FW: [tuning] RE: about 53-edo and intervallic structure of iranian music and ......

Hi yahya

>>Tried repeatedly to upload it yesterday, but
it kept failing. So today I zipped it up (much
smaller) and had no trouble with the upload.

I saw it.

>>Is this "Ormavi" the same person that Ozan calls "Urmevi"?

yes

>Doesn't LOOK any simpler! :-) Did he use the
>pure Pythagorean (3-limit) ratios:
>65536/59049 and 8192/6561 or their 5-limit approximations 10/9 and 5/4 ?

in every iranian and translated works about ormavi you see these pythagorean ratios instead of 10/9 and 5/4.

> : Ormavi changed 355 and 853 cent to 384 and 882 cent.

>Why?

In time of Ormavi, it was belived in simplfication of near intervals for example in an article by julien bernard jalaladin weiss we see that ormavi has told:the players uses 9/8 instead of 8/7 or 10/9.

May be he deleted 27/22 for usage of 8192/6561 as a tradition of the time. And another thing :

In another article by nida abou morad , it is mentioned that ormavi in his book , risalat-ol-sharafiyeh , has written: the players didn't accept my model to delete zalazl intervals and continue to use farabi model and zalal intervals.

He wanted to change the sasanid model of intervals in khorasan region. this effort never used in tradition of arabs and iranians up to now , but after 18 century ، turkey accepted it for being different from iran and arab music and be near to western music.

>Do the first three numbers 266, 119, 111 refer to
>(just guessing) ADOs? or to EDOs? or what?

in cents.(266 cent,…..)

> He shows divisions of pentachord also : 14/13: 8/7 : 13/12 : 14/13 :
> 117/112

>The whole being 13-limit. When did this happen?

I don’t know. What do u mean?
> 3- works of maestro majid kyanee on tar-fretting of maestro
> agha-mirza-hossein gholi shows that the systems of interval is near to
> zalzal system without fret of 256/243
>
> The sizes of 12/11 and 27/22 is changeable.

>For example, the 12/11 might be replaced by 13/12;
>is that right? Is there a complete list of the
>alternate sizes? And are we still talking of Ormavi,
>or of classical Iranian practice since his time?

in iranian tradition of practice , you cant say 13/12 or 12/11 , may be near or far to these 2 or exactly these 2.the thing which is important is showing the musical sense , not only in past but now.

>When did Partovi do this?
I have an article by him without exact timing but between 1999-2003

> 5- maestro vaziri proposed 24-edo for iranian music

>Again, when was this?
Professor Hormoz Farhat, composer and musicologist, writes, "In the course of the twentieth century, three separate theories on intervals and scales of Persian music have been proposed. The first of these, put forward in the 1920s by Vaziri, identifies a 24-quarter-tone scale as the basis for Persian music...

http://www.iran-heritage.org/interestgroups/AliNaghi.htm <http://www.iran-heritage.org/interestgroups/AliNaghi.htm>

> 7- I belive that we can play iranian music in every systems which shows
> fifth and forth pure or near pure. ...

>That is a very interesting statement! It suggests
>that you might:

>a) recognise a piece in a Western major key in a
>good meantone tuning as being "Iranian music".
>b) and also recognise its transposition to the
>relative minor key as being essentially the same
>piece of "Iranian music".
>Would this be so?
no , I told , for example I can play iranian music in 53-edo or 144-edo or……or just intonation ar ados or edls ….

By the way , I don't know how to calculate neutral thirds in for example 1/6-comma meantone or better to ask how to generate system with for example 53-tone in 1/4-comma meantone?

>If harmony is not important, does traditional
>Iranian music nevertheless modulate between
>different modes or keys?
yes , but very limmited and mainly as modal movement, some times I think that modal spaces of and in dastgahs are brother with modes by changing tonic in major and minor scales. for example fifth upper : shur in c changes to shur in g. it is interesting that intervallic structure of 2 tetrachords in scale are different so we have 2 different intervallic structure for tetrachords in dastgah.

>One final question: in your mind, what is the
>biggest difference between your music and
>traditional music?
it is based on my sense (80%)and history(20%) and that is based on others(20%) and history(80%) <-;

Shaahin Mohaajeri

Tombak Player & Researcher , Composer

www.geocities.com/acousticsoftombak

My tombak musics : www.rhythmweb.com/gdg

My articles in ''Harmonytalk'':

www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html <http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000296.html>

www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html <http://www.harmonytalk.com/archives/000288.html>

My article in DrumDojo:

www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm <http://www.drumdojo.com/world/persia/tonbak_acoustics.htm>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mohajeri Shahin" <shahinm@k...> wrote:

> > 7- I belive that we can play iranian music in every systems which
shows
> > fifth and forth pure or near pure. ...
>
> >That is a very interesting statement! It suggests
> >that you might:
>
> >a) recognise a piece in a Western major key in a
> >good meantone tuning as being "Iranian music".
> >b) and also recognise its transposition to the
> >relative minor key as being essentially the same
> >piece of "Iranian music".
> >Would this be so?
> no , I told , for example I can play iranian music in 53-edo or 144-
edo or……or just intonation ar ados or edls ….
>
> By the way , I don't know how to calculate neutral thirds in for
example 1/6-comma meantone or better to ask how to generate system
with for example 53-tone in 1/4-comma meantone?

Neither of these makes much sense. So I think you may want to revise
your statement "I belive that we can play iranian music in every
systems which shows fifth and forth pure or near pure. ..."