Re: [tuning] Digest Number 3802

> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 09:34:25 +1100
> From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@melbpc.org.au>
> Subject: Re: A JI realisation of Messiaen's octatonic (was: Schoenberg, serliasim, 12-edo
> > > Daniel,
> > Thank you for your comments on this topic.
> I have a couple of questions for you, if you
> would be so kind.
> > Regards,
> Yahya
> > > >>The octotonic collection is extremely attractive and appears, at first >>hearing, to be intimately identified with the temperaments in which it >>occurs. In particular, the interplay between harmonic and melodic use of >>the set in real, existing octatonic repertoire suggests that a high >>value is placed upon ambiguity and flexibility. But nevertheless, just >>intonations offer their own attractions.
> > > Don't they, though?
> > > >>Stravinsky, possibly from associations with folk repertoire, had a >>definite preference for melodic segments drawn from the octotonic >>collection rather than the complete set of eight tones. For example, one >>finds Mr. S. contrasting the use of four-tone segments: the diminished >>fourth (e.g. F# G A Bb) or the perfect fourth (G A Bb C). While many of >>Stravinsky's works depend upon such a large scale use of transpositions >>and modulations between diatonic and octatonic collection, a temperament >>may seem inevitable, trying out just interpretations of these smaller >>octatonic segments may well be suggestive at the local level. The same >>could be tried with Bartok's octatonic passages;
> > > If one's goals are to create music that modulates > widely, is it really possible to avoid modulation?
> > > >>James Tenney may have been the first to recommend tuning the complete >>octatonic up to a harmonic series segment implying octave multiples of >>the first seven primes: 1, 17, 19, 5, 11, 3, 13, 7. While the accuracy >>and acceptabilty of this as a substitute for the tempered octatonic is >>debatable, this strikes me as especially resonant with the Skryiabiniste >>tradition (microtonalists know Wyschnegradsky, but Lourie, Obuchov, and >>- yes - Messiaen ought also be included in this grouping), in which a >>fixed set of pitches is used to provide the source for all melodic and >>harmonic activity. A harmonic series segment, to my ears, provides a >>particularly stable -- if not static -- set of pitches from which to >>work in this way. ...
> > > Has Tenney created music in this "harmonic > octatonic"?
> I know that he has composed a lot of octatonic music, and his Chorales for orchestra are based upon harmonizing a diatonic melody with massively parallel octatonic chords, but I'm not certain whether he's ever tuned the octatonic up or not.

> > >>... Moreover, it seems to me that strategic use of >>inversions, for example, gradually allowing the more complex >>relationship to come into play (i.e. letting the 11, 13, 17, 19 emerge >>in the bass) can create some rather dynamic large scale structures that >>would be inaudible in a tempered rendition. ... > > > The idea appeals. Does "can create" mean "has > created"? Do you have any example of this kind > of large-scale work in the "harmonic octatonic"?
> Not, to my knowledge, in just intonation. But similar strategies can be heard in some of Skryabin's late music (albeit tempered), or in the work of Kraig Grady, who sometimes uses inversions to deploy his just arrays.

> > >>... (Let's agree: jokes these >>days about extraordinary renditions are off the table).
> > > Sorry, don't get it.
> see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Rendition