Making a Nay

Hi Everyone,

I was trying for a while to make a Nay ( an arabic wind instument
like a bamboo flute ) to play some musical scales. I have searched the
web a lot and I've found some pages which make the calculations of
hole places and diameters automatically, but what I need is a trusted
source with all the necessary Physical laws.

If anybody knows a good source on the web, please tell me

Rami Vitale

Rami,

First allow me to correct a mistake, the Nay or Ney is not just an Arabic
wind instrument, it's a wind instrument of Maqam Music, which is a
trans-national genre encompassing all boundaries from North Africa to
Balkans and Transaxonia, including Turkey, Persia and Arab countries like
Egypt, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, etc...

Secondly, the Physical laws are not very much delineated I'm afraid. There
is much contraversy regarding how the holes should be opened. We Turks have
formulated the matter as follows:

Divide the lenght of the Ney into 26 equal portions and assign

the hole for Dugah at 26/4
Kurdi at 26/5
Segah at 26/6
Chargah at 26/8
Hicaz-Saba at 26/9
Neva at 26/10
and Acem in the back at 26/13

The fact that the hole in the middle does not give the octave of perde Rast
(whose relative frequency is always 1/1 regardless of the Ahenk=Diapason) is
due to the double open-ended nature of Ney, which causes the wavelenght to
increase as much as 0.613 times the lenght of the instrument, or so they
say.

In any case, we have these relative frequencies by default, if it the matter
was equal divisions on a string:

Rast 1 (0 cents)
Dugah 26/22 = 1.181818182 = 289.21 cents
Kurdi 26/21 = 1.238095238 = 369.75 cents
Segah 26/20 = 1.3 = 454.214 cents
Chargah 26/18 = 1.444444444 = 636.618 cents
Hicaz 26/17 = 1.529411765 = 735.572 cents
Neva 26/16 = 1.625 = 840.528 cents
Acem 26/13 = 2 = 1200 cents

However, this table is not correct with the Ney, because the actual values
are expected to become:

Rast 1
Dugah 9/8
Kurdi 13/11 to 6/5 (by bending and embouchure)
Segah 27/22 to 5/4 (by bending and embouchure)
Chargah 4/3
Hijaz 10/7 to 7/5 (by bending and embouchure)
Neva 3/2
Acem 16/9

Maybe some gentle fellow, like Paul Erlich, will come and explain what's
going on with these numbers.

Cordially,
Ozan Yarman

----- Original Message -----
From: "ramivitale" <ramivitale@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 29 Aral�k 2005 Per�embe 23:08
Subject: [tuning] Making a Nay

> Hi Everyone,
>
> I was trying for a while to make a Nay ( an arabic wind instument
> like a bamboo flute ) to play some musical scales. I have searched the
> web a lot and I've found some pages which make the calculations of
> hole places and diameters automatically, but what I need is a trusted
> source with all the necessary Physical laws.
>
> If anybody knows a good source on the web, please tell me
>
> Rami Vitale
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@o...> wrote:
>
> Rami,
>
> First allow me to correct a mistake, the Nay or Ney is not just an
Arabic
> wind instrument, it's a wind instrument of Maqam Music, which is a
> trans-national genre encompassing all boundaries from North Africa to
> Balkans and Transaxonia, including Turkey, Persia and Arab countries
like
> Egypt, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, etc...
>
Well, it is not a mistake, I know that, and I know also that the
system which is used now in Arabic countries was given by Ali
Al-Darwish who has studied music with turkish teachers.

Thank for information. Anyway I am looking for more, I have designed
a Byzantine Ney, It sounds well but I need my work to be more scientific.

I was rather under the impression that the system Arabs use today is
derived from a revival, by Mikhail Mushaqa of the early 19th century, of
Farabian quarter-tones, the contraversial muslim philosopher of the 10th
century who, in turn, translated them from Greek sources from
Antiquity dealing with the divisions of the tetrachord.

In anycase, I do not understand what else you need for the Ney - other than
the ratios I have already given - to make it look more scientific. If it's a
question of timbre, that concerns acoustics more than tuning. As far as I
gather, we lot down here argue the merits of micro-tones and beats only.

Ozan

----- Original Message -----
From: "ramivitale" <ramivitale@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 31 Aral�k 2005 Cumartesi 0:55
Subject: [tuning] Re: Making a Nay

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@o...> wrote:
> >
> > Rami,
> >
> > First allow me to correct a mistake, the Nay or Ney is not just an
> Arabic
> > wind instrument, it's a wind instrument of Maqam Music, which is a
> > trans-national genre encompassing all boundaries from North Africa to
> > Balkans and Transaxonia, including Turkey, Persia and Arab countries
> like
> > Egypt, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, etc...
> >
> Well, it is not a mistake, I know that, and I know also that the
> system which is used now in Arabic countries was given by Ali
> Al-Darwish who has studied music with turkish teachers.
>
> Thank for information. Anyway I am looking for more, I have designed
> a Byzantine Ney, It sounds well but I need my work to be more scientific.
>
>
>

There are two things that make the calculations for wind instruments
far more difficult that for strings. The first is the end correction -
- the instruments acts as if it's longer than it actually is. The
second is the effect of multiple open holes -- fiendishly difficult
to calculate. The most practical solution seems to be to get the
pitches you want on a string or electronically and then, through much
trial and error, get the wind instrument to match those pitches.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@o...> wrote:
>
> Rami,
>
> First allow me to correct a mistake, the Nay or Ney is not just an
Arabic
> wind instrument, it's a wind instrument of Maqam Music, which is a
> trans-national genre encompassing all boundaries from North Africa
to
> Balkans and Transaxonia, including Turkey, Persia and Arab
countries like
> Egypt, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, etc...
>
> Secondly, the Physical laws are not very much delineated I'm
afraid. There
> is much contraversy regarding how the holes should be opened. We
Turks have
> formulated the matter as follows:
>
> Divide the lenght of the Ney into 26 equal portions and assign
>
> the hole for Dugah at 26/4
> Kurdi at 26/5
> Segah at 26/6
> Chargah at 26/8
> Hicaz-Saba at 26/9
> Neva at 26/10
> and Acem in the back at 26/13
>
> The fact that the hole in the middle does not give the octave of
perde Rast
> (whose relative frequency is always 1/1 regardless of the
Ahenk=Diapason) is
> due to the double open-ended nature of Ney, which causes the
wavelenght to
> increase as much as 0.613 times the lenght of the instrument, or so
they
> say.
>
> In any case, we have these relative frequencies by default, if it
the matter
> was equal divisions on a string:
>
> Rast 1 (0 cents)
> Dugah 26/22 = 1.181818182 = 289.21 cents
> Kurdi 26/21 = 1.238095238 = 369.75 cents
> Segah 26/20 = 1.3 = 454.214 cents
> Chargah 26/18 = 1.444444444 = 636.618 cents
> Hicaz 26/17 = 1.529411765 = 735.572 cents
> Neva 26/16 = 1.625 = 840.528 cents
> Acem 26/13 = 2 = 1200 cents
>
> However, this table is not correct with the Ney, because the actual
values
> are expected to become:
>
> Rast 1
> Dugah 9/8
> Kurdi 13/11 to 6/5 (by bending and embouchure)
> Segah 27/22 to 5/4 (by bending and embouchure)
> Chargah 4/3
> Hijaz 10/7 to 7/5 (by bending and embouchure)
> Neva 3/2
> Acem 16/9
>
> Maybe some gentle fellow, like Paul Erlich, will come and explain
what's
> going on with these numbers.
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan Yarman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ramivitale" <ramivitale@y...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 29 Aralýk 2005 Perþembe 23:08
> Subject: [tuning] Making a Nay
>
>
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> > I was trying for a while to make a Nay ( an arabic wind instument
> > like a bamboo flute ) to play some musical scales. I have
searched the
> > web a lot and I've found some pages which make the calculations of
> > hole places and diameters automatically, but what I need is a
trusted
> > source with all the necessary Physical laws.
> >
> > If anybody knows a good source on the web, please tell me
> >
> > Rami Vitale
> >
> >
>

Rats! I imagined that you amongst all others could come up and tell me there
was a more clear cut solution than trial and error. If this is true, the
Nay-makers are right... there can be no approximation other than an abstract
approach for this instrument.

What do you think of 26-EDL (equal divisions of lenght) for the Nay? The
current lore allows for milimetric deviations and widening of the holes to
gain the correct pitches.

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 03 Ocak 2006 Sal� 22:15
Subject: [tuning] Re: Making a Nay

There are two things that make the calculations for wind instruments
far more difficult that for strings. The first is the end correction -
- the instruments acts as if it's longer than it actually is. The
second is the effect of multiple open holes -- fiendishly difficult
to calculate. The most practical solution seems to be to get the
pitches you want on a string or electronically and then, through much
trial and error, get the wind instrument to match those pitches.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@o...> wrote:
>
> Rami,
>
> First allow me to correct a mistake, the Nay or Ney is not just an
Arabic
> wind instrument, it's a wind instrument of Maqam Music, which is a
> trans-national genre encompassing all boundaries from North Africa
to
> Balkans and Transaxonia, including Turkey, Persia and Arab
countries like
> Egypt, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, etc...
>
> Secondly, the Physical laws are not very much delineated I'm
afraid. There
> is much contraversy regarding how the holes should be opened. We
Turks have
> formulated the matter as follows:
>
> Divide the lenght of the Ney into 26 equal portions and assign
>
> the hole for Dugah at 26/4
> Kurdi at 26/5
> Segah at 26/6
> Chargah at 26/8
> Hicaz-Saba at 26/9
> Neva at 26/10
> and Acem in the back at 26/13
>
> The fact that the hole in the middle does not give the octave of
perde Rast
> (whose relative frequency is always 1/1 regardless of the
Ahenk=Diapason) is
> due to the double open-ended nature of Ney, which causes the
wavelenght to
> increase as much as 0.613 times the lenght of the instrument, or so
they
> say.
>
> In any case, we have these relative frequencies by default, if it
the matter
> was equal divisions on a string:
>
> Rast 1 (0 cents)
> Dugah 26/22 = 1.181818182 = 289.21 cents
> Kurdi 26/21 = 1.238095238 = 369.75 cents
> Segah 26/20 = 1.3 = 454.214 cents
> Chargah 26/18 = 1.444444444 = 636.618 cents
> Hicaz 26/17 = 1.529411765 = 735.572 cents
> Neva 26/16 = 1.625 = 840.528 cents
> Acem 26/13 = 2 = 1200 cents
>
> However, this table is not correct with the Ney, because the actual
values
> are expected to become:
>
> Rast 1
> Dugah 9/8
> Kurdi 13/11 to 6/5 (by bending and embouchure)
> Segah 27/22 to 5/4 (by bending and embouchure)
> Chargah 4/3
> Hijaz 10/7 to 7/5 (by bending and embouchure)
> Neva 3/2
> Acem 16/9
>
> Maybe some gentle fellow, like Paul Erlich, will come and explain
what's
> going on with these numbers.
>
> Cordially,
> Ozan Yarman
>

If it's a starting point from which one can ultimately coax the holes
to give the pitches you want, then I'm all for it. A lot of trial and
error will still be involved, though . . .

The name Jim French always comes up here in regard to wind
instruments -- he makes fine microtonal ones, it's said, and I'm sure
he could give you a lot more good advice on this if you managed to
contact him . . .

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@o...> wrote:
>
> Rats! I imagined that you amongst all others could come up and tell
me there
> was a more clear cut solution than trial and error. If this is
true, the
> Nay-makers are right... there can be no approximation other than an
abstract
> approach for this instrument.
>
> What do you think of 26-EDL (equal divisions of lenght) for the
Nay? The
> current lore allows for milimetric deviations and widening of the
holes to
> gain the correct pitches.
>
> Oz.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 03 Ocak 2006 Salý 22:15
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Making a Nay
>
>
> There are two things that make the calculations for wind instruments
> far more difficult that for strings. The first is the end
correction -
> - the instruments acts as if it's longer than it actually is. The
> second is the effect of multiple open holes -- fiendishly difficult
> to calculate. The most practical solution seems to be to get the
> pitches you want on a string or electronically and then, through
much
> trial and error, get the wind instrument to match those pitches.
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@o...>
wrote:
> >
> > Rami,
> >
> > First allow me to correct a mistake, the Nay or Ney is not just an
> Arabic
> > wind instrument, it's a wind instrument of Maqam Music, which is a
> > trans-national genre encompassing all boundaries from North Africa
> to
> > Balkans and Transaxonia, including Turkey, Persia and Arab
> countries like
> > Egypt, Morocco, Syria, Iraq, etc...
> >
> > Secondly, the Physical laws are not very much delineated I'm
> afraid. There
> > is much contraversy regarding how the holes should be opened. We
> Turks have
> > formulated the matter as follows:
> >
> > Divide the lenght of the Ney into 26 equal portions and assign
> >
> > the hole for Dugah at 26/4
> > Kurdi at 26/5
> > Segah at 26/6
> > Chargah at 26/8
> > Hicaz-Saba at 26/9
> > Neva at 26/10
> > and Acem in the back at 26/13
> >
> > The fact that the hole in the middle does not give the octave of
> perde Rast
> > (whose relative frequency is always 1/1 regardless of the
> Ahenk=Diapason) is
> > due to the double open-ended nature of Ney, which causes the
> wavelenght to
> > increase as much as 0.613 times the lenght of the instrument, or
so
> they
> > say.
> >
> > In any case, we have these relative frequencies by default, if it
> the matter
> > was equal divisions on a string:
> >
> > Rast 1 (0 cents)
> > Dugah 26/22 = 1.181818182 = 289.21 cents
> > Kurdi 26/21 = 1.238095238 = 369.75 cents
> > Segah 26/20 = 1.3 = 454.214 cents
> > Chargah 26/18 = 1.444444444 = 636.618 cents
> > Hicaz 26/17 = 1.529411765 = 735.572 cents
> > Neva 26/16 = 1.625 = 840.528 cents
> > Acem 26/13 = 2 = 1200 cents
> >
> > However, this table is not correct with the Ney, because the
actual
> values
> > are expected to become:
> >
> > Rast 1
> > Dugah 9/8
> > Kurdi 13/11 to 6/5 (by bending and embouchure)
> > Segah 27/22 to 5/4 (by bending and embouchure)
> > Chargah 4/3
> > Hijaz 10/7 to 7/5 (by bending and embouchure)
> > Neva 3/2
> > Acem 16/9
> >
> > Maybe some gentle fellow, like Paul Erlich, will come and explain
> what's
> > going on with these numbers.
> >
> > Cordially,
> > Ozan Yarman
> >
>

And what would be his address dare I ask?

----- Original Message -----
From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 03 Ocak 2006 Sal� 23:56
Subject: [tuning] Re: Making a Nay

If it's a starting point from which one can ultimately coax the holes
to give the pitches you want, then I'm all for it. A lot of trial and
error will still be involved, though . . .

The name Jim French always comes up here in regard to wind
instruments -- he makes fine microtonal ones, it's said, and I'm sure
he could give you a lot more good advice on this if you managed to
contact him . . .

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> There are two things that make the calculations for wind instruments
> far more difficult that for strings. The first is the end correction -
> - the instruments acts as if it's longer than it actually is. The
> second is the effect of multiple open holes -- fiendishly difficult
> to calculate. The most practical solution seems to be to get the
> pitches you want on a string or electronically and then, through much
> trial and error, get the wind instrument to match those pitches.

That's what I've discovered by some experiments. I've used the
distance between the the hole and the end, and the relative internal
surface of the ney with and without opened holes. Then after that I've
discovered that I must cut few cenemeters from the end of the
instrument ( at mouth side ).
Results were accurate.
But, I'm not sure if that is all what I need, especially that I may
give an academic paper with this results and I want to know if there
are better scientific methods to do this.

This may help:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/pipes.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "ramivitale" <ramivitale@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 04 Ocak 2006 �ar�amba 16:13
Subject: [tuning] Re: Making a Nay

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> >
> > There are two things that make the calculations for wind instruments
> > far more difficult that for strings. The first is the end correction -
> > - the instruments acts as if it's longer than it actually is. The
> > second is the effect of multiple open holes -- fiendishly difficult
> > to calculate. The most practical solution seems to be to get the
> > pitches you want on a string or electronically and then, through much
> > trial and error, get the wind instrument to match those pitches.
>
> That's what I've discovered by some experiments. I've used the
> distance between the the hole and the end, and the relative internal
> surface of the ney with and without opened holes. Then after that I've
> discovered that I must cut few cenemeters from the end of the
> instrument ( at mouth side ).
> Results were accurate.
> But, I'm not sure if that is all what I need, especially that I may
> give an academic paper with this results and I want to know if there
> are better scientific methods to do this.
>
>
>

A good source, but this page doesn't address the thorny issues of
hole placement or end corrections at all. For end corrections, see:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/musFAQ.html#end

and for a bit about how the holes come into play in both tuning and
timbre, see:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/reprints/crossfingering.pdf

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@o...> wrote:
>
> This may help:
>
> http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/pipes.html
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ramivitale" <ramivitale@y...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: 04 Ocak 2006 Çarþamba 16:13
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Making a Nay
>
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> > <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > There are two things that make the calculations for wind
instruments
> > > far more difficult that for strings. The first is the end
correction -
> > > - the instruments acts as if it's longer than it actually is.
The
> > > second is the effect of multiple open holes -- fiendishly
difficult
> > > to calculate. The most practical solution seems to be to get the
> > > pitches you want on a string or electronically and then,
through much
> > > trial and error, get the wind instrument to match those pitches.
> >
> > That's what I've discovered by some experiments. I've used the
> > distance between the the hole and the end, and the relative
internal
> > surface of the ney with and without opened holes. Then after that
I've
> > discovered that I must cut few cenemeters from the end of the
> > instrument ( at mouth side ).
> > Results were accurate.
> > But, I'm not sure if that is all what I need, especially that I
may
> > give an academic paper with this results and I want to know if
there
> > are better scientific methods to do this.
> >
> >
> >
>