Re: A JI realisation of Messiaen's octatonic (was: Schoenberg, serliasim, 12-edo

Temperaments can consolidate several implied just intonations, and in doing so, allows for flexibility and ambiguity at the cost of explicitness. Often, that flexibility and ambiguity is both practical and desirable. Conversely, rendering a tempered score in a single just intonation leads to clarity and disambiguation, but possibly at the cost of lost ambiguity and flexibility.

The octotonic collection is extremely attractive and appears, at first hearing, to be intimately identified with the temperaments in which it occurs. In particular, the interplay between harmonic and melodic use of the set in real, existing octatonic repertoire suggests that a high value is placed upon ambiguity and flexibility. But nevertheless, just intonations offer their own attractions.

Stravinsky, possibly from associations with folk repertoire, had a definite preference for melodic segments drawn from the octotonic collection rather than the complete set of eight tones. For example, one finds Mr. S. contrasting the use of four-tone segments: the diminished fourth (e.g. F# G A Bb) or the perfect fourth (G A Bb C). While many of Stravinsky's works depend upon such a large scale use of transpositions and modulations between diatonic and octatonic collection, a temperament may seem inevitable, trying out just interpretations of these smaller octatonic segments may well be suggestive at the local level. The same could be tried with Bartok's octatonic passages;

James Tenney may have been the first to recommend tuning the complete octatonic up to a harmonic series segment implying octave multiples of the first seven primes: 1, 17, 19, 5, 11, 3, 13, 7. While the accuracy and acceptabilty of this as a substitute for the tempered octatonic is debatable, this strikes me as especially resonant with the Skryiabiniste tradition (microtonalists know Wyschnegradsky, but Lourie, Obuchov, and - yes - Messiaen ought also be included in this grouping), in which a fixed set of pitches is used to provide the source for all melodic and harmonic activity. A harmonic series segment, to my ears, provides a particularly stable -- if not static -- set of pitches from which to work in this way. Moreover, it seems to me that strategic use of inversions, for example, gradually allowing the more complex relationship to come into play (i.e. letting the 11, 13, 17, 19 emerge in the bass) can create some rather dynamic large scale structures that would be inaudible in a tempered rendition. (Let's agree: jokes these days about extraordinary renditions are off the table).

Daniel Wolf

Daniel,

Thank you for your comments on this topic.
I have a couple of questions for you, if you
would be so kind.

Regards,
Yahya

On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Daniel Wolf wrote:
>
> Temperaments can consolidate several implied just intonations, and in
> doing so, allows for flexibility and ambiguity at the cost of
> explicitness. Often, that flexibility and ambiguity is both practical
> and desirable. Conversely, rendering a tempered score in a single just
> intonation leads to clarity and disambiguation, but possibly at the cost
> of lost ambiguity and flexibility.

That said, if one's intentions are to create music
in the purest JI possible, then one is avoiding
temperament as far as practical. If the harmonies
can be heard without significant beating, then
perhaps the goal of a truly JI music has been
attained. I don't doubt that the loss of ambiguity
also entails a loss of power to modulate; however,
it is still possible to create listenable music without
any modulation whatever, whose chief harmonic
virtues lie in a celebration of pure consonance.

> The octotonic collection is extremely attractive and appears, at first
> hearing, to be intimately identified with the temperaments in which it
> occurs. In particular, the interplay between harmonic and melodic use of
> the set in real, existing octatonic repertoire suggests that a high
> value is placed upon ambiguity and flexibility. But nevertheless, just
> intonations offer their own attractions.

Don't they, though?

> Stravinsky, possibly from associations with folk repertoire, had a
> definite preference for melodic segments drawn from the octotonic
> collection rather than the complete set of eight tones. For example, one
> finds Mr. S. contrasting the use of four-tone segments: the diminished
> fourth (e.g. F# G A Bb) or the perfect fourth (G A Bb C). While many of
> Stravinsky's works depend upon such a large scale use of transpositions
> and modulations between diatonic and octatonic collection, a temperament
> may seem inevitable, trying out just interpretations of these smaller
> octatonic segments may well be suggestive at the local level. The same
> could be tried with Bartok's octatonic passages;

If one's goals are to create music that modulates
widely, is it really possible to avoid modulation?

> James Tenney may have been the first to recommend tuning the complete
> octatonic up to a harmonic series segment implying octave multiples of
> the first seven primes: 1, 17, 19, 5, 11, 3, 13, 7. While the accuracy
> and acceptabilty of this as a substitute for the tempered octatonic is
> debatable, this strikes me as especially resonant with the Skryiabiniste
> tradition (microtonalists know Wyschnegradsky, but Lourie, Obuchov, and
> - yes - Messiaen ought also be included in this grouping), in which a
> fixed set of pitches is used to provide the source for all melodic and
> harmonic activity. A harmonic series segment, to my ears, provides a
> particularly stable -- if not static -- set of pitches from which to
> work in this way. ...

Has Tenney created music in this "harmonic
octatonic"?

> ... Moreover, it seems to me that strategic use of
> inversions, for example, gradually allowing the more complex
> relationship to come into play (i.e. letting the 11, 13, 17, 19 emerge
> in the bass) can create some rather dynamic large scale structures that
> would be inaudible in a tempered rendition. ...

The idea appeals. Does "can create" mean "has
created"? Do you have any example of this kind
of large-scale work in the "harmonic octatonic"?

> ... (Let's agree: jokes these
> days about extraordinary renditions are off the table).

Sorry, don't get it.

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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:
>
>
> Daniel,
>
> Thank you for your comments on this topic.
> I have a couple of questions for you, if you
> would be so kind.
>
> Regards,
> Yahya
>
> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005, Daniel Wolf wrote:
> >
> > Temperaments can consolidate several implied just intonations,
and in
> > doing so, allows for flexibility and ambiguity at the cost of
> > explicitness. Often, that flexibility and ambiguity is both
practical
> > and desirable. Conversely, rendering a tempered score in a single
just
> > intonation leads to clarity and disambiguation, but possibly at
the cost
> > of lost ambiguity and flexibility.
>
> That said, if one's intentions are to create music
> in the purest JI possible, then one is avoiding
> temperament as far as practical.

If I might jump in . . . but how about adaptive JI instead of strict
JI?

> If the harmonies
> can be heard without significant beating, then
> perhaps the goal of a truly JI music has been
> attained.

But adaptive JI attains this goal as well. And yet it can preserve
the flexibility of temperament, since it amount to temperament in the
horizontal (melodic) direction only.

> > ... (Let's agree: jokes these
> > days about extraordinary renditions are off the table).
>
> Sorry, don't get it.

Me either.

Hi Daniel,

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005, Daniel Wolf wrote:
>
[snip]
> >>James Tenney may have been the first to recommend tuning the complete
> >>octatonic up to a harmonic series segment implying octave multiples of
> >>the first seven primes: 1, 17, 19, 5, 11, 3, 13, 7. While the accuracy
> >>and acceptabilty of this as a substitute for the tempered octatonic is
> >>debatable, this strikes me as especially resonant with the Skryiabiniste
> >>tradition (microtonalists know Wyschnegradsky, but Lourie, Obuchov, and
> >>- yes - Messiaen ought also be included in this grouping), in which a
> >>fixed set of pitches is used to provide the source for all melodic and
> >>harmonic activity. A harmonic series segment, to my ears, provides a
> >>particularly stable -- if not static -- set of pitches from which to
> >>work in this way. ...
> >
> > Has Tenney created music in this "harmonic
> > octatonic"?
>
> I know that he has composed a lot of octatonic music, and his Chorales
> for orchestra are based upon harmonizing a diatonic melody with
> massively parallel octatonic chords, but I'm not certain whether he's
> ever tuned the octatonic up or not.
>
> >
> >>... Moreover, it seems to me that strategic use of
> >>inversions, for example, gradually allowing the more complex
> >>relationship to come into play (i.e. letting the 11, 13, 17, 19 emerge
> >>in the bass) can create some rather dynamic large scale structures that
> >>would be inaudible in a tempered rendition. ...
> >
> > The idea appeals. Does "can create" mean "has
> > created"? Do you have any example of this kind
> > of large-scale work in the "harmonic octatonic"?
>
> Not, to my knowledge, in just intonation. But similar strategies can be
> heard in some of Skryabin's late music (albeit tempered), or in the work
> of Kraig Grady, who sometimes uses inversions to deploy his just arrays.
> >
> >
> >>... (Let's agree: jokes these
> >>days about extraordinary renditions are off the table).
> >
> > Sorry, don't get it.
>
> see:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Rendition

Agreed, that is no joke. To pervert, not only
the course of justice, but also the English
language, in such a self-serving way is quite
appalling.

Thank you for the information.

Regards,
Yahya
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Brother Yahya, two concepts: qavm-ez zalimin bi-dadgar wa ummet-i hainoon
ve'l A'ver.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@melbpc.org.au>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 17 Aral�k 2005 Cumartesi 16:52
Subject: [tuning] Re: A JI realisation of Messiaen's octatonic (was:
Schoenberg, serliasim, 12-edo

SNIP

> >
> > see:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_Rendition
>
> Agreed, that is no joke. To pervert, not only
> the course of justice, but also the English
> language, in such a self-serving way is quite
> appalling.
>
> Thank you for the information.
>
> Regards,
> Yahya
> --