Holdrian comma dispute (was: Arabian comma dispute)

Hi all,

Ozan asked:
> Who is this Holder fellow anyway?

I replied:
> I thought you knew ...

Gene replied:
> I'd like an answer.

And Ozan replied:
> Would that I knew how to.

So ... we're all clueless? LOL

All I've got to go on is Ozan's "William
Holder of the late 17th and early 18th
centuries". Does anyone on this list
actually KNOW why the Turks speak of
Holder's comma?

Perhaps this will become a NEW "Arabian
comma dispute"! I do hope not...

Regards,
Yahya
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@melbpc.org.au>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 17 Aral�k 2005 Cumartesi 18:02
Subject: [tuning] Holdrian comma dispute (was: Arabian comma dispute)

>
> Hi all,
>
> Ozan asked:
> > Who is this Holder fellow anyway?
>

Yep

> I replied:
> > I thought you knew ...
>

Yep

> Gene replied:
> > I'd like an answer.
>

Yep

> And Ozan replied:
> > Would that I knew how to.
>

Yep

> So ... we're all clueless? LOL
>

Nope.

> All I've got to go on is Ozan's "William
> Holder of the late 17th and early 18th
> centuries". Does anyone on this list
> actually KNOW why the Turks speak of
> Holder's comma?
>

I can hardly think of anyone else applying to this name. If he was the
initiator of 1200/53 cents, I wouldn't actually know about it, save for the
fact that we DO call it the Holdrian comma in Turkey among other things.

> Perhaps this will become a NEW "Arabian
> comma dispute"! I do hope not...
>

If I hear one more time the closest mention to a debate on this so-called
`Arabian comma`, I'm going to do something drastic, like start a debate on
all the Turkish, Persian, Bosnian, Caucasian and Transaxonian commas,
kleismas, schismas, or whatnot this side of the Rhine!

> Regards,
> Yahya
> --

Cordially,
Oz.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:

> Ozan asked:
> > Who is this Holder fellow anyway?

> All I've got to go on is Ozan's "William
> Holder of the late 17th and early 18th
> centuries". Does anyone on this list
> actually KNOW why the Turks speak of
> Holder's comma?

That would presumably be the William Holder who wrote "Treatise of the
Natural Grounds and Principles of Harmony", and finding that book
would probably help a great deal.

Hallo Gene,

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 you wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz"
> <yahya@m...> wrote:
>
> > Ozan asked:
> > > Who is this Holder fellow anyway?
>
> > All I've got to go on is Ozan's "William
> > Holder of the late 17th and early 18th
> centuries". Does anyone on this list
> > actually KNOW why the Turks speak of
> > Holder's comma?
>
> That would presumably be the William Holder who wrote "Treatise of the
> Natural Grounds and Principles of Harmony", and finding that book
> would probably help a great deal.

At least you knew the title! :-)

*** The Ritter Collection of Tufts University has a copy
of the 1701 (but not the 1694, first) edition. It also has,
it seems, one of the two editions of 1731, which added
instruction in the art of thorow-bass [sic] by another
author. Or so a search on Google reveals. I had hoped,
when Google directed me to the Tufts _Digital_ library,
to find the Holder text or facsimile online. However,
it turned up only a modern survey article or talk (2003),
which cover the period 1600-1800 and makes no mention
of any comma named by or for Holder.

Regards,
Yahya

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Hi Ozan,

On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 you wrote:
[BIG snip]
> If I hear one more time the closest mention to a debate on this so-called
> [expletive deleted], I'm going to do something drastic, like start a
debate on
> all the Turkish, Persian, Bosnian, Caucasian and Transaxonian commas,
> kleismas, schismas, or whatnot this side of the Rhine!

Now, that would have to be "Transsaxonian", wouldn't it? ;-)

Regards,
Yahya

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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:

> *** The Ritter Collection of Tufts University has a copy
> of the 1701 (but not the 1694, first) edition.

I've got a 1694 edition coming in from UN Reno, so I'll be able to
give the low down soon.

That's right. LOL

----- Original Message -----
From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@melbpc.org.au>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 18 Aral�k 2005 Pazar 14:21
Subject: [tuning] Re: Holdrian comma dispute (was: Arabian comma dispute)

>
> Hi Ozan,
>
> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 you wrote:
> [BIG snip]
> > If I hear one more time the closest mention to a debate on this
so-called
> > [expletive deleted], I'm going to do something drastic, like start a
> debate on
> > all the Turkish, Persian, Bosnian, Caucasian and Transaxonian commas,
> > kleismas, schismas, or whatnot this side of the Rhine!
>
> Now, that would have to be "Transsaxonian", wouldn't it? ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Yahya
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:
>
> > *** The Ritter Collection of Tufts University has a copy
> > of the 1701 (but not the 1694, first) edition.
>
> I've got a 1694 edition coming in from UN Reno, so I'll
> be able to give the low down soon.

Wow, i was just there a week ago! I could have looked it up
on the spot if this thread had started a little earlier.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Drat!

----- Original Message -----
From: "monz" <monz@tonalsoft.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 18 Aral�k 2005 Pazar 23:39
Subject: [tuning] Re: Holdrian comma dispute (was: Arabian comma dispute)

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:
> >
> > > *** The Ritter Collection of Tufts University has a copy
> > > of the 1701 (but not the 1694, first) edition.
> >
> > I've got a 1694 edition coming in from UN Reno, so I'll
> > be able to give the low down soon.
>
>
>
> Wow, i was just there a week ago! I could have looked it up
> on the spot if this thread had started a little earlier.
>
>
>
> -monz
> http://tonalsoft.com
> Tonescape microtonal music software
>
>