" in every instance I've
> seen/heard. I therefore assumed "barre" was etymologically somewhat
> distinct from "barré" . . .

Lo and behold, my trusted New Shorter Oxford has them both. As far as I
can see, only "barré" should go with "chord". "Barre" is simply French
for "bar" and refers either to the bar in front of the mirror were you
do your ballet exercises, or the finger used for barring a barré chord.

klaus